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@infamousxiii

Ok, though assault terminators can be much better against certain lists, such as mine, that has 3 vindicators, 6 plasma cannons, and null zone!

In all seriousness, most builds have something that the TH/SS terminators help against.

Look, FNP Terminators die the same way as non FNP assault terminators to what you usually use against Terminators. The only folks who have trouble with this unit are those who are killing Terminators via volume of saves. Those people need to switch to AP 2/power weapons, or use twice as much firepower.

That's about the size of it. If you are currently killing Terminators by charging them with Bloodcrushers, you won't even notice the FNP. If you are killing them by charging them with gaunts, then double down or break out the combat shrikes.

40kenthusiast wrote:Look, FNP Terminators die the same way as non FNP assault terminators to what you usually use against Terminators. The only folks who have trouble with this unit are those who are killing Terminators via volume of saves. Those people need to switch to AP 2/power weapons, or use twice as much firepower.

That's about the size of it. If you are currently killing Terminators by charging them with Bloodcrushers, you won't even notice the FNP. If you are killing them by charging them with gaunts, then double down or break out the combat shrikes.

Win thread.

Something worth mentioning about doubling the number of shots/attacks that you throw in the direction of Assault Terminators is that Terminators cannot engage in Sweeping Advance. If you throw a unit of 20 Hormagaunts backstopped by a Synapse unit 3" behind the closest Hormagaunt, then they can be expected to do the following:

20 Hormagaunts should net 60 attacks, 35 hits, 12 wounds, and 1 casualty. Supposing a unit of 6 Terminators with a Sanguinary Priest and Chaplain, then the Chaplain and Sanguinary Priest get 4 attacks, 3 hits, 2 Hormagaunt casualties, and assuming they're all armed with Thunder Hammers, the remaining five Terminators should get 10 attacks, 7 hits, and 6 more Hormagaunt casualties. The Hormagaunts therefore can be expected to lose by 6, requiring snake-eyes to pass their Morale check.

You don't want them to pass their Morale check though, because you want them to Fall Back, with no risk of Sweeping Advance, automatically Rally because they're Fallen Back into Synapse, and be ready to play catcher to the incoming Terminators. Sure, you've lost 48pts of Hormagaunts to 45pts of Terminators, but you did it by throwing 120pts of Hormagaunts into 485pts of Terminators.

Suppose we crank up those Hormagaunts so that they had Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs, and cost 200pts. Then we could expect to see 60 attacks, 35 hits, 26 wounds, and 2 casualties. That would mean that in addition to the 2 casualties expected from the Chaplain and Sanguinary Priest, four Terminators would have 8 attacks, 5 hits, and 4 Hormagaunt casualties, and the Hormagaunts still run on snake-eyes. Except this time it's 90pts worth of Terminators to 60pts worth of Hormagaunts.

If we really want to even the score, we could suppose that 300pts of 30 Hormagaunts attack powered by Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs. That would mean 90 attacks, 52 hits, 39 wounds, 6 Terminator casualties. The Chaplain and the Sanguinary Priest cause their expected 4 Hormagaunt casualties, and then thanks to the presence of the Chaplain automatically suffer 2 No Retreat saves for no real difference, and face 26 angry Hormagaunts in the next combat phase.

I run 5 hammernators with FNP and nothing has downed them as effectively as a Necron war scythe, as it allows no saves...

It ate right thru em, he had one on the lord and warped right by me with a few pariahs, did not stand a chance...

Don't know how many people run Necrons tho

pariahs can't use the veil of Darkness as they arn't Necrons.

you got Cheated.

Nurglitch wrote:If we really want to even the score, we could suppose that 300pts of 30 Hormagaunts attack powered by Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs. That would mean 90 attacks, 52 hits, 39 wounds, 6 Terminator casualties. The Chaplain and the Sanguinary Priest cause their expected 4 Hormagaunt casualties, and then thanks to the presence of the Chaplain automatically suffer 2 No Retreat saves for no real difference, and face 26 angry Hormagaunts in the next combat phase.

Is it possible for all 30 models to get into attack range? Hmm...

Well, it seems very difficult to actually accomplish; assuming that you are working with one termaguant squad. 2 squads of 20 would be better suited to the job, and could definitely wipe a 5-man + Character termie squad. It is a more significant investment, but the flexibility you get out of it, will be well worth the points.

20 minutes in Vassal and you'll find much the same results. You can clump up and just try to avoid templates, but that seems incredibly risky, as it basically benefits the SM more than a Tyranid. Clumping can be one of the best ways to lose a game, when you are playing with a swarm army.

Hey, speaking of brute force, you know what would be almost equivalent to that unit of Terminators? A brood of three Carnifexen.

