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Something to add about Blood Angel Assault Squads: They share a problem with their co-religionists the Chaos Space Marine Berzerkers: they can take objectives, but they suck at holding objectives because they lack the integral firepower to reach out while holding position.

Grim.Badger wrote:
Plus, just because you've fitted a larger engine to a tank, doesn't mean it will be more stable and able to fire after moving 12"; the gun will still be waving about all over the place which is one reason why Fast Rhino varients annoys me so much...

Like I said, Xenos technology. Their exterminatus shall be as swift as it is irrevocable.

Nurglitch wrote:Something to add about Blood Angel Assault Squads: They share a problem with their co-religionists the Chaos Space Marine Berzerkers: they can take objectives, but they suck at holding objectives because they lack the integral firepower to reach out while holding position.

The key difference is that AM can take Deep-Striking Land Raiders as Trasnsports. When you're in an AV14/14/14 Tank with a ton of long-ranged guns, you can probably do a decent job of holding an Objective.

Actually, thinking about it, a AM squad could wait in reserve then DS in on the last turn much more accurately with Decent of Angels to steal any unclaimed objectives.

That will be hard when you're re-rolling failed reserve roles. You have a 75% chance to come in on turn 2 and an 89% chance on turn 3.

Anyway, for all the fluff nonsense of the BA codex, I like how IG, SW, Nids and now BA are taking the game back towards more of a zanier 2nd edition feel. I bet the Grey Knights are going to be all kinds of off the hook.

Terminus wrote:2. A tactical squad doesn't need to include a character. All they need is their guns, and they use them to kill opposing scoring units.

In order to beat other close combat specialists, however, Blood Angels assault squads NEED characters. At the very least, they need that Sanguinary Priest, otherwise their combat abilities are no more impressive than vanilla assault squads.

3. 225 just for the unit with two flamers and a power fist, another 15 for the rhino. And at this point all you've done is trade weapon sets and given up combat tactics for fast, so you're not even that great in combat. If you add a priest, add about another 30 points or so and give up a special weapon. I am not seeing the huge disparity that makes them so much better than vanilla tac squads. Again, they only need to pop one or two rhinos to cancel the Furious Charge and blunt your assault.

5. Ah, but didn't we just decide that rhinos are superior to jump packs? In any case, fast is great, but rhinos benefit the least from it since they basically have no guns. But yes, the option for a 18" scoot is great, and predators/razorbacks/vindicators benefit immensely from this rule.

So I still vehemently disagree that the vanilla tactical squad is "one upped in every way" by Blood Angels assault squads. Their vehicles are flat-out better, and they may underpay for the privilege just a smidge, but from a balance perspective it's hardly game-breaking.

It's more offensive from a fluff perspective. Fiddling with their engines to squeeze out some extra speed at the risk of burning them out was offensive enough to the Machine Spirit. Now it's obvious the Blood Angels have co-opted Xenos technology, a heresy that begets swift retribution. The upcoming GK codex better have an entire short story about them purging the Blood Angels and taking back their stolen Stormravens.

2) Why do blood angels need to contend with assault specialists, while vanilla marines do not?

All vanilla tac squads have over blood angel assault squads is bolters versus bolt pistols. All this means is that each marine in the squad that is not specialized in some way gets one more shot. (usually meaning seven more shots). However, blood angels get one more attack in close combat. Now, when those vanilla marines do a bolter drive by, assuming their weapons were in range, on their opponent's turn they'll be in charge range. So, they end up in it with those combat specialists as well. And at ws 4 st 4 whether I have one more close combat attack or one more bolter shot, is about the same to me. Not to mention, you do combat on both turns, so there are good odds you end up getting more attacks out of the close combat weapon than the bolter. So all in all, I'd say the pistol and combat weapon are at least as good as the bolter, if not better.

3) See, that's exactly it. You arm them just like vanilla tac squads. And they more or less are vanilla tac squads with the extra special weapon (which is, in my opinion better than a heavy), close combat weapons (again, in my opinion, better), and a rhino that moves six inches faster. Not to mention, that you can shoot out of when it moves 12". So, yeah, basically just treat it like a tac squad, and it will be a tac squad...but better.

