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Mabye you need to reread the rules on powerfists nos?

pg 42 brb, heading : pwoer fists
"a power fist (or power "klaw")is an armored gauntlet surrounded by a disruptive energy field. A power fist is a power weapon, and also doubles the users strength (up to a maximum of 10) Powerfists however, are difficult and cumbersome to use, so attacks with a powerfist are always delivered at Init 1..."


That doesnt say a powerfists strength is 2x the wielders, it says that by having a powerfist/klaw equipped the models strength statistic is modified by 2x, the pwoerfist never has a strength statistic ever. The only way to augment the "strength" of the ccw is to add another dice for armor penetration.

Furious charge modifies the models strength and init, not the weapons, also not an augmented strength of the WEAPON.

People need to stop getting hung up on the "unaugmented" part. This only refers to the weapon, not the Strenght. The living metal rule ONLY affects the following:

Lance, Melta, Blaster, Monstrous Creatures and Chainfists.

By the same token, Tank hunters also works against the monolith. As you're still rolling for penetration with S + single D6 while the +1 gets added after the roll.

Except you are no longer rolling S+D6, are you? You're rolling S+D6+1

Incorrect, you're rolling S+D6 and adding +1. Nowhere in the entry says that "You roll S+D6 and thats the final result"
It just specifies that you can't generate more dice on the initial roll through melta's chainfists etc

I feel like we're arguing with a radio.

So why is this thread even continuing when there has been an official FAQ from GW regarding this?

What part of "no matter what" are you struggling with?

Are you rolling for armour penetration? Then you get unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what

You are trying to say S+D6+1 == S+D6. which is so incorrect it is silly....

The unaugmented strength of what, nos? Of the weapon, or of the model?

Let's say i'm struggling with it just as much as you guys are with the whole Model vs weapon thing (Living metal doesn't care about the stats on the model, models dont have melta, blaster, lance or chainfist attacks, weapons do).

Honestly I've dissected the living metal entry as much as anyone could have. In my games Nobs with PK's and Furious Charge will be S9 when attacking the lith, and Tank hunters will also work. Luckily I don't think this'll be too much of a problem seeing as we're across the world from eachother and the chances of us ever playing a game of 40k are pretty much nil.

Weapon.

So S (of the weapon) + D6 is all you ever get. Trying to add +1 for Tank Hunters? Not allowed, as you are then rolling S+D6+1.

Nos, whaty you dont get is that it works a little differentlyly.

Yes it is strength of tthe model + d6 only ever for pen, however the strength of an ork nob on the charge is 9, to find the str value you add d6 to you look at the final stat of his str, then add d6 to that and you have sucessfully done str + d6 only.

Tank hunters however, wouldnt apply, and would be negated by living metal, as they " add +1 to their penetration roll" which is not the same as an ork nob becoming str 9 for the duration of that assault phase via furious charge and a power klaw.

I'm leaving this, because the point nos is trying to make has been refuted 13 times (I counted!) in this thread.

D'Ork - the point about S+D6 is all you ever get? Or another point?

Given that it is from the codex (stealth second printing) deos meaqn it is a tricky one to refute.

Wait, so tank hunter doesn't count against a lith?

No Tank Hunter won't affect a Monolith. It adds +1 to the penetration roll.

D'Ork wrote:

Heah, its a pic of GWAR!

Infreak wrote:No Tank Hunter won't affect a Monolith. It adds +1 to the penetration roll.

Hm, so I gave my buddy an advantage over the weekend and he still couldn't bust my liths. Hah.

Just to put it another way from an outside source to help make sense for nos -

instead of thinking: str*2+d6+1=result

think: (str*2+1)+d6=result

You aren't adjusting the bonus to the attack by +1... the +1 is inherent to the strength of the furious charge attack. Hope I might have put it another way to make sense.

...and the strength has still be augmented by Furious Charge.

