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kill dem stunties wrote:yes, and when you looka t how you conduct an attack against a vehicle in close combat, it specifically says to use the strength of the "ATTACKER" the models strength is not inherently his weapons, especially as ccws dont have str values.

kill dem stunties wrote:No, as when rolling for armor penetration in close combat against a vehicle, you're told to roll with the models strength, it never states weapon a single time in the armor penetration rolls in close combat section under assaulting vehicles heading..

And those general rules are superceded by the Monolith special Living Metal rules which say to use the strength of the weapon................

no, it says the str of the weapopn can never be augmented, which in effect means against ccws it doesnt do very much at all, against shooting weapons with an actual statline thathave a defined str value however, you will get no bonuses of any kind.

What shooting weapons ever have an "augmented strength"?

Close combat weapons *must* be used in close combat.

I was actually just about to ask that, what ranged attacks ever get augmented strength?

Honestly, I have to agree with a buddy of mine in that this is a just a clear cut case of 4th and 5th clashing in the worst way.

Actually 3rd ed - Living metal is *old*

All cc attacks use the str of the attacker. In a cc attack, the str of the weapon (if any) is entirely irrelevant to the str of the model.

A model armed with a bolter and a model armed with a melta gun both attack at the str of the models, not the weapons.

So yes, it is quite important what the str of the model may be, and no it doesnt matter if the weapon (if any) has any str at all. So the fact that a power fist/ klaw doubles the str of the model is quite important, because it is the str of the MODEL that we are concerned with here. The living metal rule is concerned with str of weapons, not models.

So a power fist or any other rule that adds to the str of a model is not affected by the living metal rule.

Any rule that adds to the str of a weapon, or adds to armor penetration IS affected of course, but living metal doesnt care about anything that affects a model's str.....


Sliggoth

nosferatu: I think maybe Rending weapons like Assault Cannons is what they were trying to referring to (yes, not strength, but more damage which kind of comes out to the same thing).

Well, not really - plus it falls foul of the "never more than S+D6" clause...

Out of curiosity Nos, would you count an orks big choppa for the str of an attack made against a monolith? Or any other CC weapon which would modify the users str in CC?

2. you are correct. it is a special ccw with no str value, that merely doubles its users strength by being equipped, and acts as a power weapon in close combat.

This is were the argument breaks down. Sorry for coming in late but you don't get 2xs for being equiped with a powerfist. For instance a striking scorpion Exarch with scorpions claw and scorpion chainsword doesn't have S7, he can choose S4 or S6. The reason being you only get the bonus for attacking with that weapon, i.e. you strike at Sx2 for hiting with a powerfist, or that the strength of the powerfist weapon is 2xS.

If you claim that you strike with the models S then which can be "augmented all you want" then you are striking at S5 (models S augmented by the FC bonus), not S9 as again that mean you are using the weilders strength not the weapons strength and as pointed out if you are using the weapons strength you can augment it.

TBH i was kinda surprised to see this entire discussion come up and have enjoyed reading the comments, however I decide to chip in

Decided to have a look through verious rules sections of the rules book blah blah blah and then decided to take a gander at the codex, joys of living with an ex staffer have the 'dex for most armies, anyway i digress(sp?)...

Now the version I am looking at says the following:

Necron 'dex pg 21

Living Metal: The monolith is made of living necron metal which is not only self-repairing but is capable of adapting its structure to resist incoming attacks. Attacks which count the target's armour value as being less then it really is (such as bright lances and blasters) do not do so against the monolith. Similarly, weapons that get additional armour penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the monolith. Ordance weapons still roll 2D6 for armour penetration and select the highest score.

Anyone notice the complete lack of reference to the words "augmented strength"...

Is it possible that there was more then one stealth print of this book? The ISBN for this book is 1-84151-190-7 with a publish date of 01/01/02 can be checked here (if you dont trust links of forums google bookfinder4u)

Anyway enjoy and good luck deciding on a resolution for this one

Yes, you have the older version.

the one with the added line "in practice...." has a similar ISBN - instead it is 84154

ah right oh, at this point i shall STFU

It's amazing that this is still a topic of debate given the fact that Monoliths and the Living Metal rule have been around for almost a decade now.

I'm not even going to back up my statement with any sort of research because it's all been clearly pointed out. Some people refuse to accept it though. An Ork with a Power Claw and Furious Charge assaulting a Monolith is S9.