5) Rhinos are better. A russ can wipe out a squad of jump pacs. Only has a 2/9 chance of popping a rhino. (assuming no scatter). But, they have the choice. And having a choice is always better than not having one. See, the predators (really? predators? I wouldn't pay for fast on them), vindicators, etc pay for it. The rhinos...basically don't. And rhinos are full of scoring units.

I agree with this. Let the purging commence!

IMHO, the only things I really dislike about the book are;

A.) Sternguard and Vanguard should have been Vanilla Marine only. They were cool new special units that Vanilla got for not being fancy and specialized, and should have remained so, with BA getting their fancy new Sanguinary Guard. Which brings me to...

B.) Yes, I get it, they're BLOOD Angels. You didn't need to name every frakking piece of wargear they get Blood this, or Sanguinary (latin for blood!) that. Hey, this rule doesn't have word Blood in it's name! Better throw in Angel then to make sure they don't forget what Codex this is!

Aduro wrote:B.) Yes, I get it, they're BLOOD Angels. You didn't need to name every frakking piece of wargear they get Blood this, or Sanguinary (latin for blood!) that. Hey, this rule doesn't have word Blood in it's name! Better throw in Angel then to make sure they don't forget what Codex this is!

Wait for the Dark / Death / Raven / Angel book update....

Where's Kyoto's definition fo the Red Marines when you need it?

Terminus wrote:It's more offensive from a fluff perspective. Fiddling with their engines to squeeze out some extra speed at the risk of burning them out was offensive enough to the Machine Spirit. Now it's obvious the Blood Angels have co-opted Xenos technology, a heresy that begets swift retribution. The upcoming GK codex better have an entire short story about them purging the Blood Angels and taking back their stolen Stormravens.

Fluff wise the Ad mech should have sent a small detachment of Titans to them when they withheld the STC for the Baal Pred. Now they're just pushing their luck and plot armour as mariens. It would be the Xeno Hunters, not GK (but maybe the engines are influenced by daemons, with all the blood rage I suspect them to be under the influence of Khorne ).

whocares wrote:2) Why do blood angels need to contend with assault specialists, while vanilla marines do not?

Because tactical marines don't try to duke it out in melee with these specialists, but rather just shoot them in the face. Or if engaged, they use combat tactics to escape combat, and THEN shoot them in the face. And "assault specialists" can mean anything from large boyz squads to Grey Hunters with a totem and mark. Without at the very least a Sanguinary Priest, the BA assault marines will get owned by such units.

Assault Marines really need to be charging with a Sanguinary Priest in order to be exceptional in any way. If not charging, they are pretty mediocre in close combat, mainly relying on their resilience due to FNP to eek out a 1- or 2-margin combat resolution to win assaults. Looking at other MEQ units, without the priest's buffs the blood angels are worse in close combat than Grey Hunters, CSM and Berserkers, and are worse in a tactical role than Tactical Marines, Grey Hunters, CSM and Plague Marines.

3) See, that's exactly it. You arm them just like vanilla tac squads. And they more or less are vanilla tac squads with the extra special weapon (which is, in my opinion better than a heavy), close combat weapons (again, in my opinion, better), and a rhino that moves six inches faster. Not to mention, that you can shoot out of when it moves 12". So, yeah, basically just treat it like a tac squad, and it will be a tac squad...but better.

We've gone over this before, you're paying anywhere between 10 and 15 points more, and are losing combat tactics for the privilege of that fast vehicle and second weapon. Pretty fair trade, especially considering the assault squad also needs a nearby Sanguinary Priest to be remarkable.

Also, no you CANNOT shoot out of it when it moves 12". The rulebook is VERY CLEAR about this, units may not shoot out of vehicles that move at cruising speed, regardless of how uber its engines are.

Aduro wrote:
A.) Sternguard and Vanguard should have been Vanilla Marine only. They were cool new special units that Vanilla got for not being fancy and specialized, and should have remained so, with BA getting their fancy new Sanguinary Guard. Which brings me to...

Vanguard were derived from the elite Veteran Assault Marines in the old pdf BA Codex. I think it was right for them to remain. I agree that sternguard should have been left out.

