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From fluff standards, an Astartes would be VERY evenly matched with a Spartan--discounting armor.

The only difference, frankly, is the make-up of their bodies.

A Spartan has a dense musculature and skeletal structure(by the by--your comment about "a Spartan losing an arm and continuing to fight well, no"--an Astartes can't either. Both can, however, block out the pain and keep fighting) while also possessing ridiculous dexterity and agility--but more importantly for the *universe they're created for*, they still outwardly look human, if a little pale.

An Astartes, however, is an entirely different beast.
And I do actually mean "beast", given that Astartes are pretty much their own genetics pathway.
You've got a larger body type, with the dense musculature and skeletal system. Add in the redundant organs and you get a suitable supersoldier for, again, *the universe they're in*.

Either way, your points are about as intelligently thought out and your comparisons as situational as the scrubs who did "Ultimate Warrior" and compared things like ninjas fighting Spartan hoplites, etc.

You have to take into acount differing fighting styles, weapons, and armor.

First, regardless of how powerful SM are they are designed and trained to fight in squads.

Spartans are also trained to fight in squads, despite the fact that nearly all of them died and that bit is gone now...

A spartan may very well be able to take on a SM 1 on 1. Both soldiers have shown above human strength and dexterity.

I would say in a 1 on 1 fight a fully equiped Spartan Vs a Fully Equiped SM it would be an even fight even when taking into account the Bolter which would likely kill a spartan in one to two hits.

Spartans are genetically enhanced, and as stated before can have AIs helping them. I think the bolter would be taken out of the variable rather quickley simply by waiting for the SM to expend his ammunition, from there the Sparta knows how much ammo is in a magazine. Now he can wait for the SM to fire again and as soon as the Magazine is expended he can close the gap and enter melee.

As to who would win in Melee.... I would have to say the SM most likely would win. Not because of the Chainsword, but because while Spartans are trained to ignore pain and continue fighting SM have painkillers integrated into their suits, as well as adrenaline shots and most likely many more things to tip a battle in their favor.

^^^^Now of course all of this can probably be skipped because a spartan would now know that a Bolter could kill him in one or two shots until it's to late. :(

BTW, TC why did you even make this topic. It's a 40k board, the answer is going to be SM.
^^Reminds me of people who post on Gamespot/Gamefaqs asking if they should get game a or game b on the game a board.

Well my vote is for the Space marine for the simple idea that well they have had 40,000 years of advancements in Technology. The amount of time that the spartan has had is i believe 2100 years, so right there the Astartes would have a significant advantage, but those are my own two cents.

SMs don't have 40,000 years of advance in technology.

They have a few thousand years, followed by regression, followed by a bit of advancement, followed by stasis and decline into superstition.

The last big leap forwards in SM war technology was the ides of gluing a heavy bolter on top of a Rhino and calling it a Razorback. That was 3,000 years ago and took 7,000 years to come up with the idea. Or something.

do we have to continue flogging the question which has been asked many a times before (with the same answer of the Space marine winning and the halo lovers whinning)

^^
Like I said it seems pointless to even ask this question. This is a 40k Forum after all. If you were to go to a Halo forum and ask the question most likely they would pick a Spartan.

I don't know what TC was thinking...

Remember the first chapter of Horus Rising, with Luna Wolves fighting against the false emperor's elite Invisible troopers? Pretty sure those were Spartans with Active Camo and Grav Hammers.

This is one of the stupidest threads I have ever read. 10 mins of my life I won't get back

hahahahaha

Someone invent some Mjolnir and Standard Astartes armour, generate a couple of super soldiers and get them to bash each other..
Alternatively, if the above is not an option, to answer the OP question..

A Space Marine would win because this is DakkaDakka.com

If it were Halo.com then the Spartan would win (",)

Ed_Bodger wrote:This is one of the stupidest threads I have ever read. 10 mins of my life I won't get back

You didn't have to read it.

And apparently it isn't so bad if it has two pages of replies.

What!? the spartan would defenatly win! (especially if it was the master chief) have you read the books? a Spartan's armor is made from the same metal on a covenant ship! your talking armor that takes 3 nukes just to penetrate! (even though it wouldn't bee that tough because there is a lot less of it in a suit of armor they do say that someone took out a covenant ship with 3 lucky shots). further more it does have the shields so it could take even more punishment beyond that. Finally aren't the space marines just genetically enhanced clones? I mean yea, they are going to be pretty strong and fast, but the master chief can match it because guess what? hes genetically enhanced too! except he also has enhanced reflexes! and in the book it described a Spartan's adrenaline rush and basically said that the world around him slowed down a lot, so therefore, yea the space marines may be able to match him with strength (maybe), and maybe even weaponry, but the master chief defenatly has better armor, which is a lot less bulky and has shields, and is faster, especially with an adrenaline rush! not to mention that they were trained to do nothing but kill, think, and strategize since they were four! And if the spartan has an AI the SM is screwed!

