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I play Orks, so I don't have the Necron codex in front of me to refer to, but:

From what I've read the rules entry for the Monolith states that weapons with special rules like melta, lance, and "augmented strength" do not work against it. Then it makes a sweeping statement to the effect that "on a practical level, this means that weapons must use their base strength plus the roll of a single die."

This came up when I charged his Monolith with a PK nob. Normally a charging PK nob is Str9 (Str4, x2 for the PK, then +1 for furious Charge), but he argued that both the x2 and the +1 represented an "augmented strength" that would not work. Obviously this is pretty devastating to the Ork army, since PKs are our best anti-tank weapons.

As it was, we decided to count the x2 for the PK but not the +1 for charging. Even this was a blow, because it means that only a PK warboss could ever pen a monolith.

So - what is "augmented strength"? Thanks!

"Attacks which count the target's AV as being less than it is do not do so against the Monolith. Similarly weapons that get additional AP dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice"
I'd say you can use the power claws.

There is a discussion of this here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/135009.page#135427

In the end the strength of the model is augmented, not the weapon by a PK or PF. You would get your S 9 (2x S + 1) but if you had a chain fist not the extra d6

C'mon, this is even answered in GWs own FAQs. Yes, power fists (and therefor power klaws) get are double the users strength against the Monolith. It's unaugmented strength of the weapon, and the PF/PK unaugmented strength is 2xST of the user. You do not get the +1 tho.

So the doubling issue was addressed. Thank you. Regarding the +1, and going back to the argument used in the linked thread (the difference between the weapon's strength and the model's strength) it appears that the Furious Charge bonus should still apply. The Furious Charge rule states that "models with this skill...add +1 to their Initiative and Strength..." Furious Charge has no effect on the Str of the model's weapon. Am I missing something?

That was my interpretation as well, although I can certainly see an argument being made the other way as well. When (someday) Necrons get a new dex maybe they will word the rule a bit more clearly...

It is very clear to me. The strength of your nob is 4. The unaugmented strength of a power klaw is 8.

Fearspect wrote:It is very clear to me. The strength of your nob is 4. The unaugmented strength of a power klaw is 8.

Well again, the PF/PK does not have a strength. It "doubles the user's Strength." (page 42, little book) The model's Strength goes (in this case) from 4 to 8, and then from 8 to 9 for Furious Charge. I could see how you might call the FC bonus an "augmentation" (although that term is not really defined), but I don't see how you call it an augmentation "to a weapon." The PF/PK is not being augmented in any way.

Doesn't matter what you consider the +1 for Furious Charge. You don't get it. The current (stealth reprint) of the Necron codex says all you get is unaugmented strength of the weapon + 1d6. So taht's all you get. Add +1 in there for Furious Charge, it's no longer UA st + 1d6, is it?

Don is clearly a man of great conviction, and I won't try to change his mind here. He (and Iron Fist) can play however they like.

Having said that, the manager of GW Fairfax agrees with some of the other posters here - the Furious Charge bonus is inherent to the Ork model, and does not pertain to the weapon. Because Living Metal applies only to weapons, the armor pen of a PK nob is unchanged: 9+D6 on an assault; 8+D6 thereafter. Based on this reading of the rules and the opinion of local GW, that's how my group will play it.

don_mondo wrote:Doesn't matter what you consider the +1 for Furious Charge. You don't get it. The current (stealth reprint) of the Necron codex says all you get is unaugmented strength of the weapon + 1d6. So taht's all you get. Add +1 in there for Furious Charge, it's no longer UA st + 1d6, is it?

Furious charge specifically augments the Strength characteristic of the model it does nothing to the strength of the weapon weiklded by the model.

USR Pg 75

As Furious Charge augments the strength of the model and not the weapon models with furious charge will most definitely get the +1S on the charge. Relate it back to if this were to actually happen; How would the fact that Monolith has living metal in any way shape or form affect the Ork from flipping out and gaining the +1S?

Now RAW, the Powerklaw/fist SHOULD NOT be getting the double strength value as per: "Any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what"

But then the Necron FAQ comes in to play and decides to give Ork armies a fighting chance against the Monolith and rules that Powerfists/klaws do still double their S.

TL;DR PK nob = S10 when assaulting Monolith

Firstly, S9 as additions are *after* multipliers.

Secondly, S8 is the unaugmented strength of the PK. Now, when you try to use S9 is this a different, nay an *augmented* strength? Why it is!

Meaning you dont get it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Secondly, S8 is the unaugmented strength of the PK. .

Why do people keep saying this? Can someone cite a page in the rulebook that says "A Powerfist or Powerklaw is Strength 8."? Instead the rules say that it "doubles the strength of the user." (emphasis mine). This difference is not trivial.

edit: Nevermind - Kadros makes the point I should have posted. It's a weapon vs model thing. People are getting hung up on the "unaugmented" thing - as I did before I understood the nuances of the Living Metal rule.

Furious Charge augments the strength of the model as it is related to the model assaulting regardless of what is being assaulted.

Living metal only affects weapons that would augment the users strenght/AP/whatever. As Furious Charge is not a weapon but a skill that augments the strength of the model and not the weapon, I honestly do not see how it could be more clear? The Living metal entry even goes out of its way to specify weapon (as opposed to model) numerous times.

Yes, and the Strength of the User is S4 at this point.

Now, when you try to add furious charge, which remember comes in *after* multiplication, you get a different value to S8.

Also, nosferatu, I'm sure this is correct but where is it stated that additions from USRs come in after multiplications? I've got a couple of games coming up against Orks and it might come in handy.

