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Fateweaver wrote:I'm sure the cost would prohibit most from owning a tank.

Not many have 10's of millions of dollars/pounds laying around for a used/new Abrams.

I doubt you would be able to own an Abrams but if you want a tank the rhino lookalike is for sale

Chongara wrote:

Tilean Bastard wrote:I have an elephant rifle in the basement, and a Cavalry sword!

A sword is also an extra penis good for killing things. They're just older and don't work as well anymore.

You keep bringing up penises.

Time for a little soul-searching, friend.

Owning an Abrams is impossible atm. Any Abrams that isn't in active service is getting retro-fitted in Alabama.

A couple of years ago I saw a T34/85 for sale. $64,000. The hardest part about owing something like that is maintenance.

As for the founders concerning modern weapons. Since they had no concept of what a tank was (unless they liked DaVinci), it's hard to say what they would have said (besides HOLY gak! What is that!?)

dogma wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:It's first and foremost our Constitutional Right.

Not the first, given that it isn't protected by the First Amendment, but maybe the foremost; depending on your priorities.

Reading fail. He didn't say it was the first right. He said that it IS a right.

Stormrider wrote:Owning an Abrams is impossible atm. Any Abrams that isn't in active service is getting retro-fitted in Alabama.

A couple of years ago I saw a T34/85 for sale. $64,000. The hardest part about owing something like that is maintenance.

As for the founders concerning modern weapons. Since they had no concept of what a tank was (unless they liked DaVinci), it's hard to say what they would have said (besides HOLY gak! What is that!?)

I don't believe the issue has anything to do with military weapons. Tanks, nuclear weapons, fighter jets, etc. aren't weapons, they're weapons systems. Such things require a crew of (often) highly skilled and trained individuals to operate. As mentioned, people see the tactical advantages of tanks and mechanized war, but they're not seeing the fact that they take multiple crew to operate, not to mention the logistical support of mechanics, engineers, technicians, etc. Tanks are known, apparently, for breaking down. Does anyone here who is in the military know how many non combat personel it requires to keep even a infantryman with a rifle going? Let alone a tank?

That is why it is silly to draw analogies between private ownership of arms and private ownership of weapon systems. In other words, the government has no need to say I can't own a nuclear weapon because no individual has the ability to construct or deploy one.

Grignard wrote: Does anyone here who is in the military know how many non combat personel it requires to keep even a infantryman with a rifle going? Let alone a tank?

This is one of the few times that I can't draw upon my military experiences to answer a question. Mainly because Cav Scouts are designed and trained from day 1 to be 100% self sufficient. We are our own cooks, clerks, supply, armourers ect ect ect.

However, my own two cents, is that while im not sure how many people it takes to "support" line troops.. I feel that they are currently over strength and need to be thinned out.

but but without beaurocracy, the world would implode!

Grignard wrote: Does anyone here who is in the military know how many non combat personel it requires to keep even a infantryman with a rifle going? Let alone a tank?

I'm not in the military, but there are only ~400,000 combat personnel in our military, which is ~1.5 million. The ratio is therefore ~2:1, but that doesn't include the many civilian contractors who handle food and similar services. In practice the ratio is closer to 5:1.

I enjoy target shooting. I missed going to the range from when I was in the Army and have recently purchased an LWRC M6A2 and have been hitting the range on a regular basis. I find it gratifying to be able to pull down a target with accurately placed shot groups. Like a dart player with the ability to peg the bullseye at will or the basketball player who sinks three pointers with a whim, it's a skill, and people enjoy putting thier skills to use. I enjoy putting my skill to use at 2800 feet per second

I've been invited to go on a hog hunt (Feral hogs are a real problem here in Texas) and I'm looking foward to that.

Home defense is another matter entirely and I really don't feel like opening that can of worms. I'll leave my reasons for enjoying firearms at the recreational level.

I also enjoy target practice, but I also have my fire arms to protect my family. Because realistically you can't always expect that the police will get to you in time. We all have seen evidence of horrible violent crimes being committed, home invasions and maniacs high on drugs. These atrocities are not just limited to the United States. At least in my country we have the right to protect our selves with a fire arm if God forbid that it might ever become necessary.
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M66 wrote:I also enjoy target practice, but I also have my fire arms to protect my family. Because realistically you can't always expect that the police will get to you in time. We all have seen evidence of horrible violent crimes being committed, home invasions and maniacs high on drugs. These atrocities are not just limited to the United States. At least in my country we have the right to protect our selves with a fire arm if God forbid that it might ever become necessary.
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The one time my sister came to me because drunkards seemed to be outside... I just grabbed a fire poker

M66 wrote:I also enjoy target practice, but I also have my fire arms to protect my family. Because realistically you can't always expect that the police will get to you in time. We all have seen evidence of horrible violent crimes being committed, home invasions and maniacs high on drugs. These atrocities are not just limited to the United States. At least in my country we have the right to protect our selves with a fire arm if God forbid that it might ever become necessary.
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And irrational generalisations like that give America as a whole a bad name

@ Squig Herder: What was the irrational generalization in that post, exactly?

