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I'm not nerd-raging, but you obviously took the unit for power reasons. (You even said so in the post)

Not because you enjoy the fluff of the unit itself.

Sounds to me like you're looking for justification for your power choice, and a pat on the back. As a neutral observer, I will not.

Defiler wrote:I'm not nerd-raging, but you obviously took the unit for power reasons. (You even said so in the post)

Not because you enjoy the fluff of the unit itself.

Sounds to me like you're looking for justification for your power choice, and a pat on the back. As a neutral observer, I will not.

I didn't say for power reasons, necessarily. I think they would be fun to use (something completely different than vanilla SM units) and would be an interesting modeling project. I've seen a lot of 4x4 pics, and thought it might be fun to try my hand at something along those lines and actually use it on the tabletop without having to create a SW army from scratch.

That being said... would your answer be any different had I painted my vanilla SM guys some random color such as orange, avoiding any chapter specific iconography?

Its all about how much effort. Not prettifulness, just don't spend 30 seconds (to make) on it have it take up 5X the space it usually would and talk with your opponent first and you've put in effort for them to play you.

Gornall wrote:
I didn't say for power reasons, necessarily. I think they would be fun to use (something completely different than vanilla SM units) ...

Gornall, in his blog wrote:
Well, I've seen several posts concerning the new SW Thunderwolf Cav and considering I'm building my Lions around that dex.....and Thunderwolf Cav are so good, time to use something as a counts as.

Sounds to me like you did.

Not my blog. I'm not affiliated with the OP in anyway... just asking a related question.

Should have: Similar model 'footprint'.

Should not be: Too much of a stretch of the imagination to place the mini to it's counterpart, so that a ranged heavy weapon carrier is a ranged heavy weapon carrier, a melee command figure is a melee command figure, a caster is a caster etc.

Other than that I'm quite happy, also really enjoy cleverly sculpted counts as armies, Gorgon's is a peach.

Defiler wrote:

Gornall wrote:
I didn't say for power reasons, necessarily. I think they would be fun to use (something completely different than vanilla SM units) ...

Gornall, in his blog wrote:
Well, I've seen several posts concerning the new SW Thunderwolf Cav and considering I'm building my Lions around that dex.....and Thunderwolf Cav are so good, time to use something as a counts as.

Sounds to me like you did.

Obvious troll is obvious...

You sure do like to start trouble, don't you?

Why does it matter if he just wants to take it as competitive? hell, i know i take termicide squads in my chaos army because they are great for popping tanks, and my chaos guys are renegades too!

What makes me say 'too much' to Counts As?

This.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I had posted a pic of my jetbikes (converted by AshAxe) on Dakka awhile ago and it sparked a bit of debate. Unfortunately, I didn't respond in a timely manner and it disappeared. Rather than necro the thread, I thought I would start another; Does "Counts As" armies tick you off? For example, my bikes that started the debate;

http://op40k.blogspot.com/2009/10/my-celestial-lions-relic-bike-squad.html

Can I ask a stupid and really off-topic question.

At that link, there is a map of the 40K Milky Way. It has a blow-out to two different systems - Anti-Mar and Angelus. How did you make those pics?

carmachu wrote:Like a soda bottle for a carnifex?

Hello boys!




I hope someone gets the reference...

Sneezypanda wrote:

Defiler wrote:

Gornall wrote:
I didn't say for power reasons, necessarily. I think they would be fun to use (something completely different than vanilla SM units) ...

Gornall, in his blog wrote:
Well, I've seen several posts concerning the new SW Thunderwolf Cav and considering I'm building my Lions around that dex.....and Thunderwolf Cav are so good, time to use something as a counts as.

Sounds to me like you did.

Obvious troll is obvious...

You sure do like to start trouble, don't you?

Why does it matter if he just wants to take it as competitive? hell, i know i take termicide squads in my chaos army because they are great for popping tanks, and my chaos guys are renegades too!

Do I know you?

