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Agamemnon2 wrote:For some reason, IG players have a constant desire to build really unacceptable Sentinel proxies. You can't substitute a 4x4 or a tankette for a walker, for crying out loud. Walkers are walkers, and what separates them from other vehicles is them being able to fight in close combat.

Maybe that's because there was a tutorial put out by GW for converting up small tanks to be used as sentinels.

How is a sentinel supposed to fight in close combat any better than a tank anyways? It just has legs. At least tanks are less liable to tip over.

When Missile Launchers are Missile Launchers, I am happy.

When Missile Launchers are Lascannons, I am happy.

When Missile Launchers are Lascannons, Missile Launchers and perhaps the odd Auto Cannon, I am not happy.

As for conversions, depends on the effort put in. In the post above, it mentions 4x4 Buggies etc being built in place of Sentinels. No problem here, as to convert one up takes a lot of time and patience not to mention skill, and I don't mind. What the lose in height, they gain in the other dimensions, keeping TLOS fair. But, when a Bloodletter plonked on a Woodelf horse represents a Bloodcrusher, I'd object, as the size of the model is drastically different from the original, giving you an advantage in TLOS.

Want to convert up Motobikes for Rough Riders, or perhaps some kind of Sevitor Centaur for them, no problem. For a single game, I don't mind say, Space Marine bikes standing whilst you assess the unit in a few games. But after 2 or 3, I'd really expect you to be procuring the unit being proxied, be it converted or off the peg.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:When Missile Launchers are Missile Launchers, I am happy.

When Missile Launchers are Lascannons, I am happy.

When Missile Launchers are Lascannons, Missile Launchers and perhaps the odd Auto Cannon, I am not happy.

Yeah, when proxying, you must absolutely have CONSISTENCY that reduces a multitude of other sins.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:For a single game, I don't mind say, Space Marine bikes standing whilst you assess the unit in a few games. But after 2 or 3, I'd really expect you to be procuring the unit being proxied, be it converted or off the peg.

Listen to this man, for he is wise.

Edit: Screwed up the quoting bbcode again

chaplaingrabthar wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:When Missile Launchers are Missile Launchers, I am happy.

When Missile Launchers are Lascannons, I am happy.

When Missile Launchers are Lascannons, Missile Launchers and perhaps the odd Auto Cannon, I am not happy.

Yeah, when proxying, you must absolutely have CONSISTENCY that reduces a multitude of other sins.

I agree completly. If a freind of mine tells me that every scout is a marine, thats fine. If I get told that only those 3 scut over there are, but the other scouts are not, even though one of the scouts is a chaos marine with a plasma gun because he didn't have another sniper... that's not fine at all.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:For a single game, I don't mind say, Space Marine bikes standing whilst you assess the unit in a few games. But after 2 or 3, I'd really expect you to be procuring the unit being proxied, be it converted or off the peg.

Listen to this man, for he is wise.

That is my exact policy. Remember that your opponents should be your friends as well, because it is a fun based hobby. For example: My choas buddy had a metal daemon prince which was painted black and assembled out of the box for 3 years of gaming. When the new 'dex came, it suddenly grew wings, and the mark of slaanesh. This was ok with me, but after 3 games, I asked him to do WYSIWYG. He said he'd like to, but he couldn't make wings that look good. I said ok, took the model, bought some dragon wings, and did it myself, because it's more fun for me to play against the real thing. It's that kind of act which will strengthen your gaming group, and prevent unnecessary squabble.

In house games, I don't really care. We all know eachother's armies, lists, and codi fairly well. But on the rare occasion that I go to an FLGS to play, I expect a unit to at least be equipped with a weapon of said class if it's going to be proxxied. A bolt pistol does -not- work as a proxy for a Storm Bolter. A Flamethrower looks nothing like a Lascannon, and those Scything Talons on your Tyrant fail to pass as a Barbed Strangler.

Bottom line is: If you're using proxies, at least make an effort to use a model with the same class of weapon.

I think equipment is larger than the models themselves most of the time. If someone says an army is an "ork army", then even if the models are skeletons or genestealer cultists or whatever you can assume that they're orks (except in a few cases; grots, possibly nobs, vehicles, that sort of thing).

