Who would win, a Spartan (Halo) or a SM?

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**Lorgar's_Blessed**

Fluffwise, the only time a Boy kills a Space Marine is in CC. A marine in the fluff takes ten or more to focus on one marine to kill them. Game =/= fluff.

**Kanluwen**

Very good.

Now those examples of "three Brute Shots killing a Spartan" or "one Spartan Laser shot can ONLY kill one Spartan" are all from multiplayer or Legendary difficulty.

Spartan Lasers are far, far, far closer to Lascannons than Multilasers. SLs can cut right through multiple shielded Elites or even bring down shielded Brute Chieftains.

**RxGhost**

I don't know Kan, Señor Goto would disagree with you on the Multilaser's effect.

**Solly**

Vladsimpaler wrote:
ph34r wrote:
Try reading a 40k book and you will get a bit of an idea of tactics.

Anyway, could I get some examples of these so called tactics?
(As apparently Dawn of War isn't canon now. )

Hi.. If I'm getting your question right:

Im not naming specific engagements cause I'd be here for ages
however examples of SM using tactics in 40k official fluff:
Every book in the HH series thus fars......
Every book in the Soul Drinkers, Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, BloodAngels series..
Erm even the Last Chancers have a member of the DeathWatch who uses tactics to take down three battle suits, Kill Team.. (with a little help from some IG but not tanks)

With regards to the hype around the SM:
On the battlefield my Orks tend to roll them over.
So I've not much regard for SM unless someone has sorted out a proper list and uses whirlwinds effectively.
In this thread the hype is about pride, especially the Imperial players..
Nobody beats down the Emperors golden boys (",)

**CrazyThang**

Solly wrote:With regards to the hype around the SM:
On the battlefield my Orks tend to roll them over.
So I've not much regard for SM unless someone has sorted out a proper list and uses whirlwinds effectively.
In this thread the hype is about pride, especially the Imperial players..
Nobody beats down the Emperors golden boys (",)

As has been stated, fluff =/= game in terms of a unit's power.

**Lorgar's_Blessed**

Solly's ignorance of the GW statblock for SMs is amazing. Please, read a book and understand that, FLUFFWISE, SMs are much MUCH more powerful.

Soul Drinkers tactica is just what everyone is claiming isn't: They shove in and slice through everything. Soul Drinkers Omnibus was horrible as it was so against the fluff of the 40kverse and simply destroyed any hopes of a neutral chapter being awesome.

**Solly**

Please, read a book and understand that, FLUFFWISE, SMs are much MUCH more powerful.

Read a book?
Which one? Maybe one that I mentioned in my previous post?
Admitedly I didn't read the BloodQuest series or all of the UM series..
I know they are fluffwise capable of destroying many times their number in battle!!
Hell, that's how it was originally sold to me in the GW store..

I haven't said anything to the contrary???

Soul Drinkers tactica is just what everyone is claiming isn't: They shove in and slice through everything.

Is tearing out the enemies command structure not a tactic?
Or destroying an army piece by piece not a tactic, albeit a brutal one..

With regards to that actual series I quiet liked it.. Especially Tellos..

**ph34r**

Kanluwen wrote:Very good.

Now those examples of "three Brute Shots killing a Spartan" or "one Spartan Laser shot can ONLY kill one Spartan" are all from multiplayer or Legendary difficulty.

Spartan Lasers are far, far, far closer to Lascannons than Multilasers. SLs can cut right through multiple shielded Elites or even bring down shielded Brute Chieftains.

Halo shields are weak in comparison to 40k technology and brutes are basically unarmored. It doesn't matter how many monkeys with light refractor fields a SL can kill, they are not lascannons and never will be. Legendary difficulty is supposed to be the most realistic difficulty, so it only makes sense to judge based on that.

**Kingsley**

Technically, Heroic is supposed to be "true Halo," but that doesn't make it look that much better for the Spartans.

**Lorgar's_Blessed**

Solly wrote:Please, read a book and understand that, FLUFFWISE, SMs are much MUCH more powerful.

Read a book?
Which one? Maybe one that I mentioned in my previous post?
Admitedly I didn't read the BloodQuest series or all of the UM series..
I know they are fluffwise capable of destroying many times their number in battle!!
Hell, that's how it was originally sold to me in the GW store..

I haven't said anything to the contrary???

Soul Drinkers tactica is just what everyone is claiming isn't: They shove in and slice through everything.