B.) Yes, I get it, they're BLOOD Angels. You didn't need to name every frakking piece of wargear they get Blood this, or Sanguinary (latin for blood!) that. Hey, this rule doesn't have word Blood in it's name! Better throw in Angel then to make sure they don't forget what Codex this is!

yeah, all the blood stuff does sound worse than all the wolf stuff in the wolf book, but I don't know why. It just does.

Terminus wrote:

whocares wrote:2) Why do blood angels need to contend with assault specialists, while vanilla marines do not?

Because tactical marines don't try to duke it out in melee with these specialists, but rather just shoot them in the face. Or if engaged, they use combat tactics to escape combat, and THEN shoot them in the face. And "assault specialists" can mean anything from large boyz squads to Grey Hunters with a totem and mark. Without at the very least a Sanguinary Priest, the BA assault marines will get owned by such units.

Assault Marines really need to be charging with a Sanguinary Priest in order to be exceptional in any way. If not charging, they are pretty mediocre in close combat, mainly relying on their resilience due to FNP to eek out a 1- or 2-margin combat resolution to win assaults. Looking at other MEQ units, without the priest's buffs the blood angels are worse in close combat than Grey Hunters, CSM and Berserkers, and are worse in a tactical role than Tactical Marines, Grey Hunters, CSM and Plague Marines.

3) See, that's exactly it. You arm them just like vanilla tac squads. And they more or less are vanilla tac squads with the extra special weapon (which is, in my opinion better than a heavy), close combat weapons (again, in my opinion, better), and a rhino that moves six inches faster. Not to mention, that you can shoot out of when it moves 12". So, yeah, basically just treat it like a tac squad, and it will be a tac squad...but better.

We've gone over this before, you're paying anywhere between 10 and 15 points more, and are losing combat tactics for the privilege of that fast vehicle and second weapon. Pretty fair trade, especially considering the assault squad also needs a nearby Sanguinary Priest to be remarkable.

Also, no you CANNOT shoot out of it when it moves 12". The rulebook is VERY CLEAR about this, units may not shoot out of vehicles that move at cruising speed, regardless of how uber its engines are.

It's not about being remarkable. How often is a tactical squad remarkable? I suppose the answer to that question would depend on how you define the word, but you get my point.

So, 10-15 points for six more inches of movement, an extra assault weapon, and close combat weapons? Yeah, I'll make that trade any day of the week. As already stated, tactical marines only get seven more bolter shots than the assault squad, and the assault squad gets seven more close combat attacks, which it makes twice per turn once in combat. And combat tactics is really nice, but also really situational. I love when my opponents opt to run, roll too low, and I end up following them off the board with a spare attack bike or empty rhino.

And all the units you listed (with the exception of CSM) are way more expensive than a BA assault squad. And they would wipe out a tac squad just as easily, so it's a moot point. And I'm not really seeing how a generic CSM squad is inherently better than a BA assault squad, unless it has been upgraded sufficiently that it is also far more expensive. And again, then it would kill a tac squad just as well.

Good point about the rhinos. I always forget that damn rule. One of those things like trying to shoot a template weapon out of a fire point.

Anyway, we're obviously going in circles. Been nice talking to you.

Meh having skipped reading this thread I think its a nice codex I really saw nothing too overwhelming in it the Fast vehicals were expected. Besides the Storm Raven nothing in there too bad. And even that's only armour 12.

BA has better scoring units than marines.

You don't take 10 man BA assault squads, you take 5 man, sell the jump packs and buy your razorback on the cheap.

A 5 man BA assault squad w/flamer in a las/plas razorback is 160pts. And it's fast. Marines cannot get a unit like this at all and to just get one close costs 165.

It's a very effective unit. A couple of these, a fun bus (DC + LRC) along with some support in the form of baal preds, vindi's and a dread or two makes a nice 2k list.

Not to much cheddar in that one either.

Goodness gracious. The new codex certainly seems like everything in it is broken and unfluffy!

Once again, the Codex is good. Someday soon the post-update BA will become part of the "new normal" and it will be time to rant about... what... the Necrons?

