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agnosto wrote:WolfMoose?

@ Nurglitch,
It's a game. If you want a story, read a book; if you want a game, play it. If it meant anything, the company that makes it would actually hold to a storyline; instead they change fluff whenever the whim strikes them and the people the black library books are often worse than fan-fiction.

While it is a shame that the current attitude of GW is to promote the power of armies over their place in the 40k universe (a mistake other games *cough* magic *cough* have made), the current fan base for the game would probably be playing other things were it not for the awesome fluff that exists in general. Imagine, if you will, people slogging through the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th editions without the imagination sparking potential of the semi-fleshed out 40k universe behind them.

I don't see how these new Codices change the imagination sparking ability of the game.

Wouldn't adding quirks and new ideas make a universe more fleshed out?

Slackermagee wrote:While it is a shame that the current attitude of GW is to promote the power of armies over their place in the 40k universe (a mistake other games *cough* magic *cough* have made), the current fan base for the game would probably be playing other things were it not for the awesome fluff that exists in general. Imagine, if you will, people slogging through the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th editions without the imagination sparking potential of the semi-fleshed out 40k universe behind them.

I don't see how Magic the Gathering does that.

All the colors are supposed to be balanced in-universe, and Wizards tries to balance them for the tabletop too. Sure, there's cases of ridiculous fluff power/game power contrasts (4 Grizzly Bears>Lord of the Pit), but that's been around since the game's creation.

Monster Rain wrote:I think the more salient point is that the Taxonomy of Fenrisian Alien WolfMoose is nothing to get one's panties in a twist over.

Fantastico.

If we are going by the book fluff where are my marine's multi-lasers?
Mass dreadnoughts kind of destroy the game for me, sure they have to table but it's not even close to an enjoyable game.

Necroman wrote:

sebster wrote:Of course not. There are creatures that look exactly like wolves, that are named after the latin word for wolf, that are closely associated with the space marine chapter the Space Wolves. But there's no wolves.

Mind if I sig this?

All yours mate

solkan wrote:Or maybe you'd like to start complaining that the Space Marines aren't actually marines because they don't train to serve at sea?

That'd be a scary practice. If they fell off the side they'd sink right to the bottom.

Nurglitch wrote:Yes, why would anyone on a Warhammer 40k web forum actually care about the background, or the game for that matter?

You don't see a difference between caring about the background, and arguing over whether a creature is a wolf, or something else that merely looks like a wolf and is frequently called a wolf.

Because it's not actually an argument over the background, its an argument over pedantics.

WarWizard91 wrote:If we are going by the book fluff where are my marine's multi-lasers?
Mass dreadnoughts kind of destroy the game for me, sure they have to table but it's not even close to an enjoyable game.

I want to try and play a Dreadnought army again. How does that destroy the game? I imagine a 6+ Dreadnought army in 1500-2000 pts game would suck. Blood Talons? Every time I have played with one or two dreads, I always suffer a weapon destroyed, and then the whole magic is destroyed. A Furioso/Death Company dreadnought is pretty much useless if you get 3+ on a pen roll, or 5+ on a glance.

About the ridiculous wolf/not wolf issue:
The army is called Space WOLVES, they are inspired about vikings and wolves. Their planet is named after the Norse mythological wolf Fenris, and they ride on creatures that are more similar to wolves than anything else. Are they wolves? Of course! Are we talking earth-wolves? Of course not, then they'd be useless. Space Marines aren't earth humans, even Guardsmen are hardly earth men. So what the fekk is the problem? Is the biggest mistake to call them wolves? When everything about Space Wolves including their name and home planet are inspired by wolf?

solkan wrote:Or maybe you'd like to start complaining that the Space Marines aren't actually marines because they don't train to serve at sea?

That doesn't work because:

1. They serve in space, and they're Space Marines.
2. Marines do more than just serve on ships these days.

The army is fine, just tighten up your own tactics.

What kills me with thousands of red hot needles covered in hot sauce into my eyeballs is the horrible fluff. Man oh geesh it sucks!!

Baxx / Sebb - the point started because someone thought it was rediculous that a Wolf (that would be lupine, not canine, their error) could carry a SM, as their spine would collapse. I then pointed out that there are no wolves on Fenris - they are actually gengineered from "something else", as backed up by BL book on the Horus heresy. And it is semantics, to be pedantic.

Calling the official books telling the consistent story of the Horus Heresy not "canon" is, frankly, laughable. They're *way* more consistent than the constant revision of codexes, and published by the same company (company ownership) as produce the game. Argument from a position of ignorance is never good.