If the Carnifex got the charge, then we'd see something more like 4 attacks from the Sanguinary Priest and the Chaplain, 3 hits, and 0.5 wounds on a Carnifex.

Then the Carnifexen would attack because they had the charge and therefore I3.

If they were all 15 attacks on the Assault Terminators, then it would be 11 hits, 9 wounds, and 3 Terminator casualties. Call this A.

If they were 10 attacks on the Assault Terminator and 5 on the Sanguinary Priest, then 8 hits on the Terminators and 3 on the Sanguinary Priest. There should be 2 Terminator casualties, and the Sanguinary Priest should take 1-2 wounds (or 1.67). Call this B.

In situation A the three remaining Terminators would have 6 attacks, 4 hits, 3 wounds, no Tyranid casualties. The combat should tie, and there's three Carnifexen vs three Assault Terminators, a Sanguinary Priest, and a Chaplain.

In situation B the four remaining Terminators would have 8 attacks, 5 hits, 4 wounds, 1 Carnifex casualty. The Space Marines should win by one, leaving a No Retreat wound the Fearless Carnifex will likely save, and there's two Carnifexen vs four Assault Terminators, and a Chaplain left for round 2.

Round 2: Fight!

In situation A the Sanguinary Priest and the Chaplain likely do nothing with their Power Weapons, and there's 12 Carnifex attacks traded with 6 Thunder Hammer attacks. The Carnifexen have 9 hits, 7 wounds, 2 more Terminator casualties. The Thunder Hammers get 4 hits, 3 wounds, for 1 Carnifex Casualty. The Terminators win by one, and next round two Carnifexen will face an Assault Terminator with a Chaplain and a Sanguinary Priest.

In situation B the Chaplain likely does nothing, and 8 Carnifex attacks trade with 8 Thunder Hammer attacks. The Carnifexen have 6 hits, 5 wounds, 1 Terminator casualty. The Terminators have 5 hits, 4 wounds, and another Carnifex is beaten into paste. The Carnifex loses 3:1 or by 2. Next round will be one Carnifex vs three Assault Terminators and a Chaplain.

While the B situation ends up with the Carnifexen getting mulched, they do score a victory point in the form of the Sanguinary Priest and deprive the Blood Angels nearby of his Chalice effects. However, the A situation shows the utility of going after the dangerous part of the unit and then mopping up the useless parts at leisure.

Something interested to point out is that since Carnifexen are I1 anyways, the I1 effect of being hit by a Thunder Hammer is irrelevant.

Even better would be to give them Adrenals, that way they get to strike at the same time as any pesky Claw Termies!

Grey Templar wrote:pariahs can't use the veil of Darkness as they arn't Necrons.

you got Cheated.

Can pariahs use the monolith's teleport?

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:pariahs can't use the veil of Darkness as they arn't Necrons.

you got Cheated.

Can pariahs use the monolith's teleport?

No they cannot. They don't have the "Necron" special rule.

Gwar!:

No, the Adrenal Glands wouldn't lend the Carnifex an advantage. Take the brood and throw it into combat with the same squad of Assault Terminators but armed with Lightening Claws.

Besides the attacks by the Sanguinary Priest and the Chaplain, you'd see 15 attacks by the Terminators, which should result in 10 hits, and 3 wounds. Then the Carnifex get their 15 attacks, 11 hits, 9 wounds, and therefore reasonably 6 Terminator casualties. The Carnifex win by 3 and there's unlikely no wounds from the automatic No Retreat (thanks, Chaplain!).

That extra 15pts spent on Adrenal Glands might add a little extra certainty (which is why I have them on my brood), but in this case it would mean that the Carnifexen outweigh the Terminators and company by 40pts, or another Terminator.

So a better comparison would be three Carnifexen vs seven Assault Terminator and one Sanguinary Priest and one Chaplain; the Carnifexen have Adrenal Glands, the Assault Terminators have Lightening Claws. That would mean the six expected casualties on the Terminators, but 18 attacks from the Terminators, 12 hits, 4 wounds, 1 Carnifex casualty.

Aha, that is a shame!........



























..........Why would anyone use pariahs?

Can carnifexen use the monolith teleport?

How about 255 points of Genestealers with Toxin Sacs - its 15 of them.

45 attacks on the charge striking first, hitting on 3's = 30 hit.
15 wound with 2 of these rending. Toxin sacs rerolls fails to wound for 7 more wounds with another rending.

One Termie dies due to rending.
One-two Termies die due to regular wounds.


For a fully tricked out unit of 5 Termies + Priest +Chaplain = this units probably breaks 400 points.