Terminus wrote:
Also, no you CANNOT shoot out of it when it moves 12". The rulebook is VERY CLEAR about this, units may not shoot out of vehicles that move at cruising speed, regardless of how uber its engines are.

I thought it was flat out vehicle that the embarked unit couldn't shoot from with weapons.

Fast vindicators nothing special, you can only fire ordanace moving at combat speed. If you plan to move it flat out towards the enemy and not shoot you will only be moving to closer to its death.

If it is fast vehicles we are talking about how about combat speed on any of the preditor varieties (including baal). That is what freaks me about the dex. They can keep deep striking land raider, it will take one bad mishap and the tactic will be abandoned in competitive play if not already.

Stormraven on the other hand thats got something for definite aswell (shudders).

I also see tactical in rhinos as a potential option aswell as assault squads with JP. Assault squads without jump packs in Rhinos erm .... so so.

ceorron:

Could you cite a passage in the rulebook preventing a Fast vehicle from firing an Ordnance Weapon when moving at Cruising Speed?

I can't wait for the next Tau codex so that I may smugly defend the non-pwnage of my army.

No, heck, you are right. Yep you can fire ordance weapons from fast vehicles when moving at cruise speed. It only includes the exception for ordance barrage which it allows for fast vehicles at combat speed.

Does this make the BA vindicator the only fast vehicle to mount an ordnance weapon? I'm still prefering predators more as a fast vehicle but yes they are better than I was thinking.

It appears i'm also wrong about the fast vehicles allowing embarked troops to fire even at cruise speed, doesn't give the exception.

whocares wrote:It's not about being remarkable. How often is a tactical squad remarkable? I suppose the answer to that question would depend on how you define the word, but you get my point.

Oh, it's not? And here I thought that one SM basic troop unit being "hands down better in every way" than another similarly-pointed SM basic troop unit was pretty damn remarkable.

So, 10-15 points for six more inches of movement, an extra assault weapon, and close combat weapons? Yeah, I'll make that trade any day of the week. As already stated, tactical marines only get seven more bolter shots than the assault squad, and the assault squad gets seven more close combat attacks, which it makes twice per turn once in combat. And combat tactics is really nice, but also really situational. I love when my opponents opt to run, roll too low, and I end up following them off the board with a spare attack bike or empty rhino.

And all the units you listed (with the exception of CSM) are way more expensive than a BA assault squad. And they would wipe out a tac squad just as easily, so it's a moot point. And I'm not really seeing how a generic CSM squad is inherently better than a BA assault squad, unless it has been upgraded sufficiently that it is also far more expensive. And again, then it would kill a tac squad just as well.

Good point about the rhinos. I always forget that damn rule. One of those things like trying to shoot a template weapon out of a fire point.

Yes, combat tactics is situational and can backfire. So is the extra movement of the rhino, as you can't do a drive-by if you're moving flat out, and often moving that far ahead can leave you exposed to enemy attacks unless you're planning just soaking hits for a turn and counter-attacking on yours. So again, the point is moot. You pay 10-15 extra points for an extra assault weapon vs. a heavy, trade combat tactics for fast on the rhino, and trade boltguns for a close combat weapon. I think we can agree that both units are viable in their own way, with neither outcassing the other.

As for all the units I listed, only the cult troops are more expensive (but they are also significantly better, so once you add a Sanguinary Priest to the assault squad, the points even out here too). For GH and CSM, compare them to the assault squad with 2 meltas, power fist, and rhino (i.e. 250 points).

10 Grey Hunters - 2 meltas, power fist, rhino, mark of the wulfen, wolf standard = 240 points. I actually don't bother with the power fist, and give them two plasma guns, which makes them an amazing tactical unit for only 220 points.
10 Chaos Marines - 2 meltas, power fist, rhino = 245 points. Without a Sanguinary Priest, the CSM squad is "inherently better" because it has BOTH boltguns AND close combat weapons. It's a small distinction, but it does make them better at holding objectives. If you add the Mark of Khorne, they also become significantly better in close combat while only being 25 points more than the assault squad.

imweasel wrote:BA has better scoring units than marines.

You don't take 10 man BA assault squads, you take 5 man, sell the jump packs and buy your razorback on the cheap.

