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Using figures from one figure range to "count as" another figure range entirely is probably where I would draw the line. If you wanted your Space Marines to "count as" Imperial Guard, I'd walk away from the table.

On the other hand, if you took time to convert and detail things properly, such as converting Eldar to be Dark Eldar or Squats to be Imperial Guard, I'd probably be willing to play against you. As long as you didn't just throw down a unit of Guardians and say they "count as" Wyches.

Taking animals, making mounts out of them, and calling them "bikes" in your Space Marine army probably wouldn't bother me.

Breotan wrote:Taking animals, making mounts out of them, and calling them "bikes" in your Space Marine army probably wouldn't bother me.

Yeah, that would be awesome, unless the codex also had seperate rules for "animal mounted space marines", which is basically what the magic bikes poster wants to do.

studderingdave wrote:anyone have a problem with my deffwing? mega armor nobz as terminators, using the dark angels codex.

Me likey all that paint scheme scares me like an old horse seeing a glue factory.

ph34r wrote:

Honestly, many of your ideas are too far into the "cut corners rather than create a creative counts-as" zone. Are your tech marines converted at all? If so how much? I don't know if techmarines were around at all pre-heresy for one. That would mean a power fist, and every servo arm ending in an obliterator gun. If you did that converting it should be good. Stock techmarines would just seem a bit lazy.

Sorry, but bikes -> thunderwolf cavalry just wouldn't fly for me. Bikes are a unit in the book, using bikes as thunderwolf cavalry would qualify for "proxy" rather than "counts as". If you really want to do a full army of bikes as thunderwolves, you would have to seriously bulk them out for the toughness: straight up 5, multiple wounds, multiple attacks, rending, strength 5. I would expect to see armor plates, giant chainsaws/rotary blades or something in front for the rending and bike attacks... just something. A bike is +1 toughness. How come yours also provide t5 for instant death, multiple wounds, attacks, strength, and rending?

So other than "I just don't like it" and "I think you're just trying to cut corners" (super insulting by the by, thanks), you don't have a real reason why you think I'm doing something wrong?

I'll keep my "magic" Thunderwulf bikes, thanks for the reply.

Bunker wrote:I've been following this thread, and I have a question for the participants.

I play Death Guard. Right now, they are painted as Pre-Heresy and played as a Chaos army (regular marines, no spikes). I use Techmarines as Obliterators for two reasons:

1) They're 10 bucks cheaper
2) They fit in with the theme

I've heard some people tell me that it's too confusing, but most just say they really like the idea and it fits the theme. What are your thoughts on it? Am I wrong to do so? Am I wrong to expect that when I say to my opponent "these dudes here are Obliterators", he understands it?

Secondly, I am expanding the army now to be able to play them as Space Wolves. The main reason is that it gives me a competitive army while minimizing the amount of models I have to buy (17 models turns my current army into a 1750 SW army). I will be using bikes as Thunderwulf Cavalry. They will all be armed properly (all with Storm Shields, one with TH/SS). My Wolf Lord will also be on a bike, with all his equipment modeled properly (WC/SS). They will all be painted in the pre-Heresy Death Guard colours

I had one GW staffer tell me that this was "cheating" and if I wanted to play Space Wolves, they should BE Space Wolves, not just my Death Guard with some new models thrown in. He also complained that "the Death Guard wouldn't act like Space Wolves if they were still around". Barring that he may have just been trying to drum up a new army sale, is there anything wrong with what I plan to do? I get that I may have to explain to people that "no, this isn't a bike, it's Thunderwulf Cavalry" but most of my gaming group understands that I don't like the way Space Wolves look, just like I don't like the Spikey Marine look of Chaos. Plus I really love the Death Guard story.

