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I'm not sure about anyone else, but to me the BA codex seems to have brought about more feelings of "That's just not right" within the 40k community.

There are lots of things in the Codex, like Dante not scattering, a double hit St6 rending template, fast rhino-based vehicles, and common as muck dreadnoughts that just makes it feel like a Fan-Dex instead of something official
Just because something is pointed up right, doesn't mean that it doesn't break the spirit of the game. I was really looking forward to this codex as I started out playing BA, but the damn thing just makes me feel uncomfortable

1) Theyve had "fast" rhino chassis for a while now - just in the previous book int could go wrong. Now they are more expensive but reliable. And they *pay* for it - Baal preds are very expensive.

2) A special chracter doing something special? OMG!!

And its not even that useful - the one unit he should go with (Vanguards) still dont have a use as they lose their rule if he joins them

3) Again, their dreadnoughts are more common - as they succumb more easily to the thirst entombment is often the only way to go.

If you ignore the really, really out there stuff, it's not a bad codex. Just ignore the loyalist daemon prince (Mephiston), the deep striking dedicated transport Land Raiders, and the Stormraven, and you've got a decent enough codex. I just think of it as Codex: Fast Marines Who Sometimes Get Real Mad Angels.

What's wrong with the Stormraven?

The Codex does seem to contain some... Shall we say 'effective' units and rules.

But then, I haven't read it and I'm guessing that a lot of other complainers haven't read it either - or if they have, they didn't read past 'deep striking Land Radiers'.

Long story short - give it a few months, see how it does in tournaments etc, and wait for people to start hyperventilating about whatever is flavour of the month then.

I don't have a problem with the book being too powerful, Blood Angels wipe the floor with my armies every time anyway.
What really bugs me is the fact that they have stuff which would fit much better into an Ork army. Like a friggin' grappling hook on a Dread.

Played against them last night with my DE. I put a hurting on 'em but did lose out in the end. The only thing that concerns me is being able to re-roll....EVERYTHING! I suppose that's the effect of their blood rage, so ofc they have to succeed on their rolls to get it.

I hate the blood talons on dreads.

I don't think it's over powered, but I don't really 'get' why they did certain things like deep striking Lander Raiders and the Stormraven. It's like they were determined to pack as many subtle variations of deep strike into the Codex as they could.

That said, it's infinitely more preferable to their Dark Angels 'effort', the specialist Space Marines Codex that is more vanilla than Vanilla Marines.

Brother SRM wrote:If you ignore the really, really out there stuff, it's not a bad codex. Just ignore the loyalist daemon prince (Mephiston), the deep striking dedicated transport Land Raiders, and the Stormraven, and you've got a decent enough codex. I just think of it as Codex: Fast Marines Who Sometimes Get Real Mad Angels.

You mean ignore most of the special units

It's not so much that I think it's overpowered, it's just really weird...
Like having Sternguard when the last codex specifically said that the Veteran company doesn't have any tactical squads
And having straight up fast Vindicators is very different to overcharged engines on a Rhino - I know they're more expensive, but when has any fluff ever mentioned anything like this before?

Dante goes better with Sanguinary Guard than Vanguard, especially with lots of Inferno Pistols (which, again, break the spirit of the game as they are meant to be uber rare, not handed out like sweets).

I wouldn't go so far as to say that BA are game breaking, but they are high on the BS meter.

The only thing that REALLY annoys me is their assault squads.

Everyone keeps saying, "they have fast rhinos but they pay for it!"

But, really, they don't pay for it.

Ok, a blood angels assault squad is 18 points per model. A vanilla marine tactical squad is 16 points per model. You take ten of each. The blood angels assault squad comes out 20 points more. Ok, cool. Now, buy your rhinos. The blood angels assault squad gets their rhino at 15 points. The vanilla marine tactical squad gets theirs for 35. Oh, hey, a difference of twenty points! They're the same damn price when both are mounted in a rhino. Granted, the assault squad doesn't get a "free" heavy weapon, but it can pay for an additional assault weapon, which is probably better in most cases.

So, their basic troop is just straight up more efficient than the vanilla basic troop.