Edit: nevermind "Multiple Modifiers" in the BRB

And the rules of mathematics

Kadros wrote:Furious Charge augments the strength of the model as it is related to the model assaulting regardless of what is being assaulted.

Living metal only affects weapons that would augment the users strenght/AP/whatever. As Furious Charge is not a weapon but a skill that augments the strength of the model and not the weapon, I honestly do not see how it could be more clear? The Living metal entry even goes out of its way to specify weapon (as opposed to model) numerous times.

This sums up how I see it exactly, clearly the models strength is 9, the weapon has no str value at all. On top of that, a necron player fighting an ork player over the difference between str 8 and 9 on one nob wielding a PK (or any other similar situation) seems petty.

D'Ork wrote:Don is clearly a man of great conviction, and I won't try to change his mind here. He (and Iron Fist) can play however they like.

Having said that, the manager of GW Fairfax agrees with some of the other posters here - the Furious Charge bonus is inherent to the Ork model, and does not pertain to the weapon. Because Living Metal applies only to weapons, the armor pen of a PK nob is unchanged: 9+D6 on an assault; 8+D6 thereafter. Based on this reading of the rules and the opinion of local GW, that's how my group will play it.

Yep, and at one time the GW staff at Springfield Mall thought that power weapons only worked on the models in btb with the wielder and that all other models that took wounds from it got their regular saves. If I had a dollar for every time I have corrected a GW staff member, retail or otherwise, I'd own half the company. Point being, GW staff, especially the retail guys, can be (and quite often are) wrong.

Bone of contention, Furious charge. It adds +1 to the wielders strength. Great. The Monolith rules state that you get the unaugmented strength of the weapon plus 1d6, nothing more. If you add a +1 to the wielders strength, you're adding something more, aren't you? That's the bottom line, the Necron Codex rules specify what you get, and that's all you get.


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Viper217 wrote:

Kadros wrote:Furious Charge augments the strength of the model as it is related to the model assaulting regardless of what is being assaulted.

Living metal only affects weapons that would augment the users strenght/AP/whatever. As Furious Charge is not a weapon but a skill that augments the strength of the model and not the weapon, I honestly do not see how it could be more clear? The Living metal entry even goes out of its way to specify weapon (as opposed to model) numerous times.

This sums up how I see it exactly, clearly the models strength is 9, the weapon has no str value at all. On top of that, a necron player fighting an ork player over the difference between str 8 and 9 on one nob wielding a PK (or any other similar situation) seems petty.

And if it's a Nob squad with 5 or 6 or more of those Power Klaws?

Bone of contention, Furious charge. It adds +1 to the wielders strength. Great. The Monolith rules state that you get the unaugmented strength of the weapon plus 1d6, nothing more. If you add a +1 to the wielders strength, you're adding something more, aren't you? That's the bottom line, the Necron Codex rules specify what you get, and that's all you get.

Why would you post something that disagrees with the point youre trying to make?

Furious charge modifys the MODELS strength, NOT the power fists/whatever weapon hes wielding, weapon =/= model.

Bone of contention, Furious charge. It adds +1 to the wielders strength. Great. The Monolith rules state that you get the unaugmented strength of the weapon plus 1d6, nothing more. If you add a +1 to the wielders strength, you're adding something more, aren't you? That's the bottom line, the Necron Codex rules specify what you get, and that's all you get.

Can you point out where it says the unaugmented strength of the USER in the living metal rules? Furious Charge has nothing to do with what weapon is being used, living metal ONLY applies to weapons (as specified multiple times in its entry)

In conclusion; Nob with PK = S9 against monolith in Close because the +1S is conferred by a USR and not a weapon, and because of that fact the living metal rule has nothing to do with it.

don_mondo wrote:
Bone of contention, Furious charge. It adds +1 to the wielders strength. Great. The Monolith rules state that you get the unaugmented strength of the weapon plus 1d6, nothing more. If you add a +1 to the wielders strength, you're adding something more, aren't you? That's the bottom line, the Necron Codex rules specify what you get, and that's all you get.

Yes, I'm adding something more - to the model. Nothing in the description of the Living Metal rule has any effect on the armor penetration calculations based on a model's strength. Models and weapons are not the same thing.






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I agree that the difference is significant, BTW. Str 9 can pen the monolith - Str 8 only glances.

As a Necron player, I agree, the difference is significant. but just because it gives them a greater chance to junk my monolith doesnt mean I can ignore RAW

You're adding something more to the penetration roll. Per living metal, you can't have it. Doesn't matter where the additional bonuses to penetration come from. All you're allowed is the unaugmented strength of the weapon, in this case we know that the weapon strength is 2 x users strength, and 1d6. If you add anything to this from anywhere, you've changed the math formula and it no longer falls within the Living Metal rules. It's really that simple.
And for the record, I do not play Necrons, used to play Orks. So I'm not arguing for my own benefit.

Sigh...

D'Ork wrote:Sigh...

Hehehehhee, my feelings exactly.........

If you add anything to this from anywhere, you've changed the math formula and it no longer falls within the Living Metal rules

sorry don mondo but youre wrong, if living metal rule said the unmodified strength of the model yes, furious charge, while adding strength to the model isnt effecting the weapon.

A powerfists strength is NOT 2x the users, a pwoerfist HAS no base strength, it MODIFIES the users strength.

Also, increased str is not a bonus to penetration, an extra dice to add to your str is.

Yeah, keeping a sense of humor about things helps immensely.

KDS - I suggest you read the rules for a powerfist, which is defined as havbing a Strength double the users.

Have you arrived at a strength other than double the users strength? Then living metal tells you to feth off. Oh, and its why tank hunters doesnt work either - that isnt an extra D6 either.