Spartan hands down!

zane2131 wrote:What!? the spartan would defenatly win! (especially if it was the master chief) have you read the books? a Spartan's armor is made from the same metal on a covenant ship! your talking armor that takes 3 nukes just to penetrate! (even though it wouldn't bee that tough because there is a lot less of it in a suit of armor they do say that someone took out a covenant ship with 3 lucky shots). further more it does have the shields so it could take even more punishment beyond that. Finally aren't the space marines just genetically enhanced clones? I mean yea, they are going to be pretty strong and fast, but the master chief can match it because guess what? hes genetically enhanced too! except he also has enhanced reflexes! and in the book it described a Spartan's adrenaline rush and basically said that the world around him slowed down a lot, so therefore, yea the space marines may be able to match him with strength (maybe), and maybe even weaponry, but the master chief defenatly has better armor, which is a lot less bulky and has shields, and is faster, especially with an adrenaline rush! not to mention that they were trained to do nothing but kill, think, and strategize since they were four! And if the spartan has an AI the SM is screwed!

Spartan hands down!

Well, in Halo terms, a bolter is very similar to a brute shot (minus the lob)

The cheif can easily survive a few hits from a brute shot, but I'd say that a SM
is much more accurate than a Brute.
With this deadly efficiency, I'd say the SM would win.

Just my Humble oppion.

It would be really close though.

okay i've thought about it in 40k terms

Space marine
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:3+
-Bolt gun- S:4, AP:5, rapid fire
I dont have a codex so im not sure about special rules

This is what I've come up with for a spartan
-WS:4, BS:5, S:5, T:4, W:1, I:6, A:2, LD:8, SV:2+

-Special rules: he wears an armor that gives him a shield, though not overly strong i think it deserves a 4+ inv save. can equipt an AI to increase I +2

I cant remember what wepon you gave him so i got both possable

-Assualt rifle S:2 AP:- assault 2
-Battle rifle S:2 AP:- assault 1
-SMG S:1 AP:- assault 3

heres my explanation

-WS:4 While they are trained to be experts at close combat as well as ranged, i don't see him being less or more capable skill wise than an SM
-BS:5 i gave him BS:5 because each spartan has advanced eyesight and are taught to aim dead on, the spartan wouldn't take a shot that wouldn't hit.
-S:5 This took a lot of debate, i compared what a regular SM could do and what a spartan can do, and lets face it, a spartan can punch through a tank. also a warboss has a toughness of 5 and i think that the warboss might be able to take a hit, but it would knock him down defenatly.
-T:4 i believe that both are equal when it comes to this. they can both shrug off alot, but they are still human, both on equal terms of genetics.
-W:1 again they are both human and if a space marine can take only one shot to kill, so should a spartan.
-I:6 i gave him such a high initiative because well, between his adrenaline and enhacements, not to mention even the armor helping increas it, i believe his reflexes and reaction time are almost unmatchable, even in the year 40,000.
-A:2 I gave him 2 atks because i figure his reaction time is good enough not only to hit his enemy with the gun, but also see his opponents open spots and hit it with a kick or something before they could react.
-LD:8 i dont think a spartan is completely fearless and could probebly muster the curage to stand up to the same stuff as a SM.
-SV:2+ lets face it, his armor is made out of the same material of space ship that can take 3 nukes...yea, beacuse its not as thick it stand up to that much, but I think it can stand up to everything a terminator's armor could.

-As for the special rules well, i explained the shield, but as for the AI, cortana doubled the chiefs reaction time. now seeing that cortana was an advanced AI i think i should instead of double it just give it a 2+.

Wepons

-the wepons are under advanced in all ways, but i thinks they are still considered assault. really i just looked at IG lasguns and made them slightly weaker since they just fire bullets.

Conclusion

-I have no idea. i believe the master chief could win, defenatly if he had cortana, but for a regular spartan i would say only in CC

Just as an FYI:
A brute 'shot' isn't anything like a Bolter.

A bolter is pretty much its own beast, while a Brute Shot is just a standard grenade launcher.