That's right, I don't. Because you're a nobody. Go back to 4chan you quote repeating drone.


Gornall, If that's not you in the blog - why are you responding, to responses meant for the OP?

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Should have: Similar model 'footprint'.

Should not be: Too much of a stretch of the imagination to place the mini to it's counterpart, so that a ranged heavy weapon carrier is a ranged heavy weapon carrier, a melee command figure is a melee command figure, a caster is a caster etc.

For some reason, IG players have a constant desire to build really unacceptable Sentinel proxies. You can't substitute a 4x4 or a tankette for a walker, for crying out loud. Walkers are walkers, and what separates them from other vehicles is them being able to fight in close combat.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Walkers are walkers, and what separates them from other vehicles is them being able to fight in close combat.

Walk out onto the highway and tell me that cars can't win at close combat.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Walkers are walkers, and what separates them from other vehicles is them being able to fight in close combat.

Walk out onto the highway and tell me that cars can't win at close combat.

apparently in Britain cars have to drive just slow enough so that people have time to get out of the way and decide if they are going to say "bugger it" and run home.

There are rules for tank shock. I always figure that the sentinel/buggy counts as aren't beefy enough to push through a crowd without getting themselves killed. Same reason why non-tank vehicles can't tank shock I guess?

ph34r wrote:There are rules for tank shock. I always figure that the sentinel/buggy counts as aren't beefy enough to push through a crowd without getting themselves killed. Same reason why non-tank vehicles can't tank shock I guess?

yeah i know right? a giant hulking robot with 2 big arse chainsaws for hands just screams "lets swarm around it and not retreat under ANY circumstances!!!"

I personally don't give a damn so long as it's obvious what the unit is meant to represent and has the same footprint.

Defiler wrote:Do I know you?

That's right, I don't. Because you're a nobody.

Hate to break it to you, but so are you, pal. We're all nobodies here.

So why does it matter if he does take the unit for "power reasons" or not, anyway? Why is that a bad thing?

Taking the OP's Celestail ions as an example. Their force counts as Space Wolves, no problem with this so long as the models fit the purpose described, lots of gamers are doing this at the moment. Looking at the Jetbikes I am conflicted between seeing them as 'counts as' and 'proxy'.

On the one hand they fit the purpose of TWC on the other I don't 'believe' they can act as TWC.

As to Gornall's question if you chose to take your blue marines and wanted to count them as Space Wolves then thats fine, however. I wouldn't believe they were SW and would consider the models proxies. I would say this if they were pink green yellow stone black red polka dotted or any other colour combination.

There is no law against it but when the Blood Angels dex arrives what will the Celestial Lions and their jet bikes count as then? (not having a go at the OP just using for focus)

Does any of this preclude enjoyment of the game? not really but it does start to loose its shine when blue starts counting as grey counting as black counting as green.

Mr. Burning wrote:There is no law against it but when the Blood Angels dex arrives what will the Celestial Lions and their jet bikes count as then?

The answer should be obvious: vampires riding giant vampire bats, that may/may not also sparkle.

ph34r wrote:They are cool and all, but it annoys me that they are closer to another unit in the codex, bikers, than they are to what they are representing.
EDIT: and as nice as those are, they really do not scream TWC at all to me. They have storm bolters, which TWC do not have. They are jetbikes, not cavalry. And they definitely do not scream "4 attacks, strength 5, rending" to me.

This.

You've converted a really cool jetbike squadron. But they're jetbikes. At most, they should count as bikes, or maybe Landspeeder Squadrons. Given that we all know what bikes can do, what jetbikes can do, and what landspeeders can do, and that two of these examples are actually present in the SM codex, it is quite the stretch to believe they are TWC. I would not play against them.

If you want to convert counts-as TWC, then convert some guys riding lions. Or giant monster lions. Or, you know, something that looks like a marine on a great big monster, because that's what TWC are....

Sidstyler wrote:I personally don't give a damn so long as it's obvious what the unit is meant to represent and has the same footprint.

