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@Nurglitch:
Yes.

@goggari:
Yes, any shooting helps when you make them roll saves, but being really luck is not a useful suggestion, nor was it a funny joke.

If taken literally, BoC is overpriced and suffers from needing to roll so many dice to get off.
Lets assume BoC kills one.
That would mean the Bolters rapid fired or not would need to cause a minimum of 4 with him failing 4 two up saves.... and if you are talking about FNP termies, then 4 failed FNPs...

1-2 is roughly what to expect and you should be really happy with it.

5 is just really poor/great rolling. ;D

Khorne bloodletters or blood crushers are pretty efficient because of the mass S5 PWs...

The important thing about CC is that you can quickly single out the priest and kill him because of his IC status, effectively removing the FnP.
This could be done with a sacrificial squad, since they only need to kill the priest. In the next turn the rest of the terminators could be taken out with mass fire from the rest of the army.

Bonde wrote:The important thing about CC is that you can quickly single out the priest and kill him because of his IC status, effectively removing the FnP.
This could be done with a sacrificial squad, since they only need to kill the priest. In the next turn the rest of the terminators could be taken out with mass fire from the rest of the army.

Of course if the BA player is in any way smart, he will space his terminators just enough so that the Priest is unable to fit through their bases if they are assaulted, thus keeping him safe for at least two turns of Combat

Then again, how about an equal number of Assault Terminators? Preferably with VulkanHammers?

@dereksatkinson:
That's one idea, but note, they are all infantry pace...

@Bonde:
True, but it's not that easy with a little planning on the BA players' part. (IE Light Bulb Formation).

An issue, what if they get a 2 round combat, though it's not too likely. What about kill points, feeding units is not a great plan in general as you give them extra movement range if you are not careful with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Monster Rain:
Well, everything would really depends who gets the charge, aka "who commits first and loses the initiative."

If you were playing vanilla marines, you could use Sgt. Tellion to snipe the priest from a distance and then take the termies down like you are used to. That would be a cost effective solution, although only possible with one army. You would probably just need to pop the Land Raider first...

You can focus fire, but Telion doesn't mean auto-wound. Rending is both a blessing and a curse....curse being you need that 6 on that exact sequence.

Here's the thing, the sequence you need to get to 'normal terminator' removal.

Prob. Smoked LR, then snipe the FNP dude, then apply normal weaponry on 2+/3++.
It's not to say it's undoable, but it's just too specific... just assume the FNP is still there and if he dies early, then great.

Nurglitch wrote:Hmm. Librarian with Nullzone accompanying a squad of Sternguard with Combi-Plasma Guns?

That is a direct counter to FNP assault termies. No armor, No FNP, RR-Invulns. AWESOME.

The second best option seems to be using transports to block, when you can't kite them anymore.

I also wouldn't expect to see a squad of nothing but TH/Shield termies running around, as the claws are ridiculously awesome on the charge. (Ini5, S5 = gnarly).

What does the battlewagon's def rolla tank shock give in terms of armor penetration? I assume it's -- since it doesn't say. But if you tank shock the unit, everyone takes D6 Str 10 hits. If they accept the charge they 2D6. They'd still get normal saves, but it's a way to target the priest even bubble wrapped and you could even have your load of burna boyz in there.

Ragnar Blackmane and some wolfguard with frostblades. Hit on 3s, wound on 2s, no FNP.

DukeRustfield wrote:What does the battlewagon's def rolla tank shock give in terms of armor penetration? I assume it's -- since it doesn't say. But if you tank shock the unit, everyone takes D6 Str 10 hits. If they accept the charge they 2D6. They'd still get normal saves, but it's a way to target the priest even bubble wrapped and you could even have your load of burna boyz in there.

Hmm... it makes absolutely no sense that a S10 weapon would be AP--... but it appears that you could be correct.

