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@ RobPro That would be an interesting idea....what is the wording that leads you to believe that only weapons can hurt the monolith? Because even back in third edition (when the necron codex was qwritten) the nightbringer and the deceiver didnt use weapons...so you are suggesting they wrote the codex such that necron c'tan cant harm monoliths?
5th edition doesnt use any weapon strengths in cc, so are you suggesting that monoliths cant be harmed at all in cc?

The living metal entry gives us various restrictions on how weapons can hurt the monolith, but Im truly not seeing any wording that means ONLY weapons can huirt the monolith.


Sliggoth

You're the one insisting models don't use weapons when they use weapons in CC, not me. But based on this wording and the ridiculously strict RAW interpretation you are pushing for, it does seem likely that MCs without weapons wouldn't be able to hurt a Monolith.

Except that the FAQ already says we get the double strength effect. That's an augmentation, that's a weapon that has no strength characteristic of it's own but uses the Model's strength, and the FAQ says we get it.

As far as I'm concerned you either get both the +1 and the x2 or you don't get either. Obviously we get one of them, so we get both. They're both augmentations to a CC weapon, so for whatever reason we get one of them (strengthening the model is just the better argument so far) we get both of them.

And if anyone actually put that 0 +D6 argument on the table I'd pick up my models and do something more interesting than talking to them. A Necron player who argues for the +1, I wouldn't mind so much. I'd strongly disagree with him and think him a rule lawyer but still.

But what do I know?

Kevin949 wrote:

RobPro wrote:Now you're just making stuff up.

What part of that is actually made up? And please, tell me how a unit would not be able to use their strength stat when swinging a weapon.

When the special rules for what they are swinging at says that you can only use the unmodified strength of the WEAPON plus 1d6. Not using a weapon, then all you get is the 1d6...............

Using the model's strength is a general rule from the main rulebook. It is bumped by the Monolith special rule for Living Metal. Soooooooo........... See the problem with the "I'm not using a weapon" stance? No weapon, no unagmented strength of the weapon to apply to the hit. And the Necron Monolith Living Metal rule is very specific, all you can ever get for penetration is the unagmented strength of the weapon plus 1d6, NO MATTER WHAT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ork Cyborg wrote:Except that the FAQ already says we get the double strength effect. That's an augmentation, that's a weapon that has no strength characteristic of it's own but uses the Model's strength, and the FAQ says we get it.

As far as I'm concerned you either get both the +1 and the x2 or you don't get either. Obviously we get one of them, so we get both. They're both augmentations to a CC weapon, so for whatever reason we get one of them (strengthening the model is just the better argument so far) we get both of them.

And if anyone actually put that 0 +D6 argument on the table I'd pick up my models and do something more interesting than talking to them. A Necron player who argues for the +1, I wouldn't mind so much. I'd strongly disagree with him and think him a rule lawyer but still.

But what do I know?

See, that's just it, it's not an aumentation. The FAQ is a statement that the unaugmented strength of a Power Fist is 2 x users strength. In other words, they're sayinbg, hey, this is a weapon and this is it's strength value. Adding +1 for Furious Charge is augmenting that weapon's strength. Just like adding Tank Hunter to a lascannnon's penetration would be augmenting that weapons strength.

For the record, I have an Ork army myself and do NOT play Necrons. So go ahead, call me a rules lawyer.

Except with Powerfists and powerklaws apparently.

don_mondo wrote:
See, that's just it, it's not an aumentation. The FAQ is a statement that the unaugmented strength of a Power Fist is 2 x users strength. In other words, they're sayinbg, hey, this is a weapon and this is it's strength value.

No, it says the exact opposite of that. It says that:

'a model with a powerfist/claw that
attacks a Monolith get[s] to double its Strength for
armour penetration rolls'
or
'powerfists... still double their user’s Strength when
attacking a Monolith'

The model is doing the attacking, and it is with the user's strength (albiet augmented).
It does not say that the power fist has a strength value of 2x the models strength, it says that the models strength is doubled when attacking with one.