A 5 man BA assault squad w/flamer in a las/plas razorback is 160pts. And it's fast. Marines cannot get a unit like this at all and to just get one close costs 165.

It's a very effective unit. A couple of these, a fun bus (DC + LRC) along with some support in the form of baal preds, vindi's and a dread or two makes a nice 2k list.

Not to much cheddar in that one either.

A couple of these units are great for adding some cheap scoring units for your home objective and some long-range AT fire. However, the problem with these 5-man squads is that they are very poor at taking objectives (5 marines are VERY easy to kill once they stick their head out of their vehicle, cover save or not). I've faced the razorback spam with 5-man scoring squads before (backed up with 3 baals and 3 vindicators) several times, and this type of list just doesn't stand up to anything with good long-range AT. My IG lists have all the transports in smoking ruins no later than turn 3, and those 5-man squads have no chance of surviving demo charges, or volleys from executioners or manticores. Hell, I've even killed a couple of these units just rapid-firing with guardsmen lasguns. Inflicting 15 (if AP4+) wounds against a T4 unit is not difficult.

ceorron wrote:

Terminus wrote:
Also, no you CANNOT shoot out of it when it moves 12". The rulebook is VERY CLEAR about this, units may not shoot out of vehicles that move at cruising speed, regardless of how uber its engines are.

I thought it was flat out vehicle that the embarked unit couldn't shoot from with weapons.

Fast vindicators nothing special, you can only fire ordanace moving at combat speed. If you plan to move it flat out towards the enemy and not shoot you will only be moving to closer to its death.

If it is fast vehicles we are talking about how about combat speed on any of the preditor varieties (including baal). That is what freaks me about the dex.

Stormraven on the other hand thats got something for definite aswell (shudders).

At cruising speed you cannot shoot. At flat out speed you can't shoot, embark or disembark.

Can you cite a page number or PDF for the rule on ordnance weapons? Because if so, that completely wrecks the Blood Angels vindicator. If it can't fire after moving 12", then fast is pretty useless for it, especially at a 30-point premium.

The predators are indeed the gems of the book. 135 points for a mobile autocannon and two lascannons with FAV13 is a great deal (I laugh at the folks that field annihilators). The 145-point dakka-Baal doesn't worry me so much when deployed in a defensive position. S5/6 shots from the front (even rending ones) don't pose a huge threat to scaled chimeras or merged infantry squads, but they do worry rhino-based strategies. The bare-bones outflanking Baal is scary as hell. That flamestorm cannon makes a mess of absolutely everything I field, be it GK, Sororitas, guard squads in cover, or support tanks (yesterday I lost a hydra squadron to one flamestorm shot). It does expose its sides more often, but melee isn't much of a threat at cruising speed.

When will BA ever take fearless wounds from an ork boyz squad?

When the Blood Angels lose a combat and get caught, or lose a combat while the Red Thirst is in action and automatically cause No Retreat.

Nurglitch wrote:When the Blood Angels lose a combat and get caught, or lose a combat while the Red Thirst is in action and automatically cause No Retreat.

Or if they loose combat, fail LD check, and loose the sweeping advance. Then ATSKNF kicks in and they take wounds as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Terminus wrote:
At cruising speed you cannot shoot. At flat out speed you can't shoot, embark or disembark.

Can you cite a page number or PDF for the rule on ordnance weapons? Because if so, that completely wrecks the Blood Angels vindicator. If it can't fire after moving 12", then fast is pretty useless for it, especially at a 30-point premium.

The predators are indeed the gems of the book. 135 points for a mobile autocannon and two lascannons with FAV13 is a great deal (I laugh at the folks that field annihilators). The 145-point dakka-Baal doesn't worry me so much when deployed in a defensive position. S5/6 shots from the front (even rending ones) don't pose a huge threat to scaled chimeras or merged infantry squads, but they do worry rhino-based strategies. The bare-bones outflanking Baal is scary as hell. That flamestorm cannon makes a mess of absolutely everything I field, be it GK, Sororitas, guard squads in cover, or support tanks (yesterday I lost a hydra squadron to one flamestorm shot). It does expose its sides more often, but melee isn't much of a threat at cruising speed.