Closest real comparison I can think of in regards to Halo with the whole Bolter/XXX Halo Weapon is a Gauss Cannon.

Ah but has a single space marine ever blew up two giant weapons of galactic destruction and survived to tell the tale? Also a lot of spartans had something that sm don't have. And that is: luck. Oh btw, has a space marine ever lead a small strike team , sniped all the covenant patrols in the area,to board a covenant ship, kill the leading ship master, rescue the captain from the covie bastards, get vital intelligence after which he would then, go trudge through a swamp, and basically destroy a bunch of halo equivalent plaque bearers?
Cause, I'm pretty sure a sm has never did something like that. I'm voting for spartans.

Munch Munch! wrote:Ah but has a single space marine ever blew up two giant weapons of galactic destruction and survived to tell the tale? Also a lot of spartans had something that sm don't have. And that is: luck. Oh btw, has a space marine ever lead a small strike team , sniped all the covenant patrols in the area,to board a covenant ship, kill the leading ship master, rescue the captain from the covie bastards, get vital intelligence after which he would then, go trudge through a swamp, and basically destroy a bunch of halo equivalent plaque bearers?
Cause, I'm pretty sure a sm has never did something like that. I'm voting for spartans.

No, because that's not the job that SM do. SM fight invincible undead robots mind rending horrors of unfathomable power. Master chief dies to 4 seconds of sustained submachine gun fire. There is literally no good argument for spartans winning and the sooner you realize this the better. A spartan dies in 3 brute shot hits, a 3 round burst of bolt fire is like 3 brute shots that detonate inside your armor.

SM fight invincible undead robots mind rending horrors of unfathomable power. Master chief dies to 4 seconds of sustained submachine gun fire. There is literally no good argument for spartans winning and the sooner you realize this the better. A spartan dies in 3 brute shot hits, a 3 round burst of bolt fire is like 3 brute shots that detonate inside your armor.

For the Spartan sympathisers(and I will be suffering in self loathing for weeks for taking part) read Fall of Reach. It explains much of the spartans upgrades and improvements. I'm sorry, they are NOTHING compared to an Astrates. The differance is huge between a Space Marine and a Spartan. Space Marines are super agile even in bulky armour, they go toe to toe with Eldar and win in CC. Spartan armour and shielding is knocked off by half a clip of assault rifles, or a couple bursts from a battle rifle. What is a bolter going to do to it?

And no, Space Marines have not lead an assault on a Covenant ship etc. etc. They do things like take whole planets with about 100 soldiers, or destroy a planet destroying super weapon ship guarded by hundreds of thousands of sleepless zombie robots with less then 800 men. Holding off billions of tyranid organisms with but a handful of soldiers and holding off demons from the deepest, darkest places of the Universe.

Has Master Chief ever done that? Umm...no.

I think people are far over estimating the capabilities of Spartans.

@shadow captain:It takes one whole clip of assualt rifle fire to take down the shield of a spartan. Also in my last post, i said that the master chief did the equivalent of destroying a galactic super weapon. and he did it twice.
And he survived

This is pretty silly, at least when comic geeks go of on pointless arguments they have 40 to 60 years of detailed fluff to go off of, versus relatively vague and contradictory fluff for SM (Take the SM in Courage and Honor versus the SM in Fire Warrior), or the Johny-come-lately Spartans.

The thing is, the Spartans tend to fight smarter than SM's. Whereas the SM would see the Spartan and charge headlong at him heedless of cover or concealment all while screaming "FOR THE FETHING EMPRAH!!!!!" at the top of his lungs, the Spartan would observe the SM covertely, and realizing that his armor is too thick for a head-on fight, the Spartan would simply ninja-kill the SM. Sneak up behind, lop his head off with an energy sword, crush him with a G-hammer, etc. If any of you have read the Halo fluff, you would see that Spartans can move with nigh-supernatural speed and stealth. Also, they know when it pays to fight smarter instead of harder.

I always laugh when I see a thread like this, the favor is obviously with SMs here because this is a 40k forum. If you posed the same question on a halo forum, the favor would obviously be with spartans. (also if there was a "they're equal" button i would have voted in that)

Ok I saw a lot on the 'smart' AI. If we're going to give a spartan an edge that he would not normally have (I.E. His body, armor & weapons, all standard issue) Then we need to give the marine something he wouldn't normally have so let's give him a melta gun, game over, marine wins.