A maxed out unit of 20 Genestealers with a Broodlord, all with toxins sacks comes in at 388 points (I gave the Lord scything talons).

62 attacks on the charge hitting on 3's = 42 hit

21 wound, 3 of which rend
10 more wounds from re-rolling, including another rending wound
this leaves 27 regular wounds for 2 unsaved wounds plus one dead from the rending wounds

The Broodlord then Hypnotizes the lowest LD model left standing preventing their attacks and when the Termie unit attacks back absorbs one of the non-thunderhammer wounds, saving a model from being removed.

Nurglitch wrote:Lots of stuff about hormagaunts

That's a great idea in a vacuum, but you're forgetting something.

He has an ARMY, and if he lets you just keep doing that then you never had anything to fear from those terminators in the first place. A thunderfire cannon, a couple tac squads with bolters and that hormagaunt unit gets thinned out really quickly. Then of course he just charges them in his turn with the terminators to finish them off and gain ground.

Nice idea in a vacuum, but not in reality.

hmmm for those Space Marine players who can stomach taking a Chapter Master:

Orbital Bombardment, if it's on target it should take out some of the Terminators with its AP of 1.
Then a Vindicator barrage with Str 10, AP 1.

And if THAT doesn't take out a 5 man team of Terminators and a priest I'm out of SM ideas

Vindicators are AP2

Why are the Assault Terminators bunching up for Orbital Bombardments and Vindis?

Corennus wrote:hmmm for those Space Marine players who can stomach taking a Chapter Master:

Orbital Bombardment, if it's on target it should take out some of the Terminators with its AP of 1.
Then a Vindicator barrage with Str 10, AP 1.

And if THAT doesn't take out a 5 man team of Terminators and a priest I'm out of SM ideas

Even against non-TH terminators that are perfectly bunched up, if you get a direct hit, statistically 1/3 of them are still going to make invulnerable saves. In a more realistic situation where they are using coherency, and you have a good chance to scatter, it's not going to do that much damage.

Yeah I guess. I was just trying to think of some things that would hurt a Term squad without having to get close to them with power armour..

bikes would tear them up... a biker squad with 2x plasma guns and a multimelta, plus a librarian will null zone attached on a bike.

This will eat terminators for lunch... especially since you can fire 3 low ap shots per turn from range, and once you get the terminators down to 2-3 bodies left in the squad, you can charge in to 6", and rapid fire those plasma guns.

its still not enough forced Invulns to make 3++ worried.

with null zone it should do fine. I'm thinking about a 5 man squad + priest.

if its a 10 man squad, then fine, throw a second bike squad at the problem. still should be fine.

the biker command squad actually would be a good counter as well, if you load it up with plasma death.

kaiservonhugal wrote:How about 255 points of Genestealers with Toxin Sacs - its 15 of them.

45 attacks on the charge striking first, hitting on 3's = 30 hit.
15 wound with 2 of these rending. Toxin sacs rerolls fails to wound for 7 more wounds with another rending.

One Termie dies due to rending.
One-two Termies die due to regular wounds.


For a fully tricked out unit of 5 Termies + Priest +Chaplain = this units probably breaks 400 points.

A maxed out unit of 20 Genestealers with a Broodlord, all with toxins sacks comes in at 388 points (I gave the Lord scything talons).

62 attacks on the charge hitting on 3's = 42 hit

21 wound, 3 of which rend
10 more wounds from re-rolling, including another rending wound
this leaves 27 regular wounds for 2 unsaved wounds plus one dead from the rending wounds

The Broodlord then Hypnotizes the lowest LD model left standing preventing their attacks and when the Termie unit attacks back absorbs one of the non-thunderhammer wounds, saving a model from being removed.

The Termie squad with Chaplin and Priest both in Termie Armour is 425 compaired to 388, Not too much of a point difference to say a cheaper unit beats expensive unit.

As with most things it requires the Steelers to get there and have taken no losses. It is easier for the Termies to walk accross the board and take no loses compared to the steelers.

3++ forced to re-roll would be worried, but would come out on top against the bikes.

Meh, I either hit more than three with a vindicator, or they are strung out, and make alot of difficult terrain tests, so I get another turn or two to shoot. If they roll poorly. Null zone makes all the difference.

well, yes. if you add nullzone they crumple real fast.

Null Zone and Demolisher Cannon large blast.

I think we all totally forgot about Null Zone. However, a 3++ save, when re-rolled, may still pass. The answer I like the best is to snipe that priest somehow, then you can deal with the terminators like you would any other TH/SS terms.

One vindicare assassin, and one full PAGK squad with incinerators. done deal.