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Emperors Faithful wrote:

ph34r wrote:

zane2131 wrote:yea but a space marine has one wound and yousaid yourself that it would take 3 bruit shots to kill the spartan so therefor the spartan has 3 wounds. so really your not helping your argument.

Are you kidding? I'm sorry, but you are terrible at arguing, and terrible at logic. Why would you compare "who would win" in game statistics when both characters are not in the same game system? A space marine is superior to a spartan in every single way, there is literally no way other than extreme luck that a SM would lose 1v1 to a spartan. A single SM could probably take on 10 spartans. A SM's basic weapon is superior to a brute shot, which kills a spartan in 3 hits. SMG or AR bullets could not harm Power Armor at all unless it struck an extremely lucky spot. The odds are so stacked against the spartan that I cannot take your "argument", if one could even call it that, seriously.

I'm gonna have to call you out on that one there, ph34r. There is no way in hell that an SM would take on 10 Spartans all at once. Not gonna happen. Sure, an SM could defeat one or even two at the same time easily enough. His prowess in close combat alone more than makes up for being outnumbered. I'm guessing an SM could go hand-to-hand with a 3-4 brutes and still come out on top. Without a chainsword. Can any Spartan really claim the same?

Speaking of which, how many hunters do you think a sm could take on?

Solly wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The SMs are good on paper but their real battlefield performance does not live up to the hype.

What hype??

The fluff hype or the hype that players have built up during this thread??

Both, they are intertwined.


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Shas'O Dorian wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The SMs are good on paper but their real battlefield performance does not live up to the hype.

In Descent of angles it talks a lot of space marine prowess. A Marine (Standard tac marine at the time), who for spoiler purposes shall not be named, holds down a position on his own, more or less (His comrades are too wounded to help much), while wounded himself against a whole horde of orcs, whom I would compare to brutes. (In game brutes tended to be bad shots & prefer to charge into melee whenever they could) how does that not live up to the hype? Read about the battle for maccrage, especially the 1st company. How about the deathwing story? I fail to see how SM's don't live up to their hype. I mean in game play they don't but that's because it would significantly unbalance the game.

The only place you can judge a unit's battlefield performance is on the battlefield.

Everything else, like the book you talk about, has to be considered as fiction.

The battlefield of 40K is the table top game. In the rules, SMs aren't all that good.

Munch Munch! wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

ph34r wrote:

zane2131 wrote:yea but a space marine has one wound and yousaid yourself that it would take 3 bruit shots to kill the spartan so therefor the spartan has 3 wounds. so really your not helping your argument.

Are you kidding? I'm sorry, but you are terrible at arguing, and terrible at logic. Why would you compare "who would win" in game statistics when both characters are not in the same game system? A space marine is superior to a spartan in every single way, there is literally no way other than extreme luck that a SM would lose 1v1 to a spartan. A single SM could probably take on 10 spartans. A SM's basic weapon is superior to a brute shot, which kills a spartan in 3 hits. SMG or AR bullets could not harm Power Armor at all unless it struck an extremely lucky spot. The odds are so stacked against the spartan that I cannot take your "argument", if one could even call it that, seriously.

I'm gonna have to call you out on that one there, ph34r. There is no way in hell that an SM would take on 10 Spartans all at once. Not gonna happen. Sure, an SM could defeat one or even two at the same time easily enough. His prowess in close combat alone more than makes up for being outnumbered. I'm guessing an SM could go hand-to-hand with a 3-4 brutes and still come out on top. Without a chainsword. Can any Spartan really claim the same?

Speaking of which, how many hunters do you think a sm could take on?

That depends. How many hunters could 4 brutes take on?

The thing of it is though for the Spartan supporters saying that they want the MC is that he is the luckiest. Not the strongest, fastest, or best shot.

I'm sure Linda could snipe a garishly ornated SM from ridiculus range before he knew she was there.

As for the disparity between special Weapon or not, sure give the Marine a melta he will never reach the range. Give him a Las cannon. He will never find her.

In CC though the Marine has it absolutely no contest.

Platuan4th wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:One of the only reasons why a fully equipped Spartan would beat a fully equipped Imperial Marine is because the Spartans actually use tactics.