Now failing that: Standard spartan Vs. Standard Tac marine I have to side with the marine. Heres why:

Combat experience: Marine (Hundreds of years old 100+ years in combat) - Spartan (perhaps 20-30 years actual combat)
Enhancements: Marine (Read up on all the implants they get) - Spartan (Enhanced human, no additional organs that I know of)
Armor: Marine (foot thick rigid plates that can hold up to a direct strike by a frag missile or Tau missile pod) Spartan (Frag missiles kill them easily)
Weapons: Marine (Bolter, explained hundreds of times, Chainsword, Bolt Pistol) Spartan: (Assault / Battle rifle with the standard ammo) ***If we give spartans special ammo then the marine is going to get sternguard ammo***

The Marine clearly wins in all categories so bickering & favoritism aside I have to side with the marine.

Corvus wrote:The thing is, the Spartans tend to fight smarter than SM's. Whereas the SM would see the Spartan and charge headlong at him heedless of cover or concealment all while screaming "FOR THE FETHING EMPRAH!!!!!" at the top of his lungs, the Spartan would observe the SM covertely, and realizing that his armor is too thick for a head-on fight, the Spartan would simply ninja-kill the SM. Sneak up behind, lop his head off with an energy sword, crush him with a G-hammer, etc. If any of you have read the Halo fluff, you would see that Spartans can move with nigh-supernatural speed and stealth. Also, they know when it pays to fight smarter instead of harder.

Try reading a Black Library book by someone other than Goto(like the Iron Snakes book or Storm of Iron), and you'll realize that Marines AREN'T Mindless combat drones. They fight just as smart as the Spartans do.

A Spartan dies instantly to one headshot from a pistol if his shield is down. His armor is basically worthless against 40k-scale weapons, shields aside. Realistically, the Spartan can probably kill the Marine if he shoots him in the eye or maybe throat (assuming the Marine isn't wearing Mk. 8 armor, where the throat is protected). The Marine can kill the Spartan if he shoots him anywhere. I think that the Marine would almost always beat the Spartan, but it's not totally implausible that the Spartan could get lucky in a straight fight or take out the Marine in an ambush scenario.

What we need is a version of deadliest warrior for fictional characters!

zane2131 wrote:okay i've thought about it in 40k terms

Space marine
-WS:4, BS:4, S:4, T:4, W:1, I:4, A:1, LD:8, SV:3+
-Bolt gun- S:4, AP:5, rapid fire
I dont have a codex so im not sure about special rules

This is what I've come up with for a spartan
-WS:4, BS:5, S:5, T:4, W:1, I:6, A:2, LD:8, SV:2+

I'm going to ignore EVERYTHING you just said and go ahead and show you what a real Marine in the 40k universe is like.

Taken from the Movie Marines Ruleset:

-WS:5, BS:5, S:6, T:6, W:2, I:5, A:3, LD:9, SV:3+
-Bolt gun- S:6, AP:4, Assault 4 Rending

Oh but wait, that's the average marine. If you're going to be facing him off against Master Chief, I say we use a Sergeant's profile.

-WS:9, BS:5, S:6, T:6, W:4, I:6, A:5, LD:10, SV:3+
-Bolt pistol- S:6, AP:4, Assault 4 Rending
-Chainsword

Seems the odds are now stacked differently.

As for the Spartan having I 6, that's absurd. Spac Marines are designed to be quicker than anything they face even in bulky power armor. Their inner-ear implant let's them be more dextrous than any human, modified or otherwise. And no, a Spartan is not as swift as an eldar by any means.

It would not have a 2+ save either. It would be either a 3-4+ since it's armor is WEAK though its shields are decent. So when its shields go down, the armor is like Carapace armor, which is a 5+ save.

Lastly, the idea a Spartan wins in close combat is hysterical. We're talking average spartan. This means no ENergy Sword, no Gravity Hammer. Just gun butts and fists. Good luck piercing any armor.

Can we put this to rest now? A Spartan has very less genetic modification, less advanced weapons, and even less training in terms of HE HAS TO SLEEP decent amounts, while a Space Marine is sleeping four hours then training for 18 of the next 20 hours.

The point is, all of that has nothing to do with table tennis or disco dancing so the SM would have absolutely no chance.

It is true the space marine ain't doing squat thrusts and t-bagging his kills, so I could see the Spartan winning... Durf.

Lorgar's_Blessed, I have to fully agree with you. If people want to give a spartan extra special weapons then the marine should get special weapons to. Also M.C. is a special spartan, clearly the best of his kind so He should go up against at least a space marine sarge. People need to realize that this is basically an in equality of Spartan Vs. Marine so anything that is done to one side must be done to the other.