This is a good example of bad counts as, due to:
1.pre-heresy death guard in no way resemble space wolves war style (a pre-heresy world eater army would be fine as it would fight wars in a similar way to space wolve
2.just using standard bikes to represent thunderwolves is proxy, making bigger, badder ass bikes would be counts as (a good example of counts as cavalry would be using lizards for a death world rough riders or cyber hounds for a forge world rough riders)
3.techmarines with conversions would count as oblits, but not if it was just techmarines. (a good example would be making a massive tau battle suit by using a hammerhead, there is one in the dakka gallery as long as it covers the same area and is WYSIWYG in the weapons department the its ok or great depending on the conversion)
4.you are using the same model to represent two different things, bike equals bike or TWC


A counts as army should be a corerent force with a theme, such as the orks as deathwing in an earlier post, or the robot orks count as necron on the dakka blog, or in a classic WD there was a army of death world air support, that used heavily converted landspeeders with WYSIWYG weapons to represent tanks and judge dredd hoverboards as rough rider mounts. Its all about effort and you seem to have/will be putting none into this army

BluntmanDC wrote:

This is a good example of bad counts as, due to:
1.pre-heresy death guard in no way resemble space wolves war style (a pre-heresy world eater army would be fine as it would fight wars in a similar way to space wolve
2.just using standard bikes to represent thunderwolves is proxy, making bigger, badder ass bikes would be counts as (a good example of counts as cavalry would be using lizards for a death world rough riders or cyber hounds for a forge world rough riders)
3.techmarines with conversions would count as oblits, but not if it was just techmarines.
4.you are using the same model to represent two different things, bike equals bike or TWC


A counts as army should be a corerent force with a theme, such as the orks as deathwing in an earlier post, or the robot orks count as necron on the dakka blog, or in a classic WD there was a army of death world air support, that used heavily converted landspeeders with WYSIWYG weapons to represent tanks and judge dredd hoverboards as rough rider mounts. Its all about effort and you seem to have/will be putting none into army

This is a great example of not bothering to read or check referenced models.

1) fair enough, another "not really a reason to be upset" reply
2) they AREN'T standard bikes, they will have all of the necessary wargear to be armed properly.
3) straight up techmarines have the same weapons modeled as the current oblits are allowed to have. Melta, plasma, flamer. Also, as I stated, I'm trying to make them look as Codex-chapter like as possible, thus no conversions
4) and again, no I'm not. I have no intention of using Swiftclaws. None at all

Sheesh, read the post next time, wouldya?

Trying to not be too insulting, I have to ask:

Do most of you guys ranting and raving about counts-as have trouble finding a game? I couldn't imagine most of you getting games easily if you complained on the table like you do here.

Bunker wrote:
This is a great example of not bothering to read or check referenced models.

1) fair enough, another "not really a reason to be upset" reply
2) they AREN'T standard bikes, they will have all of the necessary wargear to be armed properly.
3) straight up techmarines have the same weapons modeled as the current oblits are allowed to have. Melta, plasma, flamer. Also, as I stated, I'm trying to make them look as Codex-chapter like as possible, thus no conversions
4) and again, no I'm not. I have no intention of using Swiftclaws. None at all

Sheesh, read the post next time, wouldya?

Trying to not be too insulting, I have to ask:

Do most of you guys ranting and raving about counts-as have trouble finding a game? I couldn't imagine most of you getting games easily if you complained on the table like you do here.

I read your post, you said your wolf lord was on a bike (that was point 4), you said nothing of converting your bikes, just the wepons. We all get games cos most people like to play people who bring armies not a random collection of models, warhammer and warhammer 40k is a community based game, what you have described as an 'counts-as army' is just you saying 'my army is a bit hard to play with this list so i'll pick another' its disrespectful to other gamers.

Carnuss wrote:I'm trying to take all of this in, but it's confusing. Are you suggesting that it isn't OK to play with a roll of quarters, 3 legos, and a cardboard cutout of Peter Pan to represent your HQ? That's pretty uptight, but I guess everyone has to have their standards.

My preferences:

- pennies = boyz (sluggas)
- nickels = Nobs
- dimes = burnas
- quarter face up = warboss
- paper cutout = big mek
- face down playing card = battle wagon
- face up playing card = trukk
- bobblehead = ruins
- candy bar = difficult terrain
- thumb tacks = dangerous terrain

It's straightforward and easy to understand. Sometimes if I forget to bring one of my rolls of pennies, I just ask for change at the store after buying a drink. Sure, it's an expensive hobby, and could set you back 6 or 7 bucks in an apocalypse battle, but to me, money is no object.