Fast vehicles shoot as if they were moving one speed lower than they are. Combat = Stationary, Crusing = Combat speed, etc. Since a vindicator is not an Ordnance Barrage they can shoot while moving at Combat Speed, and since the BA Vindicator is fast, it can fire at cruising speed because it treats firing speed as one step lower, in this case it would be combat speed.

Actually, a fast vehicle can even fire an ordnance barrage weapon while moving at combat speed, as the fast vehicle rules specifically mention this perk.

Terminus wrote:

whocares wrote:It's not about being remarkable. How often is a tactical squad remarkable? I suppose the answer to that question would depend on how you define the word, but you get my point.

Oh, it's not? And here I thought that one SM basic troop unit being "hands down better in every way" than another similarly-pointed SM basic troop unit was pretty damn remarkable.

Not really.

Nine oblits with duel lash is remarkable.

Vendetta spam is remarkable.

Tactical squads being replaced is annoying, and typical GW.

Terminus wrote:10 Grey Hunters - 2 meltas, power fist, rhino, mark of the wulfen, wolf standard = 240 points. I actually don't bother with the power fist, and give them two plasma guns, which makes them an amazing tactical unit for only 220 points.
10 Chaos Marines - 2 meltas, power fist, rhino = 245 points. Without a Sanguinary Priest, the CSM squad is "inherently better" because it has BOTH boltguns AND close combat weapons. It's a small distinction, but it does make them better at holding objectives. If you add the Mark of Khorne, they also become significantly better in close combat while only being 25 points more than the assault squad.

So for the same points I can either have bolters or fast rhinos? Yeah, I'll take the rhinos.

And for some reason I was reading GH as GK, so I thought you were talking about grey knights...which would be significantly more expensive.

And grey hunters are pretty good as well. Another reason the tactical squad is going the way of the dinosaur.

Time to whip out the all bike army, or ditch vanilla marines.

Terminus wrote:But BA tactical squads sucking doesn't make vanilla Space Marine tactical squads bad; they are cheaper and more flexible. Really, providing a distinct yet balanced play-style is one of the things this codex does well, in my opinion (it's mostly fluff and sense of decency where it fails ).

Yeah, very much that. There's not much wrong with the codex in terms of power, it's just that a range of options strike me as pretty silly.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@OP: Not even *close* to "too far".

Right now, the answer to a chicken little cry is: lern 2 play.

It's more like
Thread: lern to read.

The power balance and imbalance of the BA codex has been done to death, so why have people have come into a thread to have that argument all over again, when the OP was specifically talking about the codex in terms of silliness?

Because looking at the last couple of codices there seems to be a move back to second ed style craziness, even more so given the greater range of models out now (2nd ed got crazy but no-one ever rode a wolf into battle). I really like the SM, IG and Orks codices, and think that's just about where things should settle. The Tyranid codex wandered a little the wrong way, but really the SW and BA codices are pushing the point where I could look at an opposing army and tell a guy 'no, I'm sorry, that's just too silly and won't be any fun to play against.'

It's not there yet, but if current trends continue it will get there shortly.

So now that the new codex is good, I can win some games. 3rd edition codex was fair, the 4th/5th edition pdf codex was terrible. Having played with over prized units for many years, I think most BA players deserve a treat.

sebster wrote:The Tyranid codex wandered a little the wrong way, but really the SW and BA codices are pushing the point where I could look at an opposing army and tell a guy 'no, I'm sorry, that's just too silly and won't be any fun to play against.'

It's not there yet, but if current trends continue it will get there shortly.

Wow.

"I can deal with giant bugs and violent fungus fighting colorfully armored, genetically engineered warrior monks in SPEHSS! But riding wolves? This is officially beyond the scope of my suspension of disbelief."

Monster Rain wrote:Wow.

"I can deal with giant bugs and violent fungus fighting colorfully armored, genetically engineered warrior monks in SPEHSS! But riding wolves? This is officially beyond the scope of my suspension of disbelief."

I don't think it's helped by people mounting Marines on Wargs - it's hard to take a player seriously when their Space Marines look like they've had an accident with a ferret