Are we still talking about guns?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Americans like swords too!

Pretty sure I'm not looking at her sword. LOL.

You see this is why Alpharius has quickley become my favorite MOD on this site, he keeps things in perspective. How can you not just love such beutiful things as guns.

@ Monster Rain: Squig_herder was refering to the paranoia that seems rampant in all of our justifications about home defence. People with this mind set don't realize that this is justified in our culture and they would rather that we give police MORE power and make them deal with it. They look out their windows or go outside and see the police on the street everyday and it makes them feel safe and that is good enough for them.

I have a question for all of those who see me as the redneck that I surley am. How much do the police in your city get paid per year? I remeber talking to a cop one night, we were chatting about things and somehow we got on the topic of what I do for a living. I was pretty proud to tell him that even in this city basically right out of colledge I make $30,000 a year (which is about what most people twice my age make around here) he smiled and told me how he make $120,000 + fully paid benefits last year and that was only because they cut his overtime, and when I asked he said he didn't do any moonlighting as a security guard or anything like that. Grated he had several good reasons to justify making that much (5 years MP at fort Benning for one) but how many officers do you think a dying city like Buffalo New York can support at that pay rate? This is why we own guns my friends because in the end it's cheaper then paying for more police.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:You see this is why Alpharius has quickley become my favorite MOD on this site, he keeps things in perspective. How can you not just love such beutiful things as guns.

@ Monster Rain: Squig_herder was refering to the paranoia that seems rampant in all of our justifications about home defence. People with this mind set don't realize that this is justified in our culture and they would rather that we give police MORE power and make them deal with it. They look out their windows or go outside and see the police on the street everyday and it makes them feel safe and that is good enough for them.

In my town, emergency services take a while to get to you. When I had to call an ambulance for a family member it was about a 20 minute wait... Depending where the one cop on patrol on any given night is, it could take even longer. One might need to take matters into one's own hands in the meantime. People with the mindset you are referring to lack perspective.

Wow. A cop fresh from the academy around here gets paid around $16/hour or $30k/year.

I could go work construction as a sign holder (the dudes that hold the "Slow/Stop" signs up) making the same.

I'd like to think cops aren't in it for the pay in this county as the pay is gakky for the crap you gotta deal with.

"When seconds count the police are just minutes away." That's a motto I live by.

From what I know of a lot of policemen here... they love being able to exercise power over their fellow citizens... Though ofc there are some sentimental types.

Fateweaver wrote:Wow. A cop fresh from the academy around here gets paid around $16/hour or $30k/year.

I could go work construction as a sign holder (the dudes that hold the "Slow/Stop" signs up) making the same.

I'd like to think cops aren't in it for the pay in this county as the pay is gakky for the crap you gotta deal with.

"When seconds count the police are just minutes away." That's a motto I live by.

In Nashville I looked in to it and you can start at 45k with a college degree. I have better things to do with my degree than get shot at by gang bangers though.

I imagine a few get into it because they're idealists who want to do something right, and a majority who get into it because they get a weapon and can tell people what to do.

I have bad experiences with with law enforcement so I have some unfair bias, but I run into a lot of them at the range, and they're pretty cool, so I can deal with them. I just don't care for authority in general though.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:You see this is why Alpharius has quickley become my favorite MOD on this site, he keeps things in perspective. How can you not just love such beutiful things as guns.

@ Monster Rain: Squig_herder was refering to the paranoia that seems rampant in all of our justifications about home defence. People with this mind set don't realize that this is justified in our culture and they would rather that we give police MORE power and make them deal with it. They look out their windows or go outside and see the police on the street everyday and it makes them feel safe and that is good enough for them.

I have a question for all of those who see me as the redneck that I surley am. How much do the police in your city get paid per year? I remeber talking to a cop one night, we were chatting about things and somehow we got on the topic of what I do for a living. I was pretty proud to tell him that even in this city basically right out of colledge I make $30,000 a year (which is about what most people twice my age make around here) he smiled and told me how he make $120,000 + fully paid benefits last year and that was only because they cut his overtime, and when I asked he said he didn't do any moonlighting as a security guard or anything like that. Grated he had several good reasons to justify making that much (5 years MP at fort Benning for one) but how many officers do you think a dying city like Buffalo New York can support at that pay rate? This is why we own guns my friends because in the end it's cheaper then paying for more police.

Buffalo is a special case. Being a son to an officer that worked Internal Affairs I can tell you Buffalo is not the norm. It is grossly corrupt. To levels you wouldn't believe. But thats not the norm for most of the US.

My views on Americans and guns is that we have them because we can. Simple as that. Their just tools. Tools that can be easily misused but still tools.
I enjoy shooting guns because its fun, not because I think Ill ever need them. All this crap about home defense is just that, crap. Say you like guns because you like guns. Theres nothing wrong with that. But all this baloney about militas and defending your rights is what gives Americans a bad name.

Oh and without a doubt people get sexually aroused by guns. Just because you don't doesn't mean someone else doesn't. Plus have you seen some of the porn out there?