Defiler wrote:Do I know you?

That's right, I don't. Because you're a nobody.

Hate to break it to you, but so are you, pal. We're all nobodies here.

So why does it matter if he does take the unit for "power reasons" or not, anyway? Why is that a bad thing?

thanks sidstyler, nice to know TO members back up one another!

I didn't even know that was from 4chan, looks like someone has been using 4chan more than me but anyway, i agree with the guy below me, they do resemble units that are in the current codex. Although they don't really look like other jet bikes or bikes i think more distinction could be made for them.

I wasn't really backing anyone up in particular, I would have said the same regardless.

your just supposed to go with it, geez

Defiler wrote:I'm not nerd-raging, but you obviously took the unit for power reasons. (You even said so in the post)

Not because you enjoy the fluff of the unit itself.

Sounds to me like you're looking for justification for your power choice, and a pat on the back. As a neutral observer, I will not.

Neutral observer? He didn't ask for your judgment on his reasons, just the counts as rule. A
person asking questions in a thread doesn't have to be the original poster or the original one
referenced. He read the thread, he had a question, and instead of starting a new thread
about his question he asked here.

As for the later exchanges:

"I'm nobody! Who are you?" by Emily Dickinson


I'm nobody! Who are you?
Are you nobody, too?
Then there's a pair of us — don't tell!
They'd banish us, you know.

How dreary to be somebody!
How public, like a frog
To tell your name the livelong day
To an admiring bog!

AgeOfEgos wrote:I had posted a pic of my jetbikes (converted by AshAxe) on Dakka awhile ago and it sparked a bit of debate. Unfortunately, I didn't respond in a timely manner and it disappeared. Rather than necro the thread, I thought I would start another; Does "Counts As" armies tick you off? For example, my bikes that started the debate;

http://op40k.blogspot.com/2009/10/my-celestial-lions-relic-bike-squad.html


Now, lets say the bikes were created for a Scars Heresy force (Which I am now using them for)...so no fluff rage at the lack of jetbikes . How angry would this make you as counts as TWC (To represent the damaged bikes, building up momentum..so they start slow then speed up, honor guard to represent their attacks/wounds, etc)? Or, to put it bluntly, if a player were to sit down across from you and say "I'm using the SW dex for my Heresy marines, everything is WYSIWYG except the Heresy jetbikes represent TWC"...would you rage?


Another example, this gorgeous army;

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Gorgon%27s_Genestealer_Cult



Big thumbs up from me, gorgeous with many unique ideas...however the first 5 or so times playing it would be confusing (Remembering what was what). Personally, I would gladly accept that confusion to take pics of my army fighting that beauty, what about you? When does "Counts As" go to far for you?

The first list noted-bikes only? Who cares? Only a nattering nabob would object. Like deer running from cheetah, anoyone objecting would be the mouth breathers of society and you wouldn't want to waste 2 hours of your life playing them in the first place.

I'd play the second in a heart beat in a friendly game. I would not bring that to a tourney however, as its too confusing given the limited time of tournament games.

Sidstyler wrote:Hate to break it to you, but so are you, pal. We're all nobodies here.

Speak for yourself, Mr. Who-Ever-You-Are!

Well, I like Counts as armies. I use Chaos Marines as a Counts As Mechanicus Explorator Force. Defiler counts as a Knight, standard Marines count as Mechanicus Secutors, Daemon Prince is a Magos Militant, things like that. So far no one has had any complaints and have been happy to fight them, so...

Back to the Main Thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Image:LongRiders
(image pinched from http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Counts_As_Space_Marines_Army_Profiles)
Now THIS is a counts as TWC. (Not that GW would let it through the door of their tournaments)

Everyone will have their own ideas of what is acceptable and what isn't. As far as I can see there tends to be four main reasons for "counts as"

1 The actual model doesn't exist, so another is used to represent them
2 A change of rules has made someones beautifuly painted army illegal, they don't want to mess up their painting so they turn to "counts as"
3 The player does not have the money to update his force or buy new models
4 A player wants to try out a new unit using counts as models before comiting to purchase them.