*sigh*

Thats not a counts as army. Thats a straight folward proxy army, whichis something completely different.'

And while easy to follow, wouldnt fly with me, and I'm, easy going. Most, if not all, of the items arent even the right size base wise. PLaying card for a battlewagon or a trukk? Even the old ork trukks are bigger than a playing cards

Bunker, while still a bit subjective, there do appear to be some consistent and (at least to me) understandable points to the recent criticisms of your Death Guard / SW / Counts As. I don’t think characterizing people’s opinions as “ranting and raving” contributes usefully to the dialogue.

1. From what you describe, apart from the weapons swap, on the bikes you’re using a straight model substitution of another unit available in the same army. This can engender confusion, and can give opponents the impression that you’re doing it just to save work and money. This does little to endear the models to your opponent. Bikes and TWC have very different stats and roles. If the reason for the Counts As is because the TWC are unavailable, and/or because you don’t like those models, actually converting the bikes themselves to be bigger, badder, buffer and more Choppy will make the Counts As more obvious and intuitive for your opponents, and will generally make them happier with it.
2. With the techmarines, have you also modeled on Lascannons/Plasmacannons/multimeltas? The regular servo-harness does come with special weapons, but they’re not (IIRC) twin-linked, nor do they include any of the heavy weapons that oblits customarily use. Again, an actual conversion to the stock model to make it more obvious that its capabilities are those of an Obliterator, possibly also including putting it on a 40mm base like an Oblit, will make the Counts As more intuitive and clear, and show your opponent that you’re making an effort to add something cool to the game- not just save money with an unrepresentative model.
3. I also was a bit curious about the Wolf Lord on a Bike. If he’s actually another Counts-As TWC rider, and there are no actual bikes in the army, that’s not so bad. If he’s really on a bike, then it’s definitely bad

I totally understand the appeal of doing what you’re doing. My main army was a Dark Angels army and now mostly play them as Fallen, using the CSM codex. But I did paint up Obliterators, not just convert my old Techmarine and do more like him, though that would have been considerably cheaper. That’s a personal choice, but I decided that I preferred to not test my opponents’ tolerance.

Speaking more generally, I think Age of Egos has the best approach on this. When you utilize Counts As, you really should come at it from the assumption that this is something with significant potential to confuse or annoy an opponent, and so it’s best to err on the side of caution in making things as clear as possible.

When opponents see a substitution which is because an old unit was invalidated by GW, or appears to be because the owner wanted to convert a cool or unique model, it elicits their sympathy and enthusiasm. The Counts-As player is making use of an old unit or adding something cool to the game. When an opponent sees a substitution which appears to be simply to save the owner money or effort, which is not as clear as it could be, it may elicit annoyance. As in that case it can feel like the owner is prioritizing their money and convenience over the quality of the shared game experience.

This is the perfect exaple of what a counts-as army should be like:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271328.page

Bunker wrote:


2) they AREN'T standard bikes, they will have all of the necessary wargear to be armed properly.

except for the key piece of eargear, the core of the model... Being Calvary which allows a 12" assault and other different rules. Why is it so hard to have a unit of bikes for when you use an armylist that uses bikes and a themed unit of cavalry for when you use them as Space wolves? If you are going to be an EVERYMARINE list, at least you could do is make appropriately converted models for the unique codex-specific units that have the actual wargear, not just the wargear you feel like modeling and ignoring that which you do not.

3) straight up techmarines have the same weapons modeled as the current oblits are allowed to have. Melta, plasma, flamer. Also, as I stated, I'm trying to make them look as Codex-chapter like as possible, thus no conversions

That seems like a bit of a cop out. many models are more than straight wargear and weapons. What is the difference between a Kommando and a Slugga boy? I guarantee opponents expect modeled distinction regardless of weapons and would be upset to see Kommandos with special rules being indistinguishable from a generic ork. Obliterators have weapons a Tech marine cannot have as well as tech marines have weapons Obliterators do not have. Giving a tech marine all the weapon options and only using 1 per game isn't WYSIWYG. I can't make a Warboss with a Big Choppa and PK in Mega armor and say he can 'count' as a Megaboss or a heavy armored choppa boss and he is WYSIWYG because he has the weapon options even though they are illegal and redudant.