On the other hand, if you can't tell what a weapon is supposed to be, you don't know if the model is supposed to be a shoota boy, a loota, or a tankbusta. If you don't know what armor the player is trying to represent you don't know if the model is supposed to be a mega armored nob or an eavy armored nob (or an ard boy, which does relate back to the model used itself).

metallifan wrote:In house games, I don't really care. We all know eachother's armies, lists, and codi fairly well. But on the rare occasion that I go to an FLGS to play, I expect a unit to at least be equipped with a weapon of said class if it's going to be proxxied. A bolt pistol does -not- work as a proxy for a Storm Bolter. A Flamethrower looks nothing like a Lascannon, and those Scything Talons on your Tyrant fail to pass as a Barbed Strangler.

Bottom line is: If you're using proxies, at least make an effort to use a model with the same class of weapon.

Kind of agreeing here. Certainly, at a home game anything goes. But with the Store thing, I think I'd be a bit more forgiving than yourself, if only because I wouldn't necessarily know how things normally go in that Store. Scything Talons as a Barbed Strangler is a good example here. Might be perfectly fine in the Store all the time, might be a proxy-limit, might be an absolute no-no. But I think in a new location (be it a club or someones house) I'd be a bit more forgiving than my usual standards. Not saying your wrong or owt, just discussing.

Of course. But it's just my personal preferance. If you're saying that unit X has a plasma pistol, then he should at least be holding a pistol of some kind. Likewise, a Termie with an assault cannon won't pass for a x2 Lightning Claws proxy.

Basically, keep it sensible. No that Rhino isn't a Land Raider, and I'm not going to count it as one when I'm rolling damage against it. I'm not counting that Wraithlord as an Avatar either. Etc...

WYSIWYG isn't strict with me, but I expect some limit from folks when they use 'counts-as'

I draw the line at 'coke can counts as drop pod'

A good rule methinks

metallifan wrote:Of course. But it's just my personal preferance. If you're saying that unit X has a plasma pistol, then he should at least be holding a pistol of some kind. Likewise, a Termie with an assault cannon won't pass for a x2 Lightning Claws proxy.

Basically, keep it sensible. No that Rhino isn't a Land Raider, and I'm not going to count it as one when I'm rolling damage against it. I'm not counting that Wraithlord as an Avatar either. Etc...

WYSIWYG isn't strict with me, but I expect some limit from folks when they use 'counts-as'

From the sound of it, you are pretty strict by any stretch of the imagination.

A Wraithlord can't count as an Avatar? Really? What other unit, in the entirety of WH40k, could possibly work as well?
The added fact that a Wraithlord is considerably larger, and puts your opponent at a pretty serious disadvantage overall, makes up for any shortcomings the model might otherwise have.

If I were to follow what guidelines you have set, there really is very little option for 'counts as' at all. If someone is straight up proxying a large portion of their army, I find your guidelines downright silly TBTH.

Not trying to poke at you or anything, but limiting proxies, by something as specific as their weapons, limits a players options from many (same size model roughly, definitely same size base) to almost none. If someone has a marine with a plasma pistol, why would they even be testing the unit in the first place? There are very few units that transfer as well as SM, and I would consider it a bit silly to make a Khorne army (for instance), if I already had 3 SM forces already.

My limits are very simple.

- Same size base. No exceptions
- Roughly the same size model, or a clear understanding that the models are considered larger than they actually are. (Grots are considered the same size as Orks for instance.)
- Consistency throughout, no mixing and matching for extra confusion. One unit type can only be used to represent one other unit type. Ork boys cannot be assault marines AND tactical marines.
- If all else fails, simply add sticky notes, I am not going to game like this in a competitive setting regardless. Sticky notes make everything easier, no questions there.

anyone have a problem with my deffwing? mega armor nobz as terminators, using the dark angels codex.

Not really. It's a coherent force, all their weapons are adequately represented, and plus - Orkses knockin' off Marine Boyz? Genius

Mega-armor Nobz as Terminators makes perfect sense to me.

