Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sliggoth wrote:The unaugmented str of the weapon, eh? A model uses the str of the weapon and not their own str??

So you are suggesting that when my eldar attack in cc while armed with shuriken pistols they attack at str4? Or when armed with fusion pistols they attack at str 8? WOW!

And a BA in cc using a hand flamer attacks at str3...who knew?

Used to. Course, now the rules on page 42 tell us that those pistols are treated as standard ccw, using the wielders strength. And yes, it's the users strength, applied through whatever weapon they are wielding, even if that 'weapon' is their fist. Page 42 lays it all out for you, read it.

This is the point the two sides just are not going to agree on, I think.

And....pistols are indeed ccw, so a fusion pistol (such as harlies use) are indeed ccws......oddly enough. So oddly enough, the example isnt just vaguely correct but is perfectly correct.

And Im afraid that your example of a relic blade doesnt say that the blade itself is str 6, it says that a "relic blade counts as a power weapon whose hits are resolved at Strength 6." Which is very fortunate for a SM with a relic blade, because if it DID say that the strength of the weapon itself was 6, then we would have the interesting problem of a marine armed with a str 6 weapon who the rules tell us has to use his own str to resolve his hits.

The blade isnt str 6, we are instead told that hits when using a relic blade are at str 6.

Which is the key, since hits are normally based upon the model's str characteristic and not anything else. Of course, the relic blade rules being more specific than the general cc rules, we replace the general rules with the specific.


If models always were required to use weapon, then wraithlords wouldnt be able to attack at all in cc since they dont seem to have ccw under this interpretation. Would also be a problem for a few other models, including from the necron codex the deceiver. We are specifically told that the deceiver has NO weapons, yet still has 4 attacks in cc.

Weapons are nice. They may give a variety of bonuses to models who use them. But we most certainly arent concerned about what str a weapon has for cc purposes, if any.


Sliggoth

And the only way to get those "hits" is to be using a "weapon", per page 42. And in close combat the weapon has either the users strength or the strength gained by it's special rules.

Sigh....... And round and round we go.

So you ignored the rules on CCW which state that pistols use the strength of the wielder when sed as normal CCW in close combat?

Interesting.

Oh, and you missed that "whose hits" refers to the Relic Blade? Meaning the relic blade hits at S6.

We were also talking about Special CCW - where you are specifically required to use any Special CCW when making attacks. Just to you know, keep iton topic...

Thnks for pointing out that the rules do tell us to use the str of the user....which was the point of my tongue in cheek post about the str of the various cc weapons.

The rules on pg 42 do indeed tell us to ignore the str of pistols and use the str of the user. Perhaps this rule was put in there since the rest of the weapons do not actually HAVE a str? Which is what I have been trying to explain here.

The rules tell us to use the str of the model. That str can indeed be modified in various ways. And yes, many (but no means all) models do use weapons. But those weapons do not themselves have a str.

Even the relic blade that was brought up as an example doesnt have a str, it instead tells us how to resolve hits inflicted while using the relic blade. Does the blade boost the models str? We dont know-- and we dont care since there are special rules for that one item that are outside the normal cc rules.



It basically comes down to the simple fact that by RAW we use the model's str characteristic. We do NOT use the str of any weapon being used. In the one occasion that the RAW mentions a weapon's str (pistols) we are firmly told to NOT use that str.

Btw, models do not have to have weapons to engage in cc. So yes some models may be using weapons, but it is not a requirement to engage in cc. There is nothing in the rules suggesting that a weapon takes on the str of its user, because the rules simply dont use any str a weapon might have.


Sliggoth

...and back round we go.

The Relic blade does have a strength, otherwise what is "whose hits..." aimed at? Something mythical?

The end result to me, is that if you look at the page that tells you exactly what to do when you are rolling to penetrate a vehicle in close combat.

It specifically states to use the models strength, it doesn't matter if you're "using" a weapon, that's great, you're using that weapon until you get to the point where you look what to do and it says to use the strength of the attacker + 1d6.