They are used to going mano-a-mano (not literally) whereas Imperial Marines are trained to fight in squads.

This alone gives the Spartan an advantage.

The Spartans don't just run around with no cover or anything like that.

1. Marines use Tactics, too. I don't know where you people keep getting that idea from, but stop it.

2. Spartans were originally trained for SQUADS of Spartans. John-117 had to make do when he was left without a squad. Spartans aren't used to fighting alone any more or less than Imperial Marines.

For #1: Really? Have you seen the beginning of DoW 1? The marines just randomly charge the top of a hill, not even using cover and just running around.

Honestly I have never seen any examples of Imperial Space Marines ever using tactics with the exception of the Reasonable Marines.

Well I've seen very few examples of Imperial Marines using tactics. Just not enough of it to make me feel that they would come out on top.

A SM will easily win.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

ph34r wrote:

zane2131 wrote:yea but a space marine has one wound and yousaid yourself that it would take 3 bruit shots to kill the spartan so therefor the spartan has 3 wounds. so really your not helping your argument.

Are you kidding? I'm sorry, but you are terrible at arguing, and terrible at logic. Why would you compare "who would win" in game statistics when both characters are not in the same game system? A space marine is superior to a spartan in every single way, there is literally no way other than extreme luck that a SM would lose 1v1 to a spartan. A single SM could probably take on 10 spartans. A SM's basic weapon is superior to a brute shot, which kills a spartan in 3 hits. SMG or AR bullets could not harm Power Armor at all unless it struck an extremely lucky spot. The odds are so stacked against the spartan that I cannot take your "argument", if one could even call it that, seriously.

I'm gonna have to call you out on that one there, ph34r. There is no way in hell that an SM would take on 10 Spartans all at once. Not gonna happen. Sure, an SM could defeat one or even two at the same time easily enough. His prowess in close combat alone more than makes up for being outnumbered. I'm guessing an SM could go hand-to-hand with a 3-4 brutes and still come out on top. Without a chainsword. Can any Spartan really claim the same?

However, I still feel that you're simply disregarding what he's saying because you don't want to hear it. Against 3 spartans, I think a Space Marine would be lucky to win that one.

Anyway, would Spartan Laser = Lascannon or Plasma Gun?

Spartan laser = low rate of fire multilaser.
If 3 brute shots can kill a spartan, a Space Marine can unload a full auto clip of armor penetrating brute shots and massacre spartans by the dozen. Please back your "no way, not gonna happen" up with examples, otherwise its pretty worthless.


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Vladsimpaler wrote:For #1: Really? Have you seen the beginning of DoW 1? The marines just randomly charge the top of a hill, not even using cover and just running around.

Honestly I have never seen any examples of Imperial Space Marines ever using tactics with the exception of the Reasonable Marines.

Well I've seen very few examples of Imperial Marines using tactics. Just not enough of it to make me feel that they would come out on top.

The "but in dawn of war!!!11" argument is old. Nothing in DoW 1 is a good representation of canon. "Sir, our shipment of 100 baneblades just went out to serve".

Try reading a 40k book and you will get a bit of an idea of tactics.

How are you comparing a SL to a multilaser? It goes strait through tanks and damn near everything else.

It is more equiv to a las cannon.

Astartes have internal enhancements that also aide them in combat. Sooooo if a Spartan did actually wound a SM, chances of the SM dying would be slim...

Please stop talking about DoW 1 it was a decent game but NONE of it should be taken as official lore on warhammer 40k.

Read the books or even the codex stories, much better and official (Save for those terrible authors who I shall not name)

Noobtodagame wrote:How are you comparing a SL to a multilaser? It goes strait through tanks and damn near everything else.

It ismore equiv to a las cannon.

A SL can kill a spartan in one shot on max charge. So can 3 brute shots. By transitive property 1 max charge SL = 3 bolter shots, which is closer to a ML shot than a LC shot. Remember, tanks, armor, everything in 40k is harder and stronger than the materials available in Halo's time.

Thank goodness Dorian at least has the common sense not to take DOW as fluff.