Either you follow the faq, and CC model strength is obviously augmentable in some fashions... or you follow strict raw and CC attacks don't work at all because they are not with str value weapons.
One seems much more reasonable to me.

Ork Cyborg wrote:

And if anyone actually put that 0 +D6 argument on the table I'd pick up my models and do something more interesting than talking to them. A Necron player who argues for the +1, I wouldn't mind so much. I'd strongly disagree with him and think him a rule lawyer but still.

This all stems from saying the +1 doesn't apply. I don't believe it applies, and certain elements are bringing the argument down this road.

This all stems from saying the +1 doesn't apply. I don't believe it applies, and certain elements are bringing the argument down this road.

Now that I've thoguht about it more, I can definetly see where some people would see that working. I sitlll don't think that's how it SHOULD be, if it is or not (which is still debatable, or else we wouldn't be here) but I can see where you're coming from with it. However we come to a few problems. The main one, to me, is WHY ARE POWERFISTS EXEMPT FROM THIS RULE! GW should have given either a mechanical or at least fluffy reason for it. Powerfists have so much force that they can just smash through the Living Armor? Ok, so Powerfists and Klaws only. The power weapon's field ignores the Living Armor's effect? Super, so powerweapons aren't affected. The strenght of the blow isn't affected, just special rules that make penetrating armor easier for the model? Ok that lets pretty much every CC weapon go through.

What is a "weapons strength"? Is a weapon's strength in CC, with a few exceptions (runeblade and the like) the currient strenght of the model? The original strneght of the model? Here's how I prefer to see it from a game mechanic's standpoint.

Weapon's strength is equal to the Model's current strength. Un-augmentned Weapon's Strength is equal to the current strength of the model. Augmented Weapon's Strength is equal to the current strength of the model +x where x is any number. This bonus can come from them attacking a vehicle (Tank Busters) or from having an ability that changes the strength amount to a specific number (Runeblades). If a power would add dice to the penetration role, or if it changes the weapon's strength from something different to the model's current strength, then Living Armor ignores it.

Furious Charge changes the model's strength before it even swings it's attacks (as the model assaults). As such the model's current strength is nine. The weapon's strength there fore is nine. No other modifiers are placed on it, so this is the model's unaugmented strength.

Now I don't expect you to agree with me, and I'll be honest, I'm not the most experienced in this. I do hope however you can see where my argument comes from, and can respect my wish to play the game as such. Now in a tournament, I'd go with whatever the TO says, obviously.

Not that it matters to me much. There's only one Necron player I know, and he's very laid back and more interested in modeling and fluff than he is in rules anyway.

As GWAR might say, "Current strength != base/unmodified strength."

don_mondo wrote:
When the special rules for what they are swinging at says that you can only use the unmodified strength of the WEAPON plus 1d6. Not using a weapon, then all you get is the 1d6...............

Using the model's strength is a general rule from the main rulebook. It is bumped by the Monolith special rule for Living Metal. Soooooooo........... See the problem with the "I'm not using a weapon" stance? No weapon, no unagmented strength of the weapon to apply to the hit. And the Necron Monolith Living Metal rule is very specific, all you can ever get for penetration is the unagmented strength of the weapon plus 1d6, NO MATTER WHAT.

I'm not on the side of people saying they get 0str so why are you trying to rationalize to me? Also, I don't know how many times I can say it no cc weapon will ever have a str attribute because there is no force acting upon the weapon until a unit wields it. It astounds me that people don't understand this. Guns have a str because there is a force separate from the models arms acting upon them.

Wych Blades are S9 against vehicles. If models don't use weapons to attack, then Wych blades never work.

Kevin - wrong, relic blades are S6, NOT the model.

Etc.