@nos, an example of augmented strength for a shooting weapon would be a meltagun at half range, which is augmenting the end strength of the meltaguns penetration.


Next.

pg 42 brb, heading : pwoer fists
"a power fist (or power "klaw")is an armored gauntlet surrounded by a disruptive energy field. A power fist is a power weapon, and also doubles the users strength (up to a maximum of 10) Powerfists however, are difficult and cumbersome to use, so attacks with a powerfist are always delivered at Init 1..."


That says a powerfist doubles your strength if equipped, not if swinging with it.

The strength of the Power Klaw is based on the strength of the model. How can furious charge not be augmenting it?

And GWAR, that's what I tell people about meltabombs if they try to claim it's still 8+2d6.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except it does when you are told how to resolve close combat attacks to begin with. You are told you MUST use your special close combat weapon if you have one. So you are using a weapon that you have agreed has no strength.

OR, you agree that the attacker is taking the place of the "weapon" in Living Metal, but this means FC does not work as you are augmenting the stgrength of the weapon.

Nos, I hope you realize that the argument you are making logically leads to the conclusion that NO close-combat attacks EVER get a strength value against Monoliths, unless the attacker has no CCW whatsoever? Because if they have a CCW, they have to use it, and since it's a CCW it has no strength. . .

The problem with you argument is that you are becoming confused about how one "uses" a CCW.

When you "use" a CCW, you DO NOT EVER reference the Strength of the CCW. Instead, you reference the CCW rules, which tell you to use THE USER'S Strength, with any modifications the weapon may grant.

As a result, the argument "the weapon has no strength therefore it gets 0+d6" is flawed in a second way; The Living Metal rules only applies to attacks BY WEAPONS, and close-combat attacks are made by MODELS, with the weapons merely modifying the effects of their (own, inherent) attacks. Therefore, Living Metal, by the strictest interpretation, has no effect in close-combat whatsoever.

I suspect that if the models benefit in any way from the weapons, they are attacking with their weapons in CC.

RobPro wrote:I suspect that if the models benefit in any way from the weapons, they are attacking with their weapons in CC.

Certainly. But "attacking with their weapons" does not equate to "using the weapon's Strength value", which is what is necessary for Living Metal to activate.

Now, when using grenades or meltabombs, Living Metal DOES activate, because those weapons use their own, separate Strength value.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

RobPro wrote:I suspect that if the models benefit in any way from the weapons, they are attacking with their weapons in CC.

Certainly. But "attacking with their weapons" does not equate to "using the weapon's Strength value", which is what is necessary for Living Metal to activate.

Now, when using grenades or meltabombs, Living Metal DOES activate, because those weapons use their own, separate Strength value.

Wrong. Grenades do not have any strength value. They simply have an armour penetration value of a number + a certain amount of dice.

Gwar! wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

RobPro wrote:I suspect that if the models benefit in any way from the weapons, they are attacking with their weapons in CC.

Certainly. But "attacking with their weapons" does not equate to "using the weapon's Strength value", which is what is necessary for Living Metal to activate.

Now, when using grenades or meltabombs, Living Metal DOES activate, because those weapons use their own, separate Strength value.

Wrong. Grenades do not have any strength value. They simply have an armour penetration value of a number + a certain amount of dice.

Granted. In that case, the 0+1d6 argument makes sense for grenades, since you're supposed to treat nonexistent stats as 0.

Nos' ability to troll this entire forum is astounding, he must be some kind of geni-CREEEEEEEEEEEEEED!

Ok, seriously. A monolith only negates meltas, lances and stuff. It doesn't affect powerfists or furious charge. GW has it FAQed that PFs get their double strength. FC just happens to the unit itself as a result of charging.

The part about CCWs having no strength and not doing anything is debatable, but that is the direction most sides of the argument seems to be heading. I agree with Nos that Furious Charge, Tank Hunter, etc. do not work against the Monolith. None of his earlier arguments have been offered any real counterargument, and I believe what he posted in the first 2 pages is pretty much correct.

The FAQ has nothing to do with Furious Charge, it only states that powerfists/klaws work against a Monolith.

kill dem stunties wrote:@nos, an example of augmented strength for a shooting weapon would be a meltagun at half range, which is augmenting the end strength of the meltaguns penetration.