It says to use models strength, use a special ccw all you want when it comes time to roll for pen you have to use str of the model +d6.

And i'm done with this thread now, reiterated the same point about 10 times now, you don't want to see seemingly to me anyways, plain as day raw that's ok whatever. If i could find a picture of someone arguing with a brick wall i would.

Will someone please post the full entry, not just the tidbit that's being argued over? As is, it is being interpreted 2 ways.

unaugmented (strength and a single D6)

or

(unaugmented strength) and a single D6

Neither of those is the contention - you are not allowed extra penetration dice or other bonuses to it such as Tank Hunter.

the contention comes frmo the fact that you MUST use any special CCW when fighting, and it is the strength of the weapon that cant be altered.

OK, lets go back to basics here, what do we actually do in a cc?

According to the rules:

Pg 38 "once you have scored a hit with an attack you must roll again to see if you score a wound"

"cross reference the attacker's Strength characteristic (S) with the defenders Toughness"

"In most cases, you use the Strength on the attacker's profile regardless of what weapon they are using."


Then to reinforce that idea on pg 42 we find:

"in close combat , pistols count as normal close combat weapons and so the Strength and AP of the pistol are ignored."



Then for vehicles and assault on pg 63 we find:

"Armor Penetration is worked out in the same way as for shooting (D6 + the strength of the attacker)




So can we agree that it is the attacking model's strength that is being used here to determine the outcome of the cc? We are told specifically to ignore any strength on the one type of ccw that normally has a strength (pistols).




Sliggoth

OR, you agree that the attacker is taking the place of the "weapon" in Living Metal, but this means FC does not work as you are augmenting the strength of the weapon.

But when does the "unaugmented" part come into play? The +1 strength happens before the attacker even starts to swing. Going by that logic, your unaugmented strength would be 9 anyway, because it modified the model, and then, LATER, the weapon uses the strength of the model, which is now 9.

I always read that as some thing that raises the model's strength when fighting a vehicle or something like that then it simply doesn't apply. And again the whole "melta/rending" thing.

Look at this way, a close combat has no str, sure. If you pick up a sword in real life that sword will be more destructive in the hands of a stronger person, but the sword itself isn't any stronger. So a power sword increases the str of the wielder, which living metal will not stop, the only bonuses conferred from wielding a CCW is, for instance, the ability to ignore armor saves in CC. But the weapon itself has no str but that doesn't mean you roll 0+d6 because the guy swinging it still has a str attribute. And if a weapon makes the wielder stronger, it doesn't meant the weapon is only the guy swinging it is doing so with more force, which again living metal won't stop. And yes, this also means that furious charge would count.

Surtur wrote:Will someone please post the full entry, not just the tidbit that's being argued over? As is, it is being interpreted 2 ways.

I did, it's on page 3.................

That one sentence is the whole entry?

The monolith is made of living necron metal which is not only self-repairing but is capable of adapting its structure to resist incoming attacks. Attacks which count the targets armour value as being less than it really is (such as bright lances and blasters) do not do so against the monolith. Similarily, weaapons that get additional armour penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the monolith. Ordnance weapons still roll 2d6 for armour penetration and select the highest score. In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single d6 no matter what.

There you go, the whole living metal entry verbatim.

the rule specifically tells you what is not allowed ( Similarily, weaapons that get additional armour penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the monolith) furious charge tank hunters you would get since one is an addition to the model not the weapons str the other is a modification to the result after str and d6 has been calculated. so a melta gun in 6" of a monolith would get 8+d6 if the model had tankhunter or if this was a model with furious charge using a powerfist/powerklaw it would be 8+d6+1 the living metal rule imho only affects 'weapons' that have there own str i.e. grenades, ranged weapons, shooting psychic powers etc.

Kevin949 wrote: Ordnance weapons still roll 2d6 for armour penetration and select the highest score. In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single d6 no matter what.