The BA codex does NEW things, so it isnt just another boring SM variant colour scheme army. Whats the result? People whine and complain.

They are not over powered.

They are not undercosted.

They are not game breaking, just slight changing. IN a good way. Everyones reaction to 5th was proliferation of "low qualtiy" fire - cover saves meant that breaking armour was less of a concern. Now with 3+ FNP marines around you need quality again.

Shocking, its almost like theyre trying to balance things across a wide selection of armies, such that there is no one magic "winner takes all" army archetype! We cant have that!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Baxx / Sebb - the point started because someone thought it was rediculous that a Wolf (that would be lupine, not canine, their error) could carry a SM, as their spine would collapse. I then pointed out that there are no wolves on Fenris - they are actually gengineered from "something else", as backed up by BL book on the Horus heresy. And it is semantics, to be pedantic.

Calling the official books telling the consistent story of the Horus Heresy not "canon" is, frankly, laughable. They're *way* more consistent than the constant revision of codexes, and published by the same company (company ownership) as produce the game. Argument from a position of ignorance is never good.

The BA codex does NEW things, so it isnt just another boring SM variant colour scheme army. Whats the result? People whine and complain.

They are not over powered.

They are not undercosted.

They are not game breaking, just slight changing. IN a good way. Everyones reaction to 5th was proliferation of "low qualtiy" fire - cover saves meant that breaking armour was less of a concern. Now with 3+ FNP marines around you need quality again.

Shocking, its almost like theyre trying to balance things across a wide selection of armies, such that there is no one magic "winner takes all" army archetype! We cant have that!

I would take the Thousand Sons proclamation of "There are no wolves on Fenris." with a huge grain of salt. The book was written specifically from the perspective of the Thousand Sons. Of course there is some canon in the book that is within the 40k historical timeline, but the book is quite full of Thousand Son propaganda to tell how their home planet was destroyed, from their point of view.

Expect to see the "other" side of the story when Prospero Burns is released. Even as a SW player, I know that it will be a propaganda piece for the Space Wolves and will read it accordingly.

As for the statement that a wolves spine would collaspe, hey are compared to be of the build of a "Terran rhinoceroid" and are as tall as a Space Marine. They hunt Fenrisian mastadons. They may look wolf-like but are not wolves per se and are fully capable of carrying an 800lb Space Marine.

Which was my point - comparing them to an Earth wolf and saying they would not be able to cope was a poor argument.

Also it isnt propaganda at that point - where they delve into the wolves DNA they themselves were shocked at what they found there. Again, not saying theyre earth wolves, but it suggests their heightened intelligence compared to a "normal" animal is actually because they are dumb versions of an intelligent creature - man.

agnosto wrote: If it meant anything, the company that makes it would actually hold to a storyline; instead they change fluff whenever the whim strikes them and the people the black library books are often worse than fan-fiction.

Ah, I remember when a carnifex was a pistol sized tool with a spring-loaded spike... that the apothecaries used for mercy killing fallen brother marines....

Of course the über wolves won't have any problems carry a space wolves marine on it's back. How could that possibly be a problem? It's stronger than a horse ffs.

Anyway, the new codex is delicious and I'm having problems waiting until next time I can play, trying different armies each time.

Necroman wrote:
All the colors are supposed to be balanced in-universe, and Wizards tries to balance them for the tabletop too. Sure, there's cases of ridiculous fluff power/game power contrasts (4 Grizzly Bears>Lord of the Pit), but that's been around since the game's creation.

Old joke: How many mosquitos does it take to kill a bear?

If you're playing Magic, the answer is, "2".

Anyway, i'm just annoyed with Sanguinor the Sanguine Lord and Heir to Sanguinius Sanguinely Sanguinizing the Sanguine Foes at the head of his Sanguinary Guard.

I kind of like the Sanguinor, however, I believe some of the stories about the sanguinor are over-the-top. But mind you this is based off second hand knowledge. Along with the whole 'avenging angel' thing going on, which makes him seem like a good warp creature or some sort.

The sanguinor is an alright model but the fluff is a bunch of Matt Ward hooey as far as fluff is considered. I mean seriously a magic angel marine appearing out of no where and saving the day. Whenever the Sanguinor is mentioned, I think of this.

StarHunter25 wrote:I was reading through all the various campaigns talked about in the BE codex, and how the Sanguinator was in a lot of them. Every time, he shows up at the exact right moment, in the exact right place, with his sword going into the exact right guy. Then it hit me, that he must be a tactical genius or something...

themocaw wrote:

Necroman wrote:
All the colors are supposed to be balanced in-universe, and Wizards tries to balance them for the tabletop too. Sure, there's cases of ridiculous fluff power/game power contrasts (4 Grizzly Bears>Lord of the Pit), but that's been around since the game's creation.