There are probably more but I cant think of them right now.

I don't have too much of a problem as long as either an effort has been made to at least make the model look like what it is trying to represent or that it is a similar equivilant. Also that these are clearly agreed and noted before any game, nothing is worse than playing someone who's marines keep turning from devastators to assualt marines whenever it suits them.

Fpr spme reason this thread has reminded me of the episode of Bottom where Ritchie and Eddie decide to have a game of chess using Ritchies antique board, unfortuanately Eddie has pawned most of the peices to pay for booze so they use frozen prawns as pawns, a bottle of ketchup for a rook and a Spiderman bubble bath for a Queen!

ArbitorIan wrote:

ph34r wrote:They are cool and all, but it annoys me that they are closer to another unit in the codex, bikers, than they are to what they are representing.
EDIT: and as nice as those are, they really do not scream TWC at all to me. They have storm bolters, which TWC do not have. They are jetbikes, not cavalry. And they definitely do not scream "4 attacks, strength 5, rending" to me.

This.

You've converted a really cool jetbike squadron. But they're jetbikes. At most, they should count as bikes, or maybe Landspeeder Squadrons. Given that we all know what bikes can do, what jetbikes can do, and what landspeeders can do, and that two of these examples are actually present in the SM codex, it is quite the stretch to believe they are TWC....

That's really the biggest problem with them. When you put them down on the table, people will automatically assume they are jetbikes/bikes, even if you say they represent TWC. (Especially if they are not familiar with TWC rules.) This will cause quite a few people to balk just a little bit when they get charged from 12" away and then have 20+ rending attacks in their face. It starts to feel like the old rhino shell game on the other side of the table. That's why the game is WYSIWYG in the first place, otherwise we might all be playing with tokens.

Now, obviously "counts as" and proxying make this a very grey line indeed, but it really is all up to your opponents.

Not to mention, AoE, you obviously have talent and can paint and convert with the best of them. As such, it's people like you that the rest of us look up to for modelling and painting inspiration. With your abilities, you could probably very easily create some cybernetic lions or even giant lion riders to represent the TWC, but instead you just slapped some engines on bikes and left it alone.

Maybe part of the reaction you're having here is from your "fans" thinking that you're just being lazy with your TWC "counts as".

squilverine wrote:Everyone will have their own ideas of what is acceptable and what isn't. As far as I can see there tends to be four main reasons for "counts as"

1 The actual model doesn't exist, so another is used to represent them
2 A change of rules has made someones beautifuly painted army illegal, they don't want to mess up their painting so they turn to "counts as"
3 The player does not have the money to update his force or buy new models
4 A player wants to try out a new unit using counts as models before comiting to purchase them.

There are probably more but I cant think of them right now.

I don't have too much of a problem as long as either an effort has been made to at least make the model look like what it is trying to represent or that it is a similar equivilant. Also that these are clearly agreed and noted before any game, nothing is worse than playing someone who's marines keep turning from devastators to assualt marines whenever it suits them.

Fpr spme reason this thread has reminded me of the episode of Bottom where Ritchie and Eddie decide to have a game of chess using Ritchies antique board, unfortuanately Eddie has pawned most of the peices to pay for booze so they use frozen prawns as pawns, a bottle of ketchup for a rook and a Spiderman bubble bath for a Queen!

You forgot #5 and a prime driver of the original gaming set-conversions to do something different.

I'm pretty lenient regarding "counts as" in a totally "counts as" army, but "counts as" units in armies that use other standard elements are harder. In general, I'm down with "counts as" if the counts-as model resembles nothing else in the Codex as much as it does its actual unit entry. The Heresy jetbikers would probably not pass this standard, since they look more like standard Bikers to me than TWC. That doesn't mean I wouldn't play against them, but I would probably dock points in a tournament with soft scores.