Tactical squads are able to get better special weapons to deal with things (gasp) in a tactical manner. Assault marines have pretty much one thing they are good at. Assaulting people. They have to remove their jump packs to get the vehicle eliminating their mobility. Assault Marines without jump packs just sounds like a bad idea to me since rhinos aren't all that durable of a transport. I have played against BA with my Tau and my Orks. They are harder for my orks since they hold up in assault rather well but my Tau still gun them down the same as standard marines. Can't assault me if you can't reach me.

I'll take a tactical squad over that unit. The second special weapon is nice, but not worth the loss of combat tactics and bolters. Plus, you're sticking an assault unit into a vehicle they can't assault from. Rhinos are more conducive to bolter-drive-by's that assaults.

I think assault squads are better used in one of two ways:

1. a large mob with attached character(s), with either jump packs (re-roll, 1D6 scatter), a Land Raider (35 points cheaper), or a Stormraven (very fast, and can carry a furioso with talons or librarian with force weapon+frag cannon for support).

2. Scoring/tank-hunting unit split into combat squads. One squad of 5 marines goes to ground in cover on an objective, the other half takes two meltaguns and maybe an infernus into a razorback (55 points for a fast twin-linked AC or LC) and goes munching vehicles.

Luke_Prowler wrote:I wouldn't go so far as to say that BA are game breaking, but they are high on the BS meter.

Thats my opinion as well. BA can be beat (I tied at 1500 pts last night vs 20+ sanquinary guard). But there is so much in their codex that just should not be. Its total BS. 2+ save things should not be getting FNP. Your 250 pt special character should not cripple my 250 pt character just because they are sitting on the same damn battlefield (Dante).

There are just some things that should not happen that do happen in the BA codex. Powerful, useless, cheap, or otherwise.

rocklord2004 wrote:Tactical squads are able to get better special weapons to deal with things (gasp) in a tactical manner. Assault marines have pretty much one thing they are good at. Assaulting people. They have to remove their jump packs to get the vehicle eliminating their mobility. Assault Marines without jump packs just sounds like a bad idea to me since rhinos aren't all that durable of a transport. I have played against BA with my Tau and my Orks. They are harder for my orks since they hold up in assault rather well but my Tau still gun them down the same as standard marines. Can't assault me if you can't reach me.

Pretty sure they have the same options for assault weapons. The only thing they don't get is the heavy. And, if you're firing a heavy weapon, odds are there's nine space marines you paid for standing around doing nothing. Or you split your tac squad into two five man groups one of which...really isn't that great.

Rhinos are perfectly durable. There are a lot of armies who have trouble popping tanks. Between smoke launchers and only a one in three shot of popping it on a pen, rhinos get you across the board just fine, at fewer casualties than a jump pack.

And not being able to assault from them is no big deal. You move up, you pop smoke. Next turn you get out and charge, having taken no shooting losses, unlike jump packs. And with, say, two flamers and a combi flamer...or two meltas and a combi melta...or, whatever you chose to take, their shooting ain't bad either.

And in place of combat tactics they get a one in six chance of having furious charge. Not the best trade in the world, but a hell of a lot better than stubborn.

So, just to break this down once more. For THE EXACT SAME POINTS you get a squad that swaps its bolters for close combat weapons (which is pretty comparable), can take two assault weapons (which is better), and gets fast transports. They are hands down better than tactical squads.

I still think SW and even C:SM. Plasma and ML take the down just as well.

It seems like a tough Dex. I couldn't ascertain any drawbacks to red thirst, and I supremely dislike the Psyker Dreads. I'm sure it will prove beatable, but for the time being, I don't like it.

Only things I have an issue with in that book are Jump Pack Dreadnoughts and Deep Striking Land Raiders. They're both super-stupid, and should never have made the cut.

And other than the heavy emphasis on Special Characters, which is not a Blood Angel problem, but a Jervis + Rest of the Studio problem, the rest of the book seems fine to me.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Only things I have an issue with in that book are Jump Pack Dreadnoughts and Deep Striking Land Raiders. They're both super-stupid, and should never have made the cut.

They're not 'jump-pack Dreadnoughts', H'. That would be silly.

They're psychic Dreadnoughts with magical wings.

Cheese Elemental wrote:They're psychic Dreadnoughts with magical wings.

Cheese, I think you just made my brain go stupid.

My only beefs with the codex, fast attack Baal Preds, fast vindicators. <-----

Platuan4th wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:They're psychic Dreadnoughts with magical wings.