There you go, the whole living metal entry verbatim.

Brilliant rules writing there, roll 2d6 rapidly followed by single d6 no matter what.

ChrisCP wrote:

Kevin949 wrote: Ordnance weapons still roll 2d6 for armour penetration and select the highest score. In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single d6 no matter what.

There you go, the whole living metal entry verbatim.

Brilliant rules writing there, roll 2d6 rapidly followed by single d6 no matter what.

Maybe you should read how ordinance works.

Kevin949 wrote:The monolith is made of living necron metal which is not only self-repairing but is capable of adapting its structure to resist incoming attacks. Attacks which count the targets armour value as being less than it really is (such as bright lances and blasters) do not do so against the monolith. Similarily, weaapons that get additional armour penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the monolith. Ordnance weapons still roll 2d6 for armour penetration and select the highest score. In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single d6 no matter what.

There you go, the whole living metal entry verbatim.

Thank you very much! Strength is not mentioned anywhere until the very last sentence. I see the last sentence as an attempt to clarify it's purpose as a just-in-case of future unseen rules happening. I don't think the rule is attempting to nullify strength bonuses, but things like meltas, lances and possibly tank hunter. Instead of focusing all of the attention at the last sentence I think you should look at the whole and attempt to understand the rule in it's entirety. No rule that I can think of is one sentence, most take 2-3 at least to explain themselves.

The last sentence is also what stops Tank Hunters - as you are getting more than S+D6

RobPro wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

Kevin949 wrote: Ordnance weapons still roll 2d6 for armour penetration and select the highest score. In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single d6 no matter what.

There you go, the whole living metal entry verbatim.

Brilliant rules writing there, roll 2d6 rapidly followed by single d6 no matter what.

Maybe you should read how ordinance works.

Siiiigh.... "any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single d6 no matter what."
Not matter what roll a single d6. No matter what including the previous scentence that lets us know that ordnance still roll two and pick.

Maybe just maybe GW should learn how to write rules that are, clear, concise, don't conflict with other rules, explain interactions with other rules in detail and naturally do not conflict with themself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Surtur wrote: No rule that I can think of is one sentence, most take 2-3 at least to explain themselves.

Any weapon attacking the monolith neither lowers it's AV or uses more than it's base strength value (no +/- modifiers) & one d6, in cases where one rolls two dice & selects the highest do this as normal.

I dunno I think I did a fairly good job there, anyone think of anything that'd need fixing?

Yes you are rolling 2d6 but you are not adding them, therefore it is still TECHNICALLY a single d6 hitting the lith, you just get to choose from 2 dice instead of 1.

Yeah but. Follow the rule as written and "roll for ap using... and a single d6 no matter what" it says roll with a single die no matter what - doesn't matter that it's "TECHNICALLY" a single die you've used two when you rolled, you haven't followed what the last scentence of Living Metals rule.

But I shouldn't be surprised that to play a 'smooth' game of war hammer it's expected that one will break rules.

I've never seen anyone argue that you don't get Furious Charge, Tank Hunter, or even any bonus from a power fist vs. the Monolith. This is a case of ridiculous rules-lawyering.

EDIT:

It says right in the necron faq that powerfists/klaws double your strength vs. a monolith. For christs sake people...

Kevin949 wrote:Yes you are rolling 2d6 but you are not adding them, therefore it is still TECHNICALLY a single d6 hitting the lith, you just get to choose from 2 dice instead of 1.

No, it's 2D6 Pick the Highest.

2D6 Pick the highest is not D6

Noisy_Marine wrote:I've never seen anyone argue that you don't get Furious Charge, Tank Hunter, or even any bonus from a power fist vs. the Monolith. This is a case of ridiculous rules-lawyering.

You do not recive the bonus from furious charge because it's an augmentation of the original str value.... seriously how hard is this?

Gwar! wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Yes you are rolling 2d6 but you are not adding them, therefore it is still TECHNICALLY a single d6 hitting the lith, you just get to choose from 2 dice instead of 1.