Wrong, they get an extra D6 for penetration, this is NOTHING like altering the strength of the weapon - the armour penetration roll is S+2D6.

kill dem stunties wrote:Next.

pg 42 brb, heading : pwoer fists
"a power fist (or power "klaw")is an armored gauntlet surrounded by a disruptive energy field. A power fist is a power weapon, and also doubles the users strength (up to a maximum of 10) Powerfists however, are difficult and cumbersome to use, so attacks with a powerfist are always delivered at Init 1..."


That says a powerfist doubles your strength if equipped, not if swinging with it.

So if i have a powerfist and a lightning claw, I can reroll wounds with a pwoer weapon at normal Initiative AND at double strength?

No, you must USE the weapon as the rules for CCW tell you. Simoplky having it is not enough.

Surtur - id suggest avoiding the "troll" name calling.

Ok, post the Living Metal rule exactly as it is read in the codex. Get back down to the basics and work up from there.

Surtur wrote:Ok, post the Living Metal rule exactly as it is read in the codex. Get back down to the basics and work up from there.

The problem is, there are 2 versions, one from the original, and one from a stealth 2nd printing.

Surtur - it has been 90% posted, only avoiding the "in practice...." line which deals with unaugmented strength of the weapon.

And in close combat you make ALL attacks with a weapon, oddly enough called a close combat weapon.

OK

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what. "

FAQ:
Q. Does a model with a powerfist/claw that attacks a Monolith get to double its Strength for armour penetration rolls?
A. Yes, powerfists/claws, thunder hammers, and so on still double their user’s Strength when attacking a Monolith.

So, is a powerfist (or any ccw-Close Combat Weapon) a weapon? Well, their rules are on page 42, which is titled. wait for it, Close Combat Weapons. Power fists/klaws are in the section labelled SPECIAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS. So far so good, sure looks like they are a weapon to me. In fact, any time you attack in hth you are using a weapon, even if it's just your rifle butt.

Weapon Strength, true, PF/PK do not have set strength. They double the user's strength, but as has been pointed out, you have to be attacking with what? Oh yeah, the weapon, to get that. So in effect, the weapon strength is indeed 2xusers strength. Cause just try to get the doubled strength without using the PF.......................

Bottom line, unaugmented strength of the weapon + 1d6, no matter what. PF/PK strength is 2 x users strength, +1 for FC is an augmentation to that strength value.

The unaugmented str of the weapon, eh? A model uses the str of the weapon and not their own str??

So you are suggesting that when my eldar attack in cc while armed with shuriken pistols they attack at str4? Or when armed with fusion pistols they attack at str 8? WOW!

And a BA in cc using a hand flamer attacks at str3...who knew?



Except thats not how cc works.

A model attacks with their own str, no matter what weapons they are equipped with. Yes, weapons can change that str, it is still the MODEL'S str, not the weapon's. Otherwise it would always be the weapon that we would look at, and we would ignore the part of the statline where the model str is listed. The rules tell us however that any str associated with the weapon is ignored, and we use the str of the model itself. We use the attacker's str characteristic...not the weapon's str.

Plus, remember that a MC with no cc weapons can still attack in cc, or at least thats the way that they certainly have been played for years. (at last ever since they stripped the dreadnought cc weapons from the wraithlord)


And please note that furious charge changes the model's str characteristic. There is no mention of adding anything to the weapon, because thats not how cc works. So living metal ignores furious charge, there is nothing about furious charge that affects any weapon str and furious charge doesnt add to the armor pen roll either.


The living metal rule works fine on the str of weapon attacks, its just that in cc the weapon strength doesnt matter. Now tank hunter doesnt work because it crosses another line with its adding +1 to the pen roll. But any rule that adds to a model's str is fine.


The living metal rule allows the formula: str + d6. Str = model str....and how we arrive at the model's str the living metal rule has no concern at all. If there are 5 diff rules that all add +1 each to the model, living metal is fine with all of that. Simply because we dont use the weapon str, we use the model's str.



Sliggoth

And yet while in combat you attack usnig the weapon.

Fusions are not CCW so cannot be used, oddly enough, ic CCW. Invalid example - i know you were being facetious, but at least get it even vaguely correct.

Relic Blades are strength 6 always, and does not alter the models Strength characteristic. Your statement is proven false.