Wrexasaur wrote:Mega-armor Nobz as Terminators makes perfect sense to me.

Didn't go over well when I field Ork Wolves and did the same thing at the LGS.

studderingdave wrote:anyone have a problem with my deffwing? mega armor nobz as terminators, using the dark angels codex.

I would play that in a heartbeat dude, terrific looking force.

To speak to the others about proxy/weapons, I can understand the worry about confusion. Remembering a missile launcher is a melta gun here, while it's a flamer here would get tiresome.

I would play that army - why? Because its simple to work out what is what - all Mega Armored Nobs are terminators, and weapons seem reasonably WYSIWYG - and its coherent, and easily identifiable.

studderingdave wrote:anyone have a problem with my deffwing? mega armor nobz as terminators, using the dark angels codex.

That's sweet. Write it up for an army profile, tout de suite!

studderingdave wrote:anyone have a problem with my deffwing? mega armor nobz as terminators, using the dark angels codex.

No problems. Everything is clear and obvious.

OTOH, if there were an Mega-Ork variant, and your Terminators were actually Bikes, then there would be a lot more of a problem.

I do NOT see any problem with count-as.

Because if they act in the same function, and appear to act in the same function, I see no restriction.


I mean seriously guys, haven't you heard from my man Gav Thorpe?

Rules are just RULES!!!!!!


(Sarcasm. LOL).

I'm trying to take all of this in, but it's confusing. Are you suggesting that it isn't OK to play with a roll of quarters, 3 legos, and a cardboard cutout of Peter Pan to represent your HQ? That's pretty uptight, but I guess everyone has to have their standards.

My preferences:

- pennies = boyz (sluggas)
- nickels = Nobs
- dimes = burnas
- quarter face up = warboss
- paper cutout = big mek
- face down playing card = battle wagon
- face up playing card = trukk
- bobblehead = ruins
- candy bar = difficult terrain
- thumb tacks = dangerous terrain

It's straightforward and easy to understand. Sometimes if I forget to bring one of my rolls of pennies, I just ask for change at the store after buying a drink. Sure, it's an expensive hobby, and could set you back 6 or 7 bucks in an apocalypse battle, but to me, money is no object.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

The difference is that good counts as armies are simple, and don't have strong precedents for how they "should" be played. If using something with roots, don't stray so far afield.

As always YMMV.

I can sincerely appreciate that and respect your position. To be frank, I toyed with making my Heresy army (Not the bikes picture by the way, I've altered the army quite a bit) from the Vanilla dex. Mostly I considered that option in fear that I would ruin someone's fun at Adepticon due to confusion. However, the more I thought about it the less worried I became as my army is pretty easy to understand. Outside of two counts as, everything is WYSIWYG.

Now, why I chose the SW codex is due to a few reasons. First, some of the major conversion/center pieces of my army (Not the bikes pictured) needed a home befitting their fluff. The vanilla SM dex really didn't afford those options. Second, I strongly dislike the play style of the vanilla dex as I prefer to be aggressive with tactical squads and get out of rhinos...which again the SW dex provided. Mostly however, it was the ability of the SW codex to capture the theme of my army at the siege of Terra with the conversions I'll be bringing.

Now, I suppose I'll see how bad that hurts my scoring. I'm a pretty laid back guy when playing (Hell I prefer taking photos and writing a story for the game more than playing it)...so if my soft scores get hit at the Con...well then I guess I'll know . Regardless of my scoring I've enjoyed making the army and am quite proud of the final product...which is almost complete! Again though, I completely respect your position John and hold no animosity for your disagreement. Mileage does vary!

I've been following this thread, and I have a question for the participants.

I play Death Guard. Right now, they are painted as Pre-Heresy and played as a Chaos army (regular marines, no spikes). I use Techmarines as Obliterators for two reasons:

1) They're 10 bucks cheaper
2) They fit in with the theme

I've heard some people tell me that it's too confusing, but most just say they really like the idea and it fits the theme. What are your thoughts on it? Am I wrong to do so? Am I wrong to expect that when I say to my opponent "these dudes here are Obliterators", he understands it?