And there is a significant difference between a 2+/5i+ terminator armor of an Oblit and a 2+ artificer armor of a tech marine. This is a straight up proxy not even an attempt of 'counts as'

Sheesh, read the post next time, wouldya?

Trying to not be too insulting, I have to ask:

yes you were. Classic defense of people who don't like don't like critisisim and want to invalidate the critisizm by destroying the people doing the critisizing. "no one cares what they think because they are a miniroty of players or such a jerk they are invalid"

Do most of you guys ranting and raving about counts-as have trouble finding a game? I couldn't imagine most of you getting games easily if you complained on the table like you do here.

You have clearly said your motivation is avoiding the work and expendature of modeling and being able to use the latest 'competitive' list.

If I was going to add SW to my EVERYMARINE army, I could probably use 90% of my existing models as valid units with no problem, and I would make the minimal effort to appropriately model the codex specific units like TWC instead of just slapping bikes around. A Bike is no more Calvary than a Bike is a Jetpack. How many TWC do you plan to run? Modeling 5 or so cavalry models is going to destroy your army and break the bank? Its not like you are a white scars army so bikes are not a core feature of your army... The minimal effort shows a lot of respect to opponents and people pick up on that. Telling someone "this obliterator is a techmarine and you are a friendless a-hole for not agreeing with me." isn't respect.

These examples are 'PROXIES'. And most people allow Proxies when agreed to before hand with the understanding that they are a temporary thing. Don't show up to play a real game with Proxies and claim 'counts as' because as someone mentioned, apparently lots of people don't seem to understand the definition of the term.

Modquisition on:
Politeness people, lets all remember Dakka rule #1.

A Bike is no more Calvary than a Bike is a Jetpack.

Actually if you didn't have bikers in your army, that sounds kind of cool-jetbike equipped white scar CC toops as jump marines. I kind of like that.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The difference is that good counts as armies are simple, and don't have strong precedents for how they "should" be played. If using something with roots, don't stray so far afield.

As always YMMV.

I can sincerely appreciate that and respect your position.

Outside of two counts as, everything is WYSIWYG.

The vanilla SM dex really didn't afford those options. Second, I strongly dislike the play style of the vanilla dex as I prefer to be aggressive with tactical squads and get out of rhinos...which again the SW dex provided. Mostly however, it was the ability of the SW codex to capture the theme of my army at the siege of Terra with the conversions I'll be bringing.

Again though, I completely respect your position John and hold no animosity for your disagreement. Mileage does vary!

I'm not against you at all, and I hope that's clear, too.

It's some nice modeling, but it just doesn't scream "cavalry" when I look at those jetbikes. I could see them standing in as Attack Bikes or even regular bikes. Or Characters on Bikes. But making the leap to cavalry just isn't intuitive. If they were a Marine on some sort of walker platform, preferably quadrupedal, but even bipedal would work, I'd be far more charitable in my assessment. To me, it seems like an apples / oranges thing.

I have similar distaste for the vanilla SM book, and I understand that you're doing a WS army at the Siege of Terra, but you never considered CSM rules for your Heresy-era army?

Anyhow, I completely respect you and the work you're doing. I just don't think that WS Jetbikes are well-represented by SW Thunderwolf Cavalry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bunker wrote:This is a great example of not bothering to read or check referenced models.

Where are the pictures of the models in question?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BluntmanDC wrote:This is the perfect exaple of what a counts-as army should be like:

Those Orkrons are great. Clear, simple conversions.

BrookM wrote:To me personally a masterful execution of the proposed theme is all the reason I need.

Well with that quote in mind, i hereby would like to show off my armies,
first up is my Khrave and Barghesi army.