Cheese, I think you just made my brain go stupid.

Don't blame Cheese, blame Matt Ward.

Partof1 wrote:It seems like a tough Dex. I couldn't ascertain any drawbacks to red thirst, and I supremely dislike the Psyker Dreads. I'm sure it will prove beatable, but for the time being, I don't like it.

Red Thirst is all draw-back.
1. It is not reliable enough to count on for Furious Charge, and you don't even need it since you can get that automatically with Sanguinary Priests.
2. Fearless is in many instances worse than ATSKNF, as it's the difference between escaping that Ork horde to assault them on your turn, and having to make extra saving throws.
3. Losing combat tactics is a hard blow to Angels' tactical and devastator squads. Again, it's the difference between escaping a hopeless combat to bring your weapons to bear, and slowly getting chewed up in close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

whocares wrote:Pretty sure they have the same options for assault weapons. The only thing they don't get is the heavy. And, if you're firing a heavy weapon, odds are there's nine space marines you paid for standing around doing nothing. Or you split your tac squad into two five man groups one of which...really isn't that great.

Rhinos are perfectly durable. There are a lot of armies who have trouble popping tanks. Between smoke launchers and only a one in three shot of popping it on a pen, rhinos get you across the board just fine, at fewer casualties than a jump pack.

And not being able to assault from them is no big deal. You move up, you pop smoke. Next turn you get out and charge, having taken no shooting losses, unlike jump packs. And with, say, two flamers and a combi flamer...or two meltas and a combi melta...or, whatever you chose to take, their shooting ain't bad either.

And in place of combat tactics they get a one in six chance of having furious charge. Not the best trade in the world, but a hell of a lot better than stubborn.

So, just to break this down once more. For THE EXACT SAME POINTS you get a squad that swaps its bolters for close combat weapons (which is pretty comparable), can take two assault weapons (which is better), and gets fast transports. They are hands down better than tactical squads.

To address your points in order:

1. Yes, they get the same options for assault weapons, but they pay full price for them, as opposed to getting them for free or a discount. 5-man tactical teams with missile launchers are great objective holders, or if a multi-melta is taken instead, gives a great anti-tank option or protection against tank shock.
2. "A lot of armies who have trouble popping tanks"? I'm sorry, if there are any armies like that in 5th edition, then they would lose against 99% of tournament armies anyway, so they don't deserve any consideration. But yes, rhinos are certainly a safer way to cross the field than jump packs, I just think they favor tactical squads more. For example, an assault squad in a rhino will have to be smaller than full-sized in order to accommodate characters, which means you give up the second assault weapon.
3. That tactic of popping smoke and charging next turn is genius.... unless you're facing an army also capable in close combat and you just gave them both the charge and wasted your Furious Charge advantage. Rhinos with smoke are resilient, but given the cost of each tooled-up assault squad (300+), they only need to pop one or two to completely blunt your attack.
4. Furious Charge that they could have gotten anyway in exchange for losing ATSKNF, these two cancel each other out. It's easier to say they simply lose combat tactics in exchange for their weapon/vehicle options.
5. A tactical squad with flamer/MM in a rhino costs 10 points less than an assault squad with two flamers in a rhino. More than 10 if we're talking more expensive special weapons.

So you're trading boltguns (which I think are highly underrated) and a heavy weapon for close combat weapons and a second assault weapon, which is a pretty even trade. You are still paying 10-15 extra points for the fast vehicle, and you lose Combat Tactics simply for the benefit of being a Blood Angel, i.e. being able to get buffed by Sanguinary Priests, which are an additional easily-killed 50-point character. Sounds like a pretty fair trade-off, nothing "hands down better" about them.

Terminus wrote:

Partof1 wrote:It seems like a tough Dex. I couldn't ascertain any drawbacks to red thirst, and I supremely dislike the Psyker Dreads. I'm sure it will prove beatable, but for the time being, I don't like it.

Red Thirst is all draw-back.
1. It is not reliable enough to count on for Furious Charge, and you don't even need it since you can get that automatically with Sanguinary Priests.
2. Fearless is in many instances worse than ATSKNF, as it's the difference between escaping that Ork horde to assault them on your turn, and having to make extra saving throws.
3. Losing combat tactics is a hard blow to Angels' tactical and devastator squads. Again, it's the difference between escaping a hopeless combat to bring your weapons to bear, and slowly getting chewed up in close combat.