Seriously, a game =/= fluff. Enough. Plus, that was probably the best tactic. Taking pot shots lets the charging unit take them, so I would also prefer charging into the fray so I don't get slammed.

Secondly, the idea they DON'T use tactics is idiotic at best. "Wait, you mean that in the fluff Space Marines DO use cover and they DO shoot when they aren't about to be swatted and they DO make solo missions when nessecary..." Durp.

ph34r wrote:
Try reading a 40k book and you will get a bit of an idea of tactics.

No thanks, I'd rather go commit self murder.

Anyway, could I get some examples of these so called tactics?

(As apparently Dawn of War isn't canon now. )

Dawn of war never was. GW just licensed out warhammer to relic. they didn't play any part in the story line.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

ph34r wrote:
Try reading a 40k book and you will get a bit of an idea of tactics.

No thanks, I'd rather go commit self murder.

Anyway, could I get some examples of these so called tactics?

(As apparently Dawn of War isn't canon now. )

Most 40k books are pretty bad, but at least it is a better representation than Dawn of War. DoW 2 is pretty 40k-true though.

I really don't know what the hell you guys are doing comparing a space marine to a spartan. A space marine sheer strength alone outside of his power Armour is still twice that or more than a spartan. Let alone the fact that in their power Armour that they get even stronger. We somehow already estrablished that one bolter shot will kill a spartan. So going off of this, how many shots does it take with any guns from the spartans arsenal to kill a grunt, thats right a lowly grunt. If I remember correctly a battle rifle will take several shots against an unarmored grunt.

Really how can you compare super humans who can punch a whole through a rhino to master chief who can barely punch things on his level to death?

That's just ir Protoman, this discussion is idiotic. We're basing facts of two fantasy/sci-fi settings that are roughly based similiar. Add to this the fact that some people have a hard on for Spartans and the fact that we have pre-pubescent children with Halo 3 and every unlocked achievement and the whole Halo book collection makes this an impossible debate to win for either side.

Frankly, and I am biased I know, there is no way these two compare properly. There is so much, "IF THIS HAPPENED" in this discussion that it cannot be kept sane anymore. Also, it doesn't help that us 40k fluff nazis won't say no and are as stubborn as a donkey being forced into the ocean.

Ok let me put this short and simple.
Space Marines are 20x stronger than a average human.
Spartans are only 10x stronger, also Spartans may have shields but....
Space Marine power Armor is pretty powerful it has a shield of its own. Because Spartan Armor is made out of steel. Space Marine Armor is made out of Adamantium.
Space Marine Bolters are so powerful compare them to Artillery Weapons in WW1. Then the assualt rifle for the Spartan is very small its like a M16 of today +plus an upgrade of more bullets. Your Standard Marine is fast and uses tactics everytime, that and their IQ is 300 or more. (source White Dwarf 300)
Also the Spartan's Spartan Laser is like a Lasgun, thats it. For one thing the 40k universes technology is very very advanced, were talking about weapons that break sound barriers without even trying. Space marines would kill the Master Cheif with just flicking him in the face.
Also don't base your thoughts and arguments from a 10 year old standard, the Spartans are like 38,000 years before space marines, Space marines have everything and they outnumber spartans 1000 to 1 so i don't know how a spartan who is outnumbered, outgunned, outclassed, outranked, outmanuavered, and angry marines with power armor running at you, I think they are F---ed.
plus Spartans are Space Marine Rip-offs.

Wait, for the spartan, I just realized, they'll use anything. They fight damn dirty. But I'm not sure a space marine will pick up a battle rifle if his bolter were out.
@Emperor's Faithful: Well in the last level of halo 2, the hunters in the last room, the two hunters could take on the 10 or so brutes. Bu that's on easy.

Space marines are known for fighting dirty.

Really?

Yes really. And C.S.Goto says that they'll pick up a MULTILASER over their standard equipment.

To be fair, I would give the SPlazer at least AP 4, if not 3.

Wait, D'oh! I did it again!