Is tearing out the enemies command structure not a tactic?
Or destroying an army piece by piece not a tactic, albeit a brutal one..

With regards to that actual series I quiet liked it.. Especially Tellos..

You said your orks would beat/do beat SM all the time. yet, you add this to your argument as if it were fluff, which is only found in a codex/novel (though some say it isn't fluff since it is irregular).

Tellos made the book utterly horrible.

Spoiler:

**Solly**

@Lorgar's_Blessed

You said your orks would beat/do beat SM all the time.
yet, you add this to your argument as if it were fluff, which is only found in a codex/novel.

If that's the way I came across, then it's not the case..
My ususal opponents play necrons, eldar and my orks arch nemises - other orkz.
What I meant to express was that when I play against SM it's w/players who are not experienced with them,
except in tournies where the player knows what they are doing and my boyz earn their teef..

Tellos made the book utterly horrible.

Spoiler:

Yes, I agree with this..

Spoiler:

**Emperors Faithful**

Since everyone is getting so angsty about how fluff=/=gaming stats, how about you post what the gaming stats SHOULD look like. Personally, I find them to be fairly reasonable. A str 4, a Marine IS capable of tearing into a rhino or Chimera (heck even a Leman Russ, with it's rear armour).

So if you don't like the stats, change them.

**LunaHound**

Adeptus Astartes can destroy reality simply by thinking it.

**CrazyThang**

I don't even play space marines and I think a SM would defeat a spartan so...

Then again I love 40k as a whole and... dislike all halo (except for the first game)(and I read the books so at least I know about it :p) so I may be a tad biased but honestly just thinking about it in a purely pros/cons way it seems fairly obvious. I'm not going to reitterate what everyone has already said pros/cons wise though, sorry.

**Solly**

Space marine
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:3+

Spartan
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:4+ (5+ invulnerable)

**Emperors Faithful**

That's been done, Solly. In fact, it's exactly what I made it.

**Solly**

I know mate, I can't get the quote to work from this pc.
I don't have any of the options and when I use the short code for bold, italic etc they won't work.

For all who haven't read previous posts the above stats are refined by Emperors Faithful.
As soon as I get home I will put the quote in..

I put the thumbs up to it just for you (",)

**Emperors Faithful**

Oh thanks.

Actually, I was asking you to provide your own take on what an SM stat line should look like according to fluff. I don't see why everyone seems to be shouting "ZOMG NO WAYS! SPEHS MAHRINS ARE WAY MORE SUPER POWERFULL!!1!"

**Lorgar's_Blessed**

I SWEAR I already posted marine stats for fluff-fit... OH WAIT I DID!

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:
zane2131 wrote:okay i've thought about it in 40k terms

Space marine
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:3+
-Bolt gun- S:4, AP:5, rapid fire
I dont have a codex so im not sure about special rules

This is what I've come up with for a spartan
-WS:4, BS:5, S:5, T:4, W:1, I:6, A:2, LD:8, SV:2+

I'm going to ignore EVERYTHING you just said and go ahead and show you what a real Marine in the 40k universe is like.

Taken from the Movie Marines Ruleset:

-WS:5, BS:5, S:6, T:6, W:2, I:5, A:3, LD:9, SV:3+
-Bolt gun- S:6, AP:4, Assault 4 Rending

Oh but wait, that's the average marine. If you're going to be facing him off against Master Chief, I say we use a Sergeant's profile.

-WS:9, BS:5, S:6, T:6, W:4, I:6, A:5, LD:10, SV:3+
-Bolt pistol- S:6, AP:4, Assault 4 Rending
-Chainsword

Seems the odds are now stacked differently.

As for the Spartan having I 6, that's absurd. Spac Marines are designed to be quicker than anything they face even in bulky power armor. Their inner-ear implant let's them be more dextrous than any human, modified or otherwise. And no, a Spartan is not as swift as an eldar by any means.

It would not have a 2+ save either. It would be either a 3-4+ since it's armor is WEAK though its shields are decent. So when its shields go down, the armor is like Carapace armor, which is a 5+ save.

Lastly, the idea a Spartan wins in close combat is hysterical. We're talking average spartan. This means no ENergy Sword, no Gravity Hammer. Just gun butts and fists. Good luck piercing any armor.