OK, I don't play Space Marines, but who would take tactical squads when assault marines get all the goodies in this Codex?

No one. Without combat tactics, and with more expensive transports, Blood Angels tactical squads aren't worth the effort. If you tried to play them like regular Space Marines, you'd stink up the place. Of course, a buddy of mine is trying to prove me wrong on that point by using tactical squads supported by honor guard squads in razors (i.e. 4 more meltas/plasmas and a sanguinary priest), but adding up the points per unit leaves me unimpressed.

But BA tactical squads sucking doesn't make vanilla Space Marine tactical squads bad; they are cheaper and more flexible. Really, providing a distinct yet balanced play-style is one of the things this codex does well, in my opinion (it's mostly fluff and sense of decency where it fails ).

Terminus wrote:

Partof1 wrote:It seems like a tough Dex. I couldn't ascertain any drawbacks to red thirst, and I supremely dislike the Psyker Dreads. I'm sure it will prove beatable, but for the time being, I don't like it.

Red Thirst is all draw-back.
1. It is not reliable enough to count on for Furious Charge, and you don't even need it since you can get that automatically with Sanguinary Priests.
2. Fearless is in many instances worse than ATSKNF, as it's the difference between escaping that Ork horde to assault them on your turn, and having to make extra saving throws.
3. Losing combat tactics is a hard blow to Angels' tactical and devastator squads. Again, it's the difference between escaping a hopeless combat to bring your weapons to bear, and slowly getting chewed up in close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

whocares wrote:Pretty sure they have the same options for assault weapons. The only thing they don't get is the heavy. And, if you're firing a heavy weapon, odds are there's nine space marines you paid for standing around doing nothing. Or you split your tac squad into two five man groups one of which...really isn't that great.

Rhinos are perfectly durable. There are a lot of armies who have trouble popping tanks. Between smoke launchers and only a one in three shot of popping it on a pen, rhinos get you across the board just fine, at fewer casualties than a jump pack.

And not being able to assault from them is no big deal. You move up, you pop smoke. Next turn you get out and charge, having taken no shooting losses, unlike jump packs. And with, say, two flamers and a combi flamer...or two meltas and a combi melta...or, whatever you chose to take, their shooting ain't bad either.

And in place of combat tactics they get a one in six chance of having furious charge. Not the best trade in the world, but a hell of a lot better than stubborn.

So, just to break this down once more. For THE EXACT SAME POINTS you get a squad that swaps its bolters for close combat weapons (which is pretty comparable), can take two assault weapons (which is better), and gets fast transports. They are hands down better than tactical squads.

To address your points in order:

1. Yes, they get the same options for assault weapons, but they pay full price for them, as opposed to getting them for free or a discount. 5-man tactical teams with missile launchers are great objective holders, or if a multi-melta is taken instead, gives a great anti-tank option or protection against tank shock.
2. "A lot of armies who have trouble popping tanks"? I'm sorry, if there are any armies like that in 5th edition, then they would lose against 99% of tournament armies anyway, so they don't deserve any consideration. But yes, rhinos are certainly a safer way to cross the field than jump packs, I just think they favor tactical squads more. For example, an assault squad in a rhino will have to be smaller than full-sized in order to accommodate characters, which means you give up the second assault weapon.
3. That tactic of popping smoke and charging next turn is genius.... unless you're facing an army also capable in close combat and you just gave them both the charge and wasted your Furious Charge advantage. Rhinos with smoke are resilient, but given the cost of each tooled-up assault squad (300+), they only need to pop one or two to completely blunt your attack.
4. Furious Charge that they could have gotten anyway in exchange for losing ATSKNF, these two cancel each other out. It's easier to say they simply lose combat tactics in exchange for their weapon/vehicle options.
5. A tactical squad with flamer/MM in a rhino costs 10 points less than an assault squad with two flamers in a rhino. More than 10 if we're talking more expensive special weapons.

So you're trading boltguns (which I think are highly underrated) and a heavy weapon for close combat weapons and a second assault weapon, which is a pretty even trade. You are still paying 10-15 extra points for the fast vehicle, and you lose Combat Tactics simply for the benefit of being a Blood Angel, i.e. being able to get buffed by Sanguinary Priests, which are an additional easily-killed 50-point character. Sounds like a pretty fair trade-off, nothing "hands down better" about them.