Yes it all counts as Orks and yes every single model is converted, and no this was not a cheaper option than doing just normal Orks, infact the whole army costs well over £500!!!! I have no idea how much 3000 points of Orks would cost but i guess alot less.
So as a prove master (ha) of making converted armies (google Rise of the Humanids to see my other converted counts as army) I would like to throw my opion into the ring. It really dicks me off when i face off against people who use coke cans as russ's and such and what kills me even more if to have that player lord it over me coz their mighty pritstick titan kills half my mobs in one turn (yeah that happened once). If your going to do a counts as army then do it for the right reasons i.e, cos there are no models or rules for your xeno race or cos G.W havent got round to doing the ab mech army yet. If your doing cos you want your army to win 8 out 10 of games instead of your usaul 7 out of ten then your just missing the point of counts as. This should be a fun hobby of painting and modeling or just playing for fun. If you need to be a power gamer your in the wrong hobby and you should stick to chess or something. Oh dear i'm rambling on (this is why i just read and not post!)
Anyway i hope people like looking at my army again! And i look forward to all the prasie ! (he he he!)

Also i think the post about using coins was a joke, i hope it was. Cos if i ever played you expect to be a few quid shorter at the end of the game!

I once played a guy who (fairly unapologetically) used quarters to fill out a SM squad. Oh, and Necron Warriors too. Although I guess those are technically MEqs, unlike the two bits.

This was at a GW Grand Tournament. Seriously.

I could have complained to the staff, but I decided to take the high road, bite my tongue and just get through the game. And as proof that karma doesn't really exist, I ended up losing to the guy. *facepalm*

gorgon wrote:I once played a guy who (fairly unapologetically) used quarters to fill out a SM squad. Oh, and Necron Warriors too. Although I guess those are technically MEqs, unlike the two bits.

This was at a GW Grand Tournament. Seriously.

I could have complained to the staff, but I decided to take the high road, bite my tongue and just get through the game. And as proof that karma doesn't really exist, I ended up losing to the guy. *facepalm*

It's hard not to get a cover save when you're < 1/16" tall...

Bunker wrote:So other than "I just don't like it" and "I think you're just trying to cut corners" (super insulting by the by, thanks), you don't have a real reason why you think I'm doing something wrong?

I'll keep my "magic" Thunderwulf bikes, thanks for the reply.

You're conveniently forgetting the most important ones: you have no justification for why your bikes get +1str +1T +1W +3 attacks and rending, and your bikes are already a unit in the same codex.
I see how you have ignored my saying this in every way possible, including many examples, and feel like you are just looking for pats on the back. Sorry, none here.
In conclusion
1. it looks like you are trying to cut corners, either way
2. you haven't even tried to say how you might convert your bikes to justify massive stat increases worthy of an elephant sized wolf that can tear tanks apart and take a lascannon to the face
3. bikes are already a unit in your codex.
In conclusion, I don't like your idea. This is not one of my reasons for why it is wrong, I don't like it because I think it is wrong.

Right now it seems like you are just hearing what you want to hear: that "the evil internet person is oppressing my creative genius just because he's a jerk". I don't like your ideas because the models already have the rules and don't match the rules you want to use them for. I mean come on, would you just say "yeah, sounds legit" to someone that brought an army of deff koptas (weapons options converted only) as nob bikerz, or warriors (weapons options converted only) as carnifexes, or guardians as howling banshees, in a non "okay, nice proxies" way?

And from a fluff perspective,

Lexicanum wrote:Mortarion ensured that his men were well-equipped and highly-trained. He also ensured that they could fight in almost any kind of atmosphere, and placed little emphasis on specialised units using jump packs or bikes.

To be honest you really picked the very worst pre-heresy legion to try to justify super-bikers, any way you go about it . The death guard used less bikers than any other legion, I see no reason why they would have uber-magic-bikers.

ph34r wrote:To be honest you really picked the very worst pre-heresy legion to try to justify super-bikers, any way you go about it . The death guard used less bikers than any other legion, I see no reason why they would have uber-magic-bikers.

Seriously... If someone was trying to stick within the pre-heresy fluff of that legion, it would make even *MORE* sense to have some form of converted cavalry based upon the home-planet's atmosphere or even the Necromacy origins of that legion. Being valid fluff and being a unique model people would be instantly more prone to understand that marine on a nasty-looking skeleton beast is a TWC while the same marine on a regular bike would be a biker.