Secondly, I am expanding the army now to be able to play them as Space Wolves. The main reason is that it gives me a competitive army while minimizing the amount of models I have to buy (17 models turns my current army into a 1750 SW army). I will be using bikes as Thunderwulf Cavalry. They will all be armed properly (all with Storm Shields, one with TH/SS). My Wolf Lord will also be on a bike, with all his equipment modeled properly (WC/SS). They will all be painted in the pre-Heresy Death Guard colours

I had one GW staffer tell me that this was "cheating" and if I wanted to play Space Wolves, they should BE Space Wolves, not just my Death Guard with some new models thrown in. He also complained that "the Death Guard wouldn't act like Space Wolves if they were still around". Barring that he may have just been trying to drum up a new army sale, is there anything wrong with what I plan to do? I get that I may have to explain to people that "no, this isn't a bike, it's Thunderwulf Cavalry" but most of my gaming group understands that I don't like the way Space Wolves look, just like I don't like the Spikey Marine look of Chaos. Plus I really love the Death Guard story.

I think your preheresy Death Guard are fine. There's a theme to it, they look appropriate, your "counts as" Oblits aren't too much of a stretch...etc.

However, I have issues with using them as Space Wolves. I would play you, but I would think that it is a little lame to use them as omni-marines, just as using say...Black Templars as Space Wolves would be lame too. Or Salamanders.

When your opponent looks at your army, he should have a reasonable expectation of what he is facing.

Zoned wrote:I think your preheresy Death Guard are fine. There's a theme to it, they look appropriate, your "counts as" Oblits aren't too much of a stretch...etc.

However, I have issues with using them as Space Wolves. I would play you, but I would think that it is a little lame to use them as omni-marines, just as using say...Black Templars as Space Wolves would be lame too. Or Salamanders.

When your opponent looks at your army, he should have a reasonable expectation of what he is facing.

So if someone wants to play a different Marine army, they have to re-buy all the basics?

Bunker wrote:So if someone wants to play a different Marine army, they have to re-buy all the basics?

In the coming years, I'm going to be tearing apart my SM army to rebuild as a 3-in-1 Marine army that will be able to play as Vanilla, Blood Angels, and Marked Chaos. I'll be scavenging some parts to supplement it with a second 2-in-1 Templars army that will double as MoCU Chaos (Heresy-era tactics). Both armies will have bitz-specific, WYSIWYG models for each flavor I play as to minimize confusion. I'm just waiting for the BA Codex and upgrade release to finalize the BA elements.

Bunker wrote:I've been following this thread, and I have a question for the participants.

I play Death Guard. Right now, they are painted as Pre-Heresy and played as a Chaos army (regular marines, no spikes). I use Techmarines as Obliterators for two reasons:

1) They're 10 bucks cheaper
2) They fit in with the theme

I've heard some people tell me that it's too confusing, but most just say they really like the idea and it fits the theme. What are your thoughts on it? Am I wrong to do so? Am I wrong to expect that when I say to my opponent "these dudes here are Obliterators", he understands it?

Secondly, I am expanding the army now to be able to play them as Space Wolves. The main reason is that it gives me a competitive army while minimizing the amount of models I have to buy (17 models turns my current army into a 1750 SW army). I will be using bikes as Thunderwulf Cavalry. They will all be armed properly (all with Storm Shields, one with TH/SS). My Wolf Lord will also be on a bike, with all his equipment modeled properly (WC/SS). They will all be painted in the pre-Heresy Death Guard colours

I had one GW staffer tell me that this was "cheating" and if I wanted to play Space Wolves, they should BE Space Wolves, not just my Death Guard with some new models thrown in. He also complained that "the Death Guard wouldn't act like Space Wolves if they were still around". Barring that he may have just been trying to drum up a new army sale, is there anything wrong with what I plan to do? I get that I may have to explain to people that "no, this isn't a bike, it's Thunderwulf Cavalry" but most of my gaming group understands that I don't like the way Space Wolves look, just like I don't like the Spikey Marine look of Chaos. Plus I really love the Death Guard story.

