Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Airmaniac wrote:Furious Charge also increases the model's Strength value. Since the 'Strength must be unaugmented' part of the Living Metal rule only goes for weapon Strength values, and NOT for model Strength values, Nobs with a Power Klaw count as S9 on the charge against a Monolith.

Yes furious charge being a modifier causes the users strength in close combat which is double their profiles strength, to be modfied by a +1 - this modification is dissallowed by the monolith.


@Kevin: So your saying rolling two die is the same as rolling one? I don't think you are and that's the point I'm making - rolling two die is not the same as rolling one, for starters you need two die interecting with each other in your palm/cup/thrower, not just a lonely die. That second lower valued die that you pay no reguard has had a profound effect on the value on the die you selected.

Noisy_Marine wrote:I've never seen anyone argue that you don't get Furious Charge, Tank Hunter, or even any bonus from a power fist vs. the Monolith. This is a case of ridiculous rules-lawyering.

EDIT:

It says right in the necron faq that powerfists/klaws double your strength vs. a monolith. For christs sake people...

And the previous GW FAQ specifically disallowed Tank Hunter, so you must not have been playing very long........................ Then they rewrote the Monolith entry and thought they didn't need to spell out that you don't get Tank Hunter, or the bonus for multiple Talos attacks or, wait for it, Furious Charge. Somehow GW thought that saying, hey, all you get is unagmented ST plus 1d6, no matter what, would be sufficient. Silly GW....................

Hmmmm, wow, ya know what, the Talos being included in that list kinda pokes a hole in the "It's the model's strength" argument, doesn't it.................? Given that GW specifically disallowed a strength modification?

Except that we know that it is indeed tha model's str now used in cc. At some day in the past the weapon str may have been used in days of yore, its possible that in some future edition of the rules weapon str will be used. But in the current rules, right now, its the model str that is used in cc. And living metal is only concerned with weapon str, it simply doesnt address anything that modifies the model's str.

So yes, furious chrage works fine against living metal, because furious charge is a bonus to the model.

But tank hunter attempts to add +1 to the ap roll, which living metal DOES address. So no, tank hunter doesnt work.


The rules change, the interaction with various codex rules changes...we have to live with how the rules work now however.

And if anyone still has any qualms about a model's str being modified in attacks against living metal, just read the faq. There were enough people asking about power fists that they addressed this; yes a model's str can be doubled against living metal. So yes, it is clear that a model's str can be modified since living metal doesnt address this.


Rules change. Many old models used to be equipped with two (or more) special close combat weapons. Those models cant use both special weapons in the current edition of the rules, in fact they cant even use the second weapon to get +1 attack. Living metal doesnt affect the model's own str or any adjustment to this str.

Maybe one day when 9th edition is released weapon str will be used and living metal will be all ready to go! (probably one month later the a necron codex will finally be released and remove living metal from the rules~)


Sliggoth

And what is your response to the Talos?

don_mondo wrote:And what is your response to the Talos?

It's not an issue as no-one uses it.

True, haven't seen one on the table since forever, it seems. But GW telling us that the boost to it's strength (ie augmentation of users strngth) for multiple hits (IIRC) is disallowed is an indication that Furious Charge doesn't work either.

ChrisCP wrote:
@Kevin: So your saying rolling two die is the same as rolling one? I don't think you are and that's the point I'm making - rolling two die is not the same as rolling one, for starters you need two die interecting with each other in your palm/cup/thrower, not just a lonely die. That second lower valued die that you pay no reguard has had a profound effect on the value on the die you selected.

*Sigh* No, I'm not saying that rolling two dice is the same as rolling one. But I've spelled it out multiple times, I guess I just see it differently from you and it makes sense to me. *Shrug*

I can see liiving armour moving around to better protect against an ordinance weapon, that makes sence to me. So I would give that one to the lith. I can also see it bypassing the tankbusta's rule by doing the same. But I cant se how it compensates for the Nob's muscles bulging out.

Just my 2.

Ork Cyborg wrote:I can see liiving armour moving around to better protect against an ordinance weapon, that makes sence to me. So I would give that one to the lith. I can also see it bypassing the tankbusta's rule by doing the same. But I cant se how it compensates for the Nob's muscles bulging out.

Just my 2.

Quite easily. It's a game mechanic................. Doesn't need to be a 'fluff' reason.

But its clarified in an FAQ. Not sure why there is still debate about the power * doubling strength.

Kevin949 wrote:But its clarified in an FAQ. Not sure why there is still debate about the power * doubling strength.

Ummm, might want to read the whole thread. The PF/PK 2xST is not under discussion, I think we all agree to that. The current discussion is whether or not they also get +1 due to Furious Charge. Or +1 for Tank Hunter. Or bonuses for a Talos. Or etc etc etc...............

I've read the whole thread, and honestly it doesn't seem like anything has been resolved, everyone is just focusing on FC and TH currently. Which currently my stance is that FC would work and TH would not.

I know I'm late to the party, but Don Mondo is incorrect. It is 9+D6 if you play by the rules. If you want to house rule it to not work that way, fine.