So a couple of exceptions to the rule, but those few special cases don't make it the norm and certainly don't mean every other CC weapon is like them. Plus, if memory serves aren't those vastly different CC weapons than a typical power weapon? In regards to a power weapon being a physical thing powered by something for the ability to ignore armor saves.

The relic blade is a 2 handed power weapon that strikes at S6. If you claim CC weapons can have no strength, then this is incorrect.

The "unaugmented" strength of a relic blade is 6, meaning you would roll 6+D6 against a monolith.
#
HEnce the issue - either you read the line as saying only weapons can hurt the monolith, in which case those without are out of luck BUT feel free to augment the strength of the wielder are out of luck or -and here is the easy solution - you simply determine that when they said S+D6 they really, really, REALLY meant ONLY S+D6, not strength-which-is-altered-when-you-want-it.

Well, unfortunately I don't know enough about all the previous versions of this game and all the little nuance things of every army to get into more detail about this, but this is really one of the most ridiculous rules arguments I've ever heard.

Living Metal is a complete pain, hence the "stealth" rprint whcih was suppsoed to clear it up - and I doubt they really meant for people to argue whetehr or not "you only get unaugmented S+D6, no matter what" could be avoided by arguing about the strength of the wielder.

Ork Cyborg wrote:

Furious Charge changes the model's strength before it even swings it's attacks (as the model assaults). As such the model's current strength is nine. The weapon's strength there fore is nine. No other modifiers are placed on it, so this is the model's unaugmented strength.

Except, of course, that the rules specify that the +1 is added after doubling, meaning it's not the users base strength at all. If it was, then it would be (ST+1)x2 instread of (STx2)+1

What does the living metal rule say? It says any WEAPON (yes any weapon) attacking gets str +d6.

Now, does it in any way, shape or form limit attacks to weapons? No it does not. It does say any weapon attack has limits, but it does not even address any attacks from a model's own strength.

So what does this mean? It simply means that living metal (under 5th edition rules) only affects shooting attacks. The way that cc attacks are resolved means that living metal doesnt interact with cc attacks at all.

It really is that simple. Living metal affects attacks from weapons. Close combat attacks fo not use weapons in their resolution. If a weapon even has a strength it is ignored in cc. It is always the model's own str that is used in cc.


Now if in 6th edition (or 7th, or however long it takes for a new necron codex to come out) it may be possible that cc attacks will be changed and weapons will be changed and we would at that time use weapon str in cc. Until that time however, living metal will not be affecting cc since weapon str doesnt matter in cc.



Sliggoth


PS please note the wording on the relic blade. The hits are resolved at str 6, so that means that the relic blade must set the model's str to 6. It is certainly POSSIBLE that the relic blade has a str itself of 6, but we arent told that. We are told that hits while using it are str 6 hits. Which in game terms means that the user has str 6.

Except if the user is called to make a Strength test, mere possession of the Relic blade will *not* cause the user to be S6 for the purpose of the test. So the bearer is *not* S6 when making cc attacks, the weapon is.

Which leaves a hole in your assumptions.

Sliggoth wrote:What does the living metal rule say? It says any WEAPON (yes any weapon) attacking gets str +d6.

Exactly! And any time you attack in hth, you are attacking with a weapon, even if that weapon is a claw or talon, teeth, fist, rifle butt, whatever. The strength of that weapon is determined by the wielder or by it's special rules.

@don Please show me a reference for the strength of a weapon in cc. Close combat uses a model's own strength characteristic as per pg 38. The only reference to a weapon's strength that I can find for cc is pg 42, where it tells us to ignore the strength of pistols in cc.

And please note, there is NO requirement to use a weapon in cc, remember that the deceiver rules specifically tell us that he has no weapons. The rules for cc use the model's str for its calculations, weapons are only used to give bonuses or penalties in the combat...weapons strength doesnt even exist for the majority of cc weapons.