Honestly, many of your ideas are too far into the "cut corners rather than create a creative counts-as" zone. Are your tech marines converted at all? If so how much? I don't know if techmarines were around at all pre-heresy for one. That would mean a power fist, and every servo arm ending in an obliterator gun. If you did that converting it should be good. Stock techmarines would just seem a bit lazy.

Sorry, but bikes -> thunderwolf cavalry just wouldn't fly for me. Bikes are a unit in the book, using bikes as thunderwolf cavalry would qualify for "proxy" rather than "counts as". If you really want to do a full army of bikes as thunderwolves, you would have to seriously bulk them out for the toughness: straight up 5, multiple wounds, multiple attacks, rending, strength 5. I would expect to see armor plates, giant chainsaws/rotary blades or something in front for the rending and bike attacks... just something. A bike is +1 toughness. How come yours also provide t5 for instant death, multiple wounds, attacks, strength, and rending?

It's times like this that I remember the golden rule: EVERYTHING in the game requires your opponent's consent. Because they don't have to play you.

I'm happy to play against a counts-as army (even prefer it to the bog-standard armies). I'm happy to play against a proxy army, if things are clear. I've in the past been so hard up for a game that I've played against people with notebook paper signs taped to armless metal marines indentifying what weapons they're carrying. I didn't have to play that game, but I wanted to. So I did.

If you want to play a proxy army, be fun to play against. That's pretty much the only thing that matters. If you are too confusing (or too obnoxious, or too lazy, or too sloppy) that your opponents don't want to play you, they won't consent to your army. Different opponents like different things, so no one-size-fits-all rule will ever cover what makes someone fun to play against. But if we're all old and mature enough to look at the Daemonette plastics, we're old and mature enough to figure out what it takes to make another player's game fun. So make sure the other player is having fun. Then do what you want.*

*This doesn't apply to tournaments of course, but then I'd like to think we're all mature enough to understand that for tournaments the only rule that really matters is the rule set by whomever is organizing it.

ph34r wrote:Sorry, but bikes -> thunderwolf cavalry just wouldn't fly for me. Bikes are a unit in the book, using bikes as thunderwolf cavalry would qualify for "proxy" rather than "counts as". If you really want to do a full army of bikes as thunderwolves, you would have to seriously bulk them out for the toughness: straight up 5, multiple wounds, multiple attacks, rending, strength 5. I would expect to see armor plates, giant chainsaws/rotary blades or something in front for the rending and bike attacks... just something. A bike is +1 toughness. How come yours also provide t5 for instant death, multiple wounds, attacks, strength, and rending?

Is it really so hard to just say, "I don't want to play you"?

There are a lot of reasons someone couldn't do what you 'require', and leaving it at a simple pass on gaming, should easily suffice.

More than a few people have expressed basically the sentiment that you are, and what it comes down to, is YOU wanting to playing the exact models that are being used; irregardless of the fact that a specific model may not even exist in any fashion.

If you feel like custom building someone else's army, try not to do it right before you are going to game with them.

I support people gaming on a budget if at all possible. The difference between a scratch-built Killa Kan (which could easily look 10x more awesome than 'standard' sculpts) and a coke can goes and awful long way though... and being surprised at tournament settings not allowing your precious custom army, is your problem really. No reason for a tournament to affect other peoples gaming experience, with your decisions.

With Friendly gaming though, there is usually little problem when it actually comes to finding a game.

I would expect my friends to put in more effort than "these bikes are thunderwolves". Basically I don't care what your counts-as is, as long as A. it is not confusing/same model as another option "my scout army is all scouts that count as tactical marines", or "my librarians are all chaplains", or "my bikes are all thunderwolves", B. you at least try to model the appropriate powers and options for units "these bikes are thunderwolves" vs "these bikes that i have up-armored and up-weaponed are thunderwolves".

If you are just using your bikes to proxy thunderwolves while you make some real conversions or buy actual wolves, fine. But just saying "I didn't want to get the actual models so I used a different unit instead of them" is boring, and if you are going to just go with the cheapest options for everything you might as well have your sternguard be basic marines with no changes, your veteran guardsmen and storm troopers looking exactly the same as your basic guardsmen, and using basic orks as nobz.