Old joke: How many mosquitos does it take to kill a bear?

If you're playing Magic, the answer is, "2".

One Bear Cub=One Grizzly Bear.

I never liked the BA fluff. Red thirst, come on.

All those fast vehicles are a bit silly when you compare with vehicles of other Chapters.

Vanilla Space Marines have no overpowered HQ's in cc, BA has. So what?
The game emphasizes moving and shooting, not so much cc.

Lysander would own most of the fancy-schmancy BA characters, or at the very least put up a damn good fight.

candy.man wrote:The sanguinor is an alright model but the fluff is a bunch of Matt Ward hooey as far as fluff is considered. I mean seriously a magic angel marine appearing out of no where and saving the day. Whenever the Sanguinor is mentioned, I think of this.

StarHunter25 wrote:I was reading through all the various campaigns talked about in the BE codex, and how the Sanguinator was in a lot of them. Every time, he shows up at the exact right moment, in the exact right place, with his sword going into the exact right guy. Then it hit me, that he must be a tactical genius or something...

He's a tactical genius....that can only mean that he's actually CREED in disguise. Man, that cat gets around.

wuestenfux wrote:I never liked the BA fluff. Red thirst, come on.

Yeah, it should be "Blood Thirst" to match the other "Blood" nomenclature in the Codex..

Grim.Badger wrote:I'm not sure about anyone else, but to me the BA codex seems to have brought about more feelings of "That's just not right" within the 40k community(

just wait until next year when they move to capitalize on their new demographic set the "Marines riding giant wolves and flying land Raiders ZOMG111" crowd with a combined BA/SW codex featuring a new unit of super bad-ass wolfman assault marines:


Th kiddos are gonna love it...

Blood angels (IMO) were supposed to allude to being sparkly vampires, while still remaining mostly Space Marines. Now they are sparkly vampires who just use the gear of space marines while they fly around with magical psychic dreadnoughts, with meltapistols on every sergent, flying land raiders, nipple-armor, sanguinary sanguine priests who inspire the sanguine guard to fight sanguinarily for the sanguintastic primarch sanguinious, who oddly enough, forces his champions to wear nipple armor while trying to drink the blood of their foes. Oh, and the one sparkly vampire who decided to NOT drink blood somehow becomes a super-saiyen who refuses to play nicely with others.

a similarly sarcastic arguement can be made for Space Wolves, with their Wolf riding Wolf champions who wear wolf pelts while howling like wolves for their wolf lord who tells them to fight like wolves into combat vs some sparkly vampires who want to drink their blood.

TLDR: Blood angel codex fluff is terribad, its like they took the worst part of the Space Wolf codex (thunderwolves) and morphed it to fit Blood Angels, then wrote the whole codex about it.

@Demogerg

LMAO. +1 to you.

Demogerg wrote:a similarly sarcastic arguement can be made for Space Wolves, with their Wolf riding Wolf champions who wear wolf pelts while howling like wolves for their wolf lord who tells them to fight like wolves into combat vs some sparkly vampires who want to drink their blood.

TLDR: Blood angel codex fluff is terribad, its like they took the worst part of the Space Wolf codex (thunderwolves) and morphed it to fit Blood Angels, then wrote the whole codex about it.

Shhh, now you're going to make someone come in here and tell us that they're not wolves.

By the way, I liked the fluff of the 13th Company lost in the warp.
They played differently when compared with the normal SW codex.
But GW decided to drop them.
Bad decision.

The fluff is terrible, the army is not.

The games I have played with (and against) the new codex have either gone the way of the dice or have otherwise been quite close.

But after having lost 4/5 Land Raiders to the Deepstrike mishaps, I have chosen to write off that rule.

cosmic pixie wrote:The fluff is terrible, the army is not.

The games I have played with (and against) the new codex have either gone the way of the dice or have otherwise been quite close.

But after having lost 4/5 Land Raiders to the Deepstrike mishaps, I have chosen to write off that rule.

At what point did deep striking a small shoe box seem like a good idea?

kaptaink wrote:

cosmic pixie wrote:The fluff is terrible, the army is not.

The games I have played with (and against) the new codex have either gone the way of the dice or have otherwise been quite close.

But after having lost 4/5 Land Raiders to the Deepstrike mishaps, I have chosen to write off that rule.

At what point did deep striking a small shoe box seem like a good idea?

The same time that flying dreadnoughts did?