Maybe if the codex in Question was like Orks where they have legacy Cyboar models, and Cyboar rules in 3rd edition and no current or valid rules to draw upon would people be more prone for a simple 'counts as' cavalry to bike or vice versa. Often COUNTS AS are the best fit for a model in a list, In this example, a model on a bike is best fit as the bike unit which is very available.

This thread reminds me of the rule that you shouldn't probably play anyone you wouldn't willingly go have a burger and a soda with before or after the game. If there's that much of a schism in your interp or "the right way to play", neither of you is likely to have much fun.

privateer4hire wrote:This thread reminds me of the rule that you shouldn't probably play anyone you wouldn't willingly go have a burger and a soda with before or after the game. If there's that much of a schism in your interp or "the right way to play", neither of you is likely to have much fun.

So, it makes me a dick for preferring not to play against a proxy army? I love the orkcrons and deffwing armies that have been posted in here, in fact most of the ideas are really good, but just because I say "No, bikers are actually bikers, not wolves. Look, in your codex, 'swiftclaw bikers'. They have rules." I am a bad person?

ph34r wrote:

privateer4hire wrote:This thread reminds me of the rule that you shouldn't probably play anyone you wouldn't willingly go have a burger and a soda with before or after the game. If there's that much of a schism in your interp or "the right way to play", neither of you is likely to have much fun.

So, it makes me a dick for preferring not to play against a proxy army? I love the orkcrons and deffwing armies that have been posted in here, in fact most of the ideas are really good, but just because I say "No, bikers are actually bikers, not wolves. Look, in your codex, 'swiftclaw bikers'. They have rules." I am a bad person?

Out of curiousity... what if the army on the table has no by-rules bikes? That is, what if all the bikes on the field are 'counts as' or 'proxy' Thunderwolf Cav? Or, for that matter, vice-versa?

Could you guys take it to PM? I'm concerned the thread is going to get shut down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm not against you at all, and I hope that's clear, too.

It's some nice modeling, but it just doesn't scream "cavalry" when I look at those jetbikes. I could see them standing in as Attack Bikes or even regular bikes. Or Characters on Bikes. But making the leap to cavalry just isn't intuitive. If they were a Marine on some sort of walker platform, preferably quadrupedal, but even bipedal would work, I'd be far more charitable in my assessment. To me, it seems like an apples / oranges thing.

I have similar distaste for the vanilla SM book, and I understand that you're doing a WS army at the Siege of Terra, but you never considered CSM rules for your Heresy-era army?

Anyhow, I completely respect you and the work you're doing. I just don't think that WS Jetbikes are well-represented by SW Thunderwolf Cavalry.

Well make this the most agreeable disagreement I've had on Dakka then .

I considered the Chaos dex (as others)....but was concerned on my center pieces/major conversions... fitting the bill so to speak.

Vulcan wrote:

ph34r wrote:

privateer4hire wrote:This thread reminds me of the rule that you shouldn't probably play anyone you wouldn't willingly go have a burger and a soda with before or after the game. If there's that much of a schism in your interp or "the right way to play", neither of you is likely to have much fun.

So, it makes me a dick for preferring not to play against a proxy army? I love the orkcrons and deffwing armies that have been posted in here, in fact most of the ideas are really good, but just because I say "No, bikers are actually bikers, not wolves. Look, in your codex, 'swiftclaw bikers'. They have rules." I am a bad person?

Out of curiousity... what if the army on the table has no by-rules bikes? That is, what if all the bikes on the field are 'counts as' or 'proxy' Thunderwolf Cav? Or, for that matter, vice-versa?

it would be better, as people have already posted its 'all the lascannons are missle launchers' but not 'this guys lascannon is a missle launcher, this guys lascannon is a...etc'. The main problem most of the commentators have with the death guard example is that it makes no sense as a death guard (pre or post heresy), if he want to play a SW list pick an army that fits their play style. The use of bikes as TWC is not good if they are just standard bikes, the example of using a giant chem beast like the decaying necromunda rat as a mount would make more sence for the death guard. if it was a white scars army using SW then a bike would make sense as long as its a big, armoured, blade ladden bike. i feel the key to a counts as army are:

a good theme/fluff
represent the stat lines
WYSIWYG when it comes to weapons

ph34r wrote:

privateer4hire wrote:This thread reminds me of the rule that you shouldn't probably play anyone you wouldn't willingly go have a burger and a soda with before or after the game. If there's that much of a schism in your interp or "the right way to play", neither of you is likely to have much fun.