No, it's 2D6 Pick the Highest.

2D6 Pick the highest is not D6

I understand that gwar. What I'm saying is that even though one would roll two dice, it's not two dice affecting the monolith which is why living metal doesn't affect ordnance. You're simply getting more chances in one hit, not a higher penetration beyond the maximum of 6. So even though it's two dice, there is only one die affecting the outcome.

Plus I don't see how what you said is different than what I said except for me leaving out the "pick the highest" statement as that is assumed when rolling two dice and picking one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:I've never seen anyone argue that you don't get Furious Charge, Tank Hunter, or even any bonus from a power fist vs. the Monolith. This is a case of ridiculous rules-lawyering.

You do not recive the bonus from furious charge because it's an augmentation of the original str value.... seriously how hard is this?

obviously pretty hard since people still don't get that the bonus is applied to the models strength (I.E. those bulging things in his arms) and not the sword/fist/claw it is wielding. The model is simply swinging with more force on that first hit but the sword/weapon itself is not any stronger, the model is swinging it harder.

He singled it out because the rule says roll "a single d6" Living metal doesn't actually care if you only pick one the fact that two are used is bad. Also how could you possibly claim that only one die affects the outcome if you're rolling two? This is quite a different activity to rolling one die.

ChrisCP wrote:"roll for ap using... and a single d6 no matter what"

All that matters is your rolling two die, which you're not allow to do no matter what.

nosferatu1001 wrote:...and the strength has still be augmented by Furious Charge.

That is the "unaugmented strength" part. Unless you claim the weapon has no strength, in which case it doesnt work.

This is, in fact, the case. A Power Fist or Power Klaw has no Strength. It simply doubles the user's Strength value. Furious Charge also increases the model's Strength value. Since the 'Strength must be unaugmented' part of the Living Metal rule only goes for weapon Strength values, and NOT for model Strength values, Nobs with a Power Klaw count as S9 on the charge against a Monolith.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:And as you point out - the WEAPON HAS NO STRENGTH.

Which means you get 0+D6 against monoliths.

Or, you realise that the user is still hitting and as such their unaugmented powerfist strength is 2S, and that therefore 2S+1 has been augmented.

In close combat, model's strike with their own Strength Characteristic, not with the Strength Characteristic of their weapons. If you try to argue otherwise, my Railgun carrying Broadsides have all of the sudden become S10 in close combat!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except it does when you are told how to resolve close combat attacks to begin with. You are told you MUST use your special close combat weapon if you have one. So you are using a weapon that you have agreed has no strength.

It is never stated that you have to use the Strength of the weapon in your close combat attacks, only that you must use the weapon. Since the Power Klaw is being used to double the user's Strength value, I don't see the problem. The Power Klaw is being used, and the model's Strength is used for the attacks. Arguing otherwise would result in Power Fists, Power Klaws, Thunder Hammers, Power Weapons and Lightning Claws all making you strike with S0, in any situation, not just against the Monolith.

ChrisCP wrote:He singled it out because the rule says roll "a single d6" Living metal doesn't actually care if you only pick one the fact that two are used is bad. Also how could you possibly claim that only one die affects the outcome if you're rolling two? This is quite a different activity to rolling one die.

ChrisCP wrote:"roll for ap using... and a single d6 no matter what"

All that matters is your rolling two die, which you're not allow to do no matter what.

Ok, so you roll two and you pick the highest....does the lower numbered die mean anything now? No. Therefore only one die is actually affecting the outcome. You're not adding the dice. I don't see why this is hard to understand, an ordnance weapon still gets the outcome of str + d6 BUT it gets to choose from 2d6 at a time. I know what you're saying and that it seems the sentences contradict one another but if you really really think about it, it makes sense. It is to signify that ordnance weapons are hitting multiple areas at the same time, but it's not counting as multiple hits as only ONE str+d6 outcome is resolved ultimately.