That is the "unaugmented strength" part. Unless you claim the weapon has no strength, in which case it doesnt work.

Well, that would be the result based on what they're saying.
1. The only penetration you can use against a monolith is the unaugmented strength of the weapon and 1d6
2. Powerfist isn;t a weapon, or has no strength or whatever they're claiming.
3. Result, a model with a powerfist gets ST 0 + 1d6 armor pen against a monolith.

Now that's obviously quite silly, but that is what the "I get +1 for Furious Charge because it's the users strength not the weapons strength" argument results in..............

Meltagombs also roll 0+D6

1. The only penetration you can use against a monolith is the unaugmented strength of the weapon and 1d6
2. Powerfist isn;t a weapon, or has no strength or whatever they're claiming.
3. Result, a model with a powerfist gets ST 0 + 1d6 armor pen against a monolith.


1. the unaugmented strength of the WEAPON, furious charge does NOT modify the pwoerfists NONEXISTENT strength.

2. you are correct. it is a special ccw with no str value, that merely doubles its users strength by being equipped, and acts as a power weapon in close combat.

3. incorrect a model with powerfist gets (str*2) + d6, or [(str*2)+1] + d6 with furious charge.

And as you point out - the WEAPON HAS NO STRENGTH.

Which means you get 0+D6 against monoliths.

Or, you realise that the user is still hitting and as such their unaugmented powerfist strength is 2S, and that therefore 2S+1 has been augmented.

No, the powerfist having no str does not mean 0+d6, you are using the models strength for armor pen purposes, but thats still not the strength of the "weapon" being modified, but the wielder.

The models strength can be augmented all you want, the restriction is on weapons, which only really applys against shooting attacks and meltabomb type things.

in the end it will equate into strength + d6, as you need to find the nobs current strength for that assault phase you would see he has a power klaw and assaulted { [(4*2)+1] }, so his strength is 9, the power klaw still has no strength and youre using the nobs strength, not the nonexistent str of the pwoer fist/klaw for pen rolls.

these two points are not mutually exclusive....

see page 63 BRB assaulting vehicles section; subheading armor pen in close combat

armor penetration is worked out the same way as in shooting (d6+ THE STRENGTH OF THE ATTACKER) ..." note it does NOT say d6+ the strength of the weapon.

The arguement is being made that a power fist doubles a model's strength, and furious charge adds +1 to a model's strength.

Neither is modifying a weapon.

So when a model hits a monolith, we use the model's str to compute the chances of a pen or glance. Any time a model strikes in cc we use the model's strength, so any effect that changes a model's strength is not affected by living metal. In cc weapons do not generally have a strength, its always the model that has a strength. (always keeping in mind that weird things such as a wreckin ball may perhaps be different)

Now tank hunters adds to the pen roll, so that effect is exactly what living metal prevents.


So since a power fist/ klaw and furious charge both modify a model's strength and not a weapon's strength...living metal doesnt apply, is the idea in this arguement.


Sliggoth

However the issue is you are using a weapon - the powerfist. You are told you *have* to use the weapon when making your close combat attacks.

yes, and when you looka t how you conduct an attack against a vehicle in close combat, it specifically says to use the strength of the "ATTACKER" the models strength is not inherently his weapons, especially as ccws dont have str values.

So you have an issue that the weapon you are forced to use doesnt have a strength value...meaning you get no value for armour penetration.

No, as when rolling for armor penetration in close combat against a vehicle, you're told to roll with the models strength, it never states weapon a single time in the armor penetration rolls in close combat section under assaulting vehicles heading..

Except it does when you are told how to resolve close combat attacks to begin with. You are told you MUST use your special close combat weapon if you have one. So you are using a weapon that you have agreed has no strength.

OR, you agree that the attacker is taking the place of the "weapon" in Living Metal, but this means FC does not work as you are augmenting the stgrength of the weapon.

Essentially you either get 0+D6 or 8+D6. Your choice.