So, it makes me a dick for preferring not to play against a proxy army? I love the orkcrons and deffwing armies that have been posted in here, in fact most of the ideas are really good, but just because I say "No, bikers are actually bikers, not wolves. Look, in your codex, 'swiftclaw bikers'. They have rules." I am a bad person?

I think you are taking his sentiment the wrong way, personally. I feel along the same lines as him.

The primary reason I enjoy playing WH40k is that there is a rather large community to game with, and I can choose to game with different people, according the the way that we enjoy playing the game. In other words, I play games so that I can socialize mainly. Beers and toy soldiers is a great way to have a good time IMHO. If someone has a force that you feel does not meet your 'standards' of gameplay, there should be no problem telling them that, in a polite fashion.

I would play against primer armies forever TBH, I am not particularly good at painting myself. I also understand that to game in many groups, people will be much less inclined to actually want to play me, if I decided to focus only on the modeling part of the game, and not so much the painting.

YMMV is very important in all of this.

Not everyone games in the same way, nor has similar expectations when they choose to play. To many, strict 'counts as' rules, simply defeats the main purpose of it in the first place; which I consider to be creativity. I like to see wild armies, and would choose to play against nothing but outlandish forces if I had the chance. This mainly comes down to my taste in miniatures, while I enjoy the GW model lines for the most part, I simply don't enjoy the spectacle of most armies. Basically requiring people to put in enourmous amounts of hours, just to satisfy my taste in gaming, has never really been a very effective way for me to find games. Especially when my playable WH40k army takes a backseat investment wise, to my other projects.

BluntmanDC wrote:The use of bikes as TWC is not good if they are just standard bikes, the example of using a giant chem beast like the decaying necromunda rat as a mount would make more sence for the death guard.

Dear lord, that sounds outrageously awesome... LINK ME TO PICS. I DEMAND IT!!!

Wrexasaur wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:The use of bikes as TWC is not good if they are just standard bikes, the example of using a giant chem beast like the decaying necromunda rat as a mount would make more sence for the death guard.

Dear lord, that sounds outrageously awesome... LINK ME TO PICS. I DEMAND IT!!!

I think the model in question is the Mordheim Thing in the Woods - google it if you want pics.

By memory, it's roughly 3" long, so it'd actually be a very good choice for a Cavalry mount for a Death Guard model.

Same with a converted Juggernaut. Or Rhinox. Or Carnifex / Trygon. Something *BIG*.

Oh, I was wondering if anyone had seen pics, or had actually made that conversion.

Wait... Carnifex riders? That... does sound pretty freaking awesome.

Vulcan wrote:

ph34r wrote:

privateer4hire wrote:This thread reminds me of the rule that you shouldn't probably play anyone you wouldn't willingly go have a burger and a soda with before or after the game. If there's that much of a schism in your interp or "the right way to play", neither of you is likely to have much fun.

So, it makes me a dick for preferring not to play against a proxy army? I love the orkcrons and deffwing armies that have been posted in here, in fact most of the ideas are really good, but just because I say "No, bikers are actually bikers, not wolves. Look, in your codex, 'swiftclaw bikers'. They have rules." I am a bad person?

Out of curiousity... what if the army on the table has no by-rules bikes? That is, what if all the bikes on the field are 'counts as' or 'proxy' Thunderwolf Cav? Or, for that matter, vice-versa?

It would be better, but I would still hope that the person would try to represent the units capabilities in modeling.

BluntmanDC wrote:it would be better, as people have already posted its 'all the lascannons are missle launchers' but not 'this guys lascannon is a missle launcher, this guys lascannon is a...etc'. The main problem most of the commentators have with the death guard example is that it makes no sense as a death guard (pre or post heresy), if he want to play a SW list pick an army that fits their play style. The use of bikes as TWC is not good if they are just standard bikes, the example of using a giant chem beast like the decaying necromunda rat as a mount would make more sence for the death guard. if it was a white scars army using SW then a bike would make sense as long as its a big, armoured, blade ladden bike. i feel the key to a counts as army are:

a good theme/fluff
represent the stat lines
WYSIWYG when it comes to weapons

This is exactly what I am saying, do those 3 things and you're good to go.