Can we put this to rest now? A Spartan has very less genetic modification, less advanced weapons, and even less training in terms of HE HAS TO SLEEP decent amounts, while a Space Marine is sleeping four hours then training for 18 of the next 20 hours.

**CrazyThang**

In all honesty we can't really put stats to a Spartan can we? We can guess all we want but we will, in the end, just argue that the stats are wrong.

Found a nifty piece of info on the interwebz btw. Apparently Spartans can lift 3x their own body weight (2x that of a human's avg. body weight). I read it on halopedia so take of it what you will.

IIRC 180lbs is close to average for human males. If a Spartan weighs double that's 360 lbs meaning they can lift 1080lbs.

**Solly**

@Emperors Faithful
I would go with your assessment.
I accept that Spartans are uber trained humans who perform a similar role to the SM in their own universe.
But they are not quite at the same genetic peak.

The infered invulnerable save is perfect to represent their (spartan) shield.
And the SV4 is good to represent the uber quality Mjolnir armour.

The same benefits as a SM in all other regards is good to represent the same standard of training from an early age.
But the difference in the armour save reflects, ideologically to me, the SM fluffwise ability to kick ass on a large scale
and their production from pre-teen to two metre tall monster, with already imbeded armour in their flesh.

**Lorgar's_Blessed**

Well, considering SMs can lift vehicles, I'd say that they out-strength a spartan.

**CrazyThang**

If spartans have an invuln. it should be something like the first attack every turn doesn't affect the spartan but due to the shield giving out they must use their normal armor save for the rest of the turn.

**Lorgar's_Blessed**

Agreed Crazy. Agreed 100%.

**Solly**

First attack is negated regardless of the unit is definitely feasible,
be nice to try it out w/stand-ins.

This would specially reflect the regenerative nature of the shield.

**Orkeosaurus**

Throwing my hat in the ring, for the stats:

Spartan: WS3 BS4 S4 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv4+/5++
Equipped with: Carapace Armor, Refractor Field, Autogun, Frag Grenades

The Space Marine is the superior soldier, but Spartans are halfway between them and Stormtroopers, so are an unusually dangerous opponent for space marines to be fighting. Either could win, but the Space Marine is favored. Master Chief, if we use standard 40k stats for special characters, would be something like this:

Master Chief: WS4 BS5 S4 T3 W3 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv4+/5++
Equipped with: Carapace Armor, Refractor Field, Power Sword, Dual SMGs, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades
Special Rules: May reroll one dice to hit, to wound, or to save every game turn (Cortana)
Dual SMGs: Range 12" S3 AP- Assault 2, Twin Linked

Master Chief would beat a Tactical Marine in a fight, because he has a name. A Captain or Chapter Master would probably take him down, though.

**Snikkyd**

Does it really matter how powerful a marine is in the fluff?

There are several points in the fluff where marines die and lose battles. you'd just never know that from reading there codex, because it never mentions it. It just talks about how they OMGWTFPWN all other races.

They might be more powerful, but 1. So is almost everyone else, and 2. Its not always enough.

I'm not saying they suck, far from it, I play SW myself, but I don't think they're quite as uber as people say, they're more of in between. Besides, a tac marine has better stats than almost every basic troop of the other armies, what that isn't good enough for you? I think they're good enough myself.

Personally, I don't see the point of these comparison threads. the only thing that could kill a marine is something from 40k, clearly GW has made sure of it.

Thats probably why they're described as being so awesome, GW wants to make sure they're still better than all these other genetically enhanced cliches.

**Lorgar's_Blessed**

The Spartan came after the Astartes so basically, the Spartan is still but a carbon-copy clone with only half the awesomeness.

**Snikkyd**

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:The Spartan came after the Astartes so basically, the Spartan is still but a carbon-copy clone with only half the awesomeness.

Thats my point, the SM are made out to be so good because GW can't allow them to be weaker than clones. When the game first came out, they were accurately portrayed.

I think Spartans are just as good, but with weaker gear. After all, the technology isn't as advanced in Halo.

**Lorgar's_Blessed**

I WOULD agree, if not for the sheer difference in the two out of armor. An Astartes is still able to lift a truck, has repetitive organs, and has implants to just let him be outright awesome.

A Spartan, however, has lost his targetting so he is less accurate, has no physical durability beyond a powerful human, and is simply smaller and weaker.

Not to say a Spartan is weak by any means and is in fact quite awesome. But compared to the Astartes, they pale.