1) This is true. They may be about 10 points more. But a melta gun is just as good defense against tank shock as a multi melta.
2) Yeah, they do. Tanks are a lot harder to pop in fifth than they were in previous editions. Having your troops in transports is fantastic protection. Sure, they just about always blown up eventually, but as long as you get one move in, it doesn't really matter. And a tactical squad in a rhino that wants to include a character has the same problem, so it's even there.
3)How did you give them the charge? ...stay in the rhino. They'll need to blow it up before they get to you. Like I said, you can pen a rhino all you want, but anything but a destroyed result at that point did absolutely nothing, and it gets its save. And if it is an assault oriented army, pretty good odds it blows up vehicles in assault, which means you get the charge. And your squads should be in the mid 200 range.
4) Yeah, the furious charge I didn't even factor in.
5) This is true. But if you just keep the jump packs, they're about the same points. Maybe cheaper, depending on weapons. And ten points for six more inches on your rhino is insane. I think people are really under rating how good this is. Sure, tac squads can sit on objectives, but these squads can go grab them.

I'm not saying blood angels are the end all be all of top tier armies. They're not. I think duel lash/oblit spam will always be up on them. Well tooled guard lists as well. But it speaks poorly for a game's balance when the army which is supposed to be the ultimate mid-tier, balanced army (space marines) has its most core unit one upped in every way by one of its clones.

@OP: Not even *close* to "too far".

Right now, the answer to a chicken little cry is: lern 2 play.

If BA are dominating things 6 months to a year from now, like Daemons in WFB then yeah, I'll change my tune. But until you show us evidence of tournament lists that consistently win against Orks, Guard, *and* CSM, I think it's just newness.

2. A tactical squad doesn't need to include a character. All they need is their guns, and they use them to kill opposing scoring units.

In order to beat other close combat specialists, however, Blood Angels assault squads NEED characters. At the very least, they need that Sanguinary Priest, otherwise their combat abilities are no more impressive than vanilla assault squads.

3. 225 just for the unit with two flamers and a power fist, another 15 for the rhino. And at this point all you've done is trade weapon sets and given up combat tactics for fast, so you're not even that great in combat. If you add a priest, add about another 30 points or so and give up a special weapon. I am not seeing the huge disparity that makes them so much better than vanilla tac squads. Again, they only need to pop one or two rhinos to cancel the Furious Charge and blunt your assault.

5. Ah, but didn't we just decide that rhinos are superior to jump packs? In any case, fast is great, but rhinos benefit the least from it since they basically have no guns. But yes, the option for a 18" scoot is great, and predators/razorbacks/vindicators benefit immensely from this rule.

So I still vehemently disagree that the vanilla tactical squad is "one upped in every way" by Blood Angels assault squads. Their vehicles are flat-out better, and they may underpay for the privilege just a smidge, but from a balance perspective it's hardly game-breaking.

It's more offensive from a fluff perspective. Fiddling with their engines to squeeze out some extra speed at the risk of burning them out was offensive enough to the Machine Spirit. Now it's obvious the Blood Angels have co-opted Xenos technology, a heresy that begets swift retribution. The upcoming GK codex better have an entire short story about them purging the Blood Angels and taking back their stolen Stormravens.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@OP: Not even *close* to "too far".

Right now, the answer to a chicken little cry is: lern 2 play.

If BA are dominating things 6 months to a year from now, like Daemons in WFB then yeah, I'll change my tune. But until you show us evidence of tournament lists that consistently win against Orks, Guard, *and* CSM, I think it's just newness.

Like I said it's not a case of them being overpowered, more a case of BS.
Like a transport that can carry 2 units and isn't Apoc only
Magna Grapples - 2am idea if I've ever heard it: maybe for Orks, but certainly not right for SM of any kind.

Plus, just because you've fitted a larger engine to a tank, doesn't mean it will be more stable and able to fire after moving 12"; the gun will still be waving about all over the place which is one reason why Fast Rhino varients annoys me so much...

I wanted to like this Codex, I really did, but any time I try to read it I come away with a feeling that I'm doing something wrong