Asherian Command wrote:Ok let me put this short and simple.
Space Marines are 20x stronger than a average human.
Spartans are only 10x stronger, also Spartans may have shields but....
Space Marine power Armor is pretty powerful it has a shield of its own. Because Spartan Armor is made out of steel. Space Marine Armor is made out of Adamantium.
Space Marine Bolters are so powerful compare them to Artillery Weapons in WW1. Then the assualt rifle for the Spartan is very small its like a M16 of today +plus an upgrade of more bullets. Your Standard Marine is fast and uses tactics everytime, that and their IQ is 300 or more. (source White Dwarf 300)
Also the Spartan's Spartan Laser is like a Lasgun, thats it. For one thing the 40k universes technology is very very advanced, were talking about weapons that break sound barriers without even trying. Space marines would kill the Master Cheif with just flicking him in the face.
Also don't base your thoughts and arguments from a 10 year old standard, the Spartans are like 38,000 years before space marines, Space marines have everything and they outnumber spartans 1000 to 1 so i don't know how a spartan who is outnumbered, outgunned, outclassed, outranked, outmanuavered, and angry marines with power armor running at you, I think they are F---ed.
plus Spartans are Space Marine Rip-offs.

Okay, this entire post wasn't that well thought through and largely lacking in fluff support from both sides. But the stuff in bold really makes me lol.

Yeah, Asherian you are exaggerating there. A lasgun can blow your arm off, but not explode a jeep. A bolter can explode your entire chest, but not wreck a trench and make a crater. Space marine armor has no shields, but it does have auto-reactive shot blocking shoulder pads. No idea how those work though.

Spartans got raped on Reach.

They fail.

Henners91 wrote:Space Marines got raped on Maccragge.

They fail.

See how that works?

And let's not even get into all the Astartes Chapters that have been decimated during the course of the more recent Hive Fleets(namely because they keep adding more and more obscure Chapters to get devoured).

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:That's just ir Protoman, this discussion is idiotic. We're basing facts of two fantasy/sci-fi settings that are roughly based similiar. Add to this the fact that some people have a hard on for Spartans and the fact that we have pre-pubescent children with Halo 3 and every unlocked achievement and the whole Halo book collection makes this an impossible debate to win for either side.

Frankly, and I am biased I know, there is no way these two compare properly. There is so much, "IF THIS HAPPENED" in this discussion that it cannot be kept sane anymore. Also, it doesn't help that us 40k fluff nazis won't say no and are as stubborn as a donkey being forced into the ocean.

Well this reminds me of the thread of how our society today would handle space marines coming to earth, and everyone saying that we would stand a pretty good chance. I really don't understand why the hard on for master chief is so adamant. If you like Master chief fine and dandy go on and give him a handjob but don't compare two things and think that they would stand a chance because your stiffy rips through your pants.

Good post by the way Lorgar.

TheTrueProtoman wrote:

Lorgar's_Blessed wrote:That's just ir Protoman, this discussion is idiotic. We're basing facts of two fantasy/sci-fi settings that are roughly based similiar. Add to this the fact that some people have a hard on for Spartans and the fact that we have pre-pubescent children with Halo 3 and every unlocked achievement and the whole Halo book collection makes this an impossible debate to win for either side.

Frankly, and I am biased I know, there is no way these two compare properly. There is so much, "IF THIS HAPPENED" in this discussion that it cannot be kept sane anymore. Also, it doesn't help that us 40k fluff nazis won't say no and are as stubborn as a donkey being forced into the ocean.

Well this reminds me of the thread of how our society today would handle space marines coming to earth, and everyone saying that we would stand a pretty good chance. I really don't understand why the hard on for master chief is so adamant. If you like Master chief fine and dandy go on and give him a handjob but don't compare two things and think that they would stand a chance because your stiffy rips through your pants.

Good post by the way Lorgar.

Why thank you Proto, and a nice post yourself. I find a bit of witty humor while I dryly insult a thread makes for a much better time.

I really don't understand why the hard on for Space Marines is so adamant. If you like Space Marines that's fine and dandy go on and give them a handjob but don't compare two things and think that they wouldn't stand a chance because your stiffy rips through your pants.

It works both ways.

The problem is that there is, period, no direct way to keep the comparison unbiased.

Astartes die to Guardsmen quite often. Hell, they die to Ork Shootas--which are pretty much stubbers/assault rifles.