DutchKillsRambo wrote:

ComputerGeek01 wrote:You see this is why Alpharius has quickley become my favorite MOD on this site, he keeps things in perspective. How can you not just love such beutiful things as guns.

@ Monster Rain: Squig_herder was refering to the paranoia that seems rampant in all of our justifications about home defence. People with this mind set don't realize that this is justified in our culture and they would rather that we give police MORE power and make them deal with it. They look out their windows or go outside and see the police on the street everyday and it makes them feel safe and that is good enough for them.

I have a question for all of those who see me as the redneck that I surley am. How much do the police in your city get paid per year? I remeber talking to a cop one night, we were chatting about things and somehow we got on the topic of what I do for a living. I was pretty proud to tell him that even in this city basically right out of colledge I make $30,000 a year (which is about what most people twice my age make around here) he smiled and told me how he make $120,000 + fully paid benefits last year and that was only because they cut his overtime, and when I asked he said he didn't do any moonlighting as a security guard or anything like that. Grated he had several good reasons to justify making that much (5 years MP at fort Benning for one) but how many officers do you think a dying city like Buffalo New York can support at that pay rate? This is why we own guns my friends because in the end it's cheaper then paying for more police.

Buffalo is a special case. Being a son to an officer that worked Internal Affairs I can tell you Buffalo is not the norm. It is grossly corrupt. To levels you wouldn't believe. But thats not the norm for most of the US.

My views on Americans and guns is that we have them because we can. Simple as that. Their just tools. Tools that can be easily misused but still tools.
I enjoy shooting guns because its fun, not because I think Ill ever need them. All this crap about home defense is just that, crap. Say you like guns because you like guns. Theres nothing wrong with that.

Why can't it be both? You can't like guns and want to have them around to defend your home?

So you'd trust the police to protect your ass if you didn't have guns in your home.

Not everyone that has a gun for home defense likes guns. Some people do have them for home defense, some have them only for hunting and some only have them for competition. Some have them for any 2 of the above or all 3.

You call home defense crap. You are entitled to your opinion but your opinion is crap. See what I did there?

I use my rifle (30-30) for hunting (upon joint-owned land, w/ a permit, during the season), and for a little bit of target practice. Killing people is bad. The end.

I'd just like to quote (from memory, I hope this is correct...) Gary Paulson (from his book "The Haymeadow")

"All a gun is, is a better way to throw a rock. You are still the one throwing rocks."

I'm a weak guy, I'd feel safe with a gun in my house... But I wouldn't want to be like this guy:

Watch from 2:00 if you want to leap straight to what I'm talking about... just try and deny that this guy clearly has a stiffy over something designed to kill...



I feel it's people like him that make me stereotype you guys as I did in my OP.

Oh, and Blackwater themselves.

Or is it Xee or something now? I forget...

Henners91 wrote:I'm a weak guy, I'd feel safe with a gun in my house... But I wouldn't want to be like this guy:

Watch from 2:00 if you want to leap straight to what I'm talking about... just try and deny that this guy clearly has a stiffy over something designed to kill...



I feel it's people like him that make me stereotype you guys as I did in my OP.

Oh, and Blackwater themselves.

Or is it Xee or something now? I forget...

I want that shotgun. I would sell my left and/or right testicle for it, and 1,000 rounds.

I feel it's people like him that make me stereotype you guys as I did in my OP.

Ok, now consider this:

I could go find a video of a black dude beating somebody up and robbing him.

If you saw that, would you feel ok saying "hey, black people, are you all basically violent criminals?"

No. That's racist. And American, Canadian and British society busily ingrains its citizens with an almost compulsive, Clockwork Orange sort of contempt for racism.

So just ask yourself, why do you feel ok about generalizing one video of one guy to all gun owners, and in fact, based on your post title, all Americans?

I'd argue that it's because the people who spend their time clubbing "diversity" into all of our skulls aren't actually interested in "diversity" so much as in "giving the appearance of protecting their pet voting blocks."

Henners91 wrote:I'm a weak guy, I'd feel safe with a gun in my house... But I wouldn't want to be like this guy:

Watch from 2:00 if you want to leap straight to what I'm talking about... just try and deny that this guy clearly has a stiffy over something designed to kill...



I feel it's people like him that make me stereotype you guys as I did in my OP.

Oh, and Blackwater themselves.

Or is it Xee or something now? I forget...

So- at 2:00 he's talking about the Frag 12 mini grenade.

Are you aware that the Frag 12 is British? designed by Experimental Cartridge Company- and tested by the UK Ministry of Defense back in 94.

So- do we want to do the stereotype thing?

That's a damn fine piece of gunnery and I would own that if ever given the chance.

Fateweaver wrote:So you'd trust the police to protect your ass if you didn't have guns in your home.

Not everyone that has a gun for home defense likes guns. Some people do have them for home defense, some have them only for hunting and some only have them for competition. Some have them for any 2 of the above or all 3.

You call home defense crap. You are entitled to your opinion but your opinion is crap. See what I did there?