Weapon Augmentation:

Melta (S+ 2d6 for armor pen)
Ordnance (S+2d6 choose highest for armor pen)
Stuff like the LR that rolls 2d6 + S for armor pen


Not weapon augmentation, model str augmentation:

DCCW
Power Klaw/Power Fist
Furious charge

These augment the strength of the MODEL, having NOTHING to do with the weapon.

Guess Im just not looking in the right places, where do they list the interaction for the talos?


Sliggoth

If i had to try to judge whether the model got +1 from furious charge i would say yes.

Why?

I think of it this way. I'm playing baseball, im not allowed to bring a bat that can hit the ball further than another bat, so we rule out an aluminum bat. (like the monolith rules out melta)

However, i am allowed to swing the bat harder than the next guy, by being stronger, quicker what have you. So lets say im pissed off at the pitcher and take a real good cut at the ball. (+1 S)

Am i breaking the rule about not being aloud to have a bat that hits harder? no. Am i altering myself to hit it further, yes. therefore allowed.

At least thats how i read the rule.

edited because my space bar doesnt like to work

You can't use real-life examples for any of this because none of it has anything to do with real life. You can only go by the rulebook, codex, and applicable FAQs.

I don't really see how you can say Furious Charge isn't a bonus to strength.

So let me get this clear; you think that I don't get +1 strength for furious charge but I get double strength on a power fist because that was FAQ.

I guess asking for unambiguous rules in the books is too much to ask.

Yes, FAQ says certain things are exceptions. If it were to list FC, you'd get that too.

RobPro wrote:Yes, FAQ says certain things are exceptions. If it were to list FC, you'd get that too.

its probably not listed because gw assumes the people who play have some common sense. the monolith says the weapons strength cant be modified what weapons have a str value? bolters,pistols,plasma guns/cannons etc etc. close combat weapons lightning claws pf/pc dont. they either modifer the models str or allow the model to bypass armor.
ect
furious charge gives the model +1str a powerfist doubles a models str

If that is how you want to interpret the rules, then that's your choice. It just means those -models- swing at the Monolith with 0 + d6.

RobPro wrote:If that is how you want to interpret the rules, then that's your choice. It just means those -models- swing at the Monolith with 0 + d6.

Sure, weapon str 0 + model str 4(x2 for PF/PK) + 1 model str for FC + d6. There, weapon str 0 and it is unmodified.

Now you're just making stuff up.

I wil say it again: what WEAPONS modify their strength?

Melta weapons dont - they add dice for armour penetration, which is NOT changing their Strength.

You could argue that a linked Fireprism would be a modification, possibly?

Vibrocannons hitting from a batch?

So maybe when they meant "weapon" they really did mean weapons, and altering the strength of the pwoerfist from double S to double S+1 is an augmentation...

RobPro wrote:Now you're just making stuff up.

What part of that is actually made up? And please, tell me how a unit would not be able to use their strength stat when swinging a weapon.

Except that furious charge does NOT affect/ augment/ add to weapon strength. Furious charge adds +1 to a model's initiative and +1 to a model's strength characteristic. Please note that it does absolutely nothing to any weapon....

So yes, furious charge works fine since living metal is only concerned with a weapon's strength. Living metal doesnt mention a model's strength, so that means that under current rules living metal is going to be interacting only with shooting attacks. Now, if at some point in the future the rules change and weapon strengths are involved in cc then the living metal rule will then interact with cc.

But as it stands, furious charge isnt affected by living metal.


Sliggoth

Relic Blades and Frost Blades come to mind as CC weapons that modify strength, and they have already been mentioned in this thread.

The Living Metal entry states weapon's unmodified strength plus d6 "no matter what." If your model is attacking the Monolith and not using a weapon, it would get 0+d6 as it is apparently not using a weapon and "no matter what" that is all that affects a Monolith. This is how -you- are interpreting that rule, most people would logically conclude S8 + d6.

@RobPro Yes, frost blades modify the model's strength....and that is fine. Please reread the living metal rule. Living metal doesnt deal AT ALL with anything that modifies a model's strength. The pen roll, yes living metal talks about that. Weapons that treat av as lower than it really is, yes living metal talks about that. About restricting modifiers to the model's strength? No, living metal doesnt consider that.

Now if the rules for cc ever get changed so that weapon strengths are used in cc, then yes living metal would affect cc. As it stands now, cc only uses the model's strength. And the rules specifically tell us to use the strength of the model regardless of the strength of the weapon that is being used. Weapons can modify many things about cc, the number of attacks, the model's strength, affect the saves, confer rending (which does concern living metal since rending affects the pen roll) etc.

But we do not use the weapon's own strength in thos few cases that a weapon even has a strength.


And no, a model with no weapons doesnt use 0. We use the model's strength characteristic. Or else the deceiver would be pretty silly in cc since we are told that he has no weapons at all..........



Sliggoth

Same with the nightbringer, it states his scythe is "just for show" or whatever but has no bearing on CC.

But, also in the Monolith's entry, we see that -only- weapons are allowed to hurt the Monolith. The all-inclusive "no matter what" means that unless a model is making an attack with a weapon, it will roll 0 + d6.