Sliggoth

Pleae show me where you can attack in hth without USING a weapon. Page 42 says that anything you attack with in hth is a normal close combat weapon. It's the same paragraph you refernce re pistols, don't know how you managed to miss it.............

Who cares what it augments.

Use a deffrolla

aromasin wrote:Who cares what it augments.

Use a deffrolla

Yeah buddy! Never bothered with them before (I was in the cannot Ram camp), but I'm adding some BW w/DR to my Orkified Genestealer Cult.

cc weapons used the models str fc modifies the models str not the weapons so there by bypasses the living metal rule

@Don show you where we can attack without using a weapon in cc? So you are saying that the deceiver cannot attack in cc?

Please read the cc rules, pg 35 on who can attack is a good place to start. Its always the model attacks, the model can attack. There is nothing saying that a model has to use a wepon to attack. Yes, if a model has a weapon it will use it, but the weapon doesnt have a strength, and the weapon is NOT required.


Sliggoth

Nope, I'm saying taht per the rules on page 42, if he does attack, then whatever he's attacking with is considered a CCW with whatever special rules he has. I've read 35, now you read 42, which states that they attack with WEAPONS. And that weapons are required, even if taht 'weapon' is jsut their fist. That's what you're missing (ignoring?). It doesn't matter WHAT they actually use in the attack. power sword, rifle butt or teeth and claws. They're all classed as weapons, per page 42.

@ Don Yes...those are all weapons. (except the fist part, that doesnt seem to be a weapon actually. Pg 42 tells us that all those weapons do not confer any special bonuses to the model using them, and then goes on to examine various other special weapons that do confer bonuses. But, pg 42 really doesnt tell us that weapions are required for cc. And there is also most certainly nothing that suggests that weapons have a str in cc on that page.....quite the opposite actually there.

1) weapons arent required for cc.

2) the vast majority of weapons do not even have a strength for cc purposes.


Sliggoth

i dont know Necrons very well, however, I have read over the relevant rules and thought I should add my two cents onto the 6th page of this discussion. The point that I want to make, that may have been made, maybe not, is: Where exactly is the profile of a power fist? If the necron armor does not allow augmented str of a weapon, and you believe that entails that the power fist cannot be "Double str" where do the rules tell me the strength of the power fist? If I look at a Plasma Gun, I can see its Strength, but for the life of me, I just cannot find the strength of the weapon known as "Power fist".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except if the user is called to make a Strength test, mere possession of the Relic blade will *not* cause the user to be S6 for the purpose of the test. So the bearer is *not* S6 when making cc attacks, the weapon is.

Which leaves a hole in your assumptions.

Not sure if anyone else completely destroyed the point you just failed at making here, but no, there is no hole in what he just said and he didn't make any assumptions. He clearly stated the facts that for the terms of the game's resolution of an attack with a relic blade, the user of the relic blade has a str of 6 for that resolution only. This is what Sliggoth said, your bastardization is erroneous.

This is an example of how the game works like a program, the program queries the assault phase rules section where it states:

SPECIAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS
These include more complex and powerful weapons
that enhance the wielder’s combat skills and confer
bonuses, and sometimes penalties, to the models using
them. The most widely used are listed below:

which clearly states that the special ccws confer bonuses on the model.... "The Most widely used are listed below" allows for more than those listed below and the Relic Blade is thus one of them. The relic blade section says that the hits are resolved at STR 6... whose str is 6? Well, the reality is that this question is irrelevant, but since the only guidance on the topic clearly states that CCWs confer bonuses on the models... then there is nothing which states that the weapon has any statistics to augment... the model, however, does. But yet again this is completely irrelevant, the game need only know that a hit from a model wielding a relic blade is resolved as if the model has STR 6 (since the weapon has no STR value). Finally, does a relic blade go flying around a battle field? No, it is wielded by a model. Thus it confers bonuses on the model wielding it...

QED

If you've read the thread, you'll see that nobody is arguing whether a power fist doubles the user's strength.