I think some posters are limiting themselves and due to successful branding from GW are unable to think outside the box. The big question on count as is: are you playing for the fluff, the rules, the miniatures? If you are in the fluff thing somebody putting down a bunch of orks in his IG army as stormtroopers might give you the shivers but from a rule wise PoV it´s no big deal. There is no right way to play as long as you are having fun.

So who is GW/random guy to say (other than in GW tournaments and stores ofc) which codex and miniatures should I use. If you are playing in a friendly environment and want to use necrons with the BA codex why should some scream bloody murder at the sight of you army as long as said army is consistent with itself? Why not play a mix of Gumdam models and IG infantry under the nid codex, again as long as figure A is used as unit 1 and only unit 1?. I´ll admit that anybody can refuse to play anytime he wants but the attitude of some dismissing others out of hand with some post is kind of snobbish.

I play Eldar because I like the way the codex was designed but out of 120+ figures I only have a shadowseer, Maugan Ra, a box of Sscorpions, a box of converted SGuardians and 4 gravtanks. Can you refuse to play me? Of course! and I wont be offended... well perhaps a little bit depending how you word your refusal but to say that using a Tamiya tank with some weapon swaps as my Chimera is lazy because I did not rivet it to the 150% it´s offensive because I made sure that there is an internal consistency in my army units with similar figures for the same unit, colors, etc and kind of missing the point written in the page number 2 of the rulebook.

To illustrate this, an example of my 40k count as IG and Eldar armies even if the photo is a little bit blurry.



From left to right: Tamiya LRBT, Tamiya Chimera,
AC HWT (GW, Urban War and bits), IG (Warzone pus bits), Harlequin (Infinity), FDragon (Warzone), Wraithlord (Infinity), Sscorpion (GW), DA (Warzone)
PCS with count as plasma gunner (Warzone and GW plus bits), Warlock and Farseer (Warzone), HB (Urban War) Storm Guardian (GW plus bits)

You might like it or not, can play me or not, but those are the armies I wanted to build and play and as far as I´m concerned if you are playing like I do I won´t care about your count as.

M.

ph34r wrote:

privateer4hire wrote:This thread reminds me of the rule that you shouldn't probably play anyone you wouldn't willingly go have a burger and a soda with before or after the game. If there's that much of a schism in your interp or "the right way to play", neither of you is likely to have much fun.

So, it makes me a dick for preferring not to play against a proxy army? I love the orkcrons and deffwing armies that have been posted in here, in fact most of the ideas are really good, but just because I say "No, bikers are actually bikers, not wolves. Look, in your codex, 'swiftclaw bikers'. They have rules." I am a bad person?

????

I basically said that if me and another player don't get along well enough to talk about whatever and maybe grab a soda and otherwise socialize normally, then we may not be civil enough to understand each other's heresy views of how you should play with little plastic/lead soldiers.

If an opponent has you seething by the time he's halfway through deployment because you don't like---- a comment he made, clothes he's wearing, his choice to field WarZone guys as IG, preference of soft drink, fill-in-the-blank---you probably ain't gonna have a fun game with one another.

If my counts as makes somebody mad, pretty sure we're going to disagree more readilly on LOS, casualty allocation, and/or interp of one or more rules.

It has nothing to do with the person. It's not that I won't like you if you proxy your army, it's that I would not feel inclined to play against someone who has made your choices in modeling that I view as not fluffy, not modeled. If I've come to play a game of 40k I will choose to play it against someone that has put some thought/effort into their army, over someone that is basically proxying.

Basically, if you seemed like a great guy and your models were painted awesome etc sure I'd play you. However if you are just a random guy, and there are other random guys, I'll just play against one whose army doesn't feel proxied to me. If I were rating you in a tournament, I would rate your modeling low due to your units not matching what you want their rules to be.