Interesting, does anyone have RAW that confirms any AP value? Not having it spelled out doesn't automatically make me assume it is considered AP--.

this is funny though entire armies worth of fire to bring down a 250 pt squad...I might have to take a unit like this in competitive games.

lol swarm lord comes to mind...Strike First, 3's to hit, 2's to kill. It'd still take a couple turns though. Avg. is like 2.8 or 2.9 kills per phase not counting guard. Plus the terms would have a hard time killing him back. And you wouldn't have to waste a turn on the priest since he does no good against such a monstrosity.

Wouldn't do something like that in a friendly game I don't think. Well...unless I didn't like the "friend" at least.



Edit:

Forgot that it's reroll inv. saves so I guess it'd be like 2.25. Still 2 assault phases with guard or a brood of genestealers (especially with the help of Swarm Leader)

Oh, I know! Blud Tarronz on a Blud Angles Spess Marhine Dreadnoot!

But yeah, in a cruel twist, I am guessing the Blood Tallon Furioso is the best way to deal with Blood Angel Termies. xD

Dashofpepper wrote:Tau: Helios suits. Fusion/Plasma with a multi-tracker x3 that jump into 12" and back out to 18" - that's 6 STR6 AP2 and 3 STR8 AP1 shots per turn; those are fantastic terminator killers.

Yes, I think this is one of the COST EFFICIENT choice. I ll try that.

Dashofpepper wrote:Orks: Ghazghkull Thraka is part of all my ork lists. He chews on terminators. They perish. If they don't have thunderhammers you can also throw a nob squad at them (with cybork bodies of course), and if they do have thunderhammers, throw boyz at them. a squad of trukk boyz on the charge is 11 boyz (44 attacks) hitting 22 times, wounding 11 times, causing 2 failed wounds and 1 failed FNP before the nob even chimes in. You mentioned 3++ saves, so I presume these are TH/SS - in which case I would throw burnas at them in close combat; 45 attacks, 23 hits, 12 wounds, 3 failed invulnerable saves.

Preferably, I would throw burnas AND a unit of boyz at them.

Not a good choice. Most termi squad consist of a combination of TH/SS and LC. They will wipe out a few burnas before they get to strike. And if ultimately your burnas + boys did manage to cause 3-5 wounds, chances are you would still have lost the combat and be forced to take Ld test on the burnas, and fearless wounds on the boys. Didnt send Ghaz in because I knew he couldnt have killled the termi within 1 game turn.

Mass flamer is hardly the solution because most often you will cover about 4 (unless the opponent isnt very good, which then will be an easy fight anyway), 60 hits, 30 wounds, 5 failed armour save, 2.5 dead termi per TRY.

If he's going to cover his priest they have to be "somewhat" close together. And the flamers can be used to kill the priest and he loses a lot of defensive power.

I take 3 vindicators in my lists, so that is no problem for me.

Anyway, what army do you play, that is really where it matters.

Just reading around I realized Eldar have a number of options.

-A Farseer with Mindwar within 18". Farseer rolls D6 + 10, Priest D6 + 9. The difference is the wounds taken by the Priest (if he loses). No armor save.
-DCannon. 24" blast. Wound on 2+ AP2 (so only invuln save), but instant kill on a 6.
-Wraithcannons. Same as above but 12" and no Blast, but you can have 10 of em (damn expensive though).

Uhm how about Null Zone? And a lot of AP2 blast weapons.

Assuming TH/SS, say one takes a plasma wound, with null zone your chances of success went from 33% to 55%.

Still not great, but against TH/SS termies, I'll take it.

Also Corennus, I doubt a Captain suited out like that would make much difference. You'll do about 2 S6 power weapons wounds a turn and with their 3+ invul its not likely to work.

And iirc Bolter Drill only works with, oddly enough, bolters.

TL-AC is not exactly threatning to a termie... assuming they all hit, only 1/6 of your to roll wounds would cause rending. Not reliable enough, though rolling for 6's is always fun!

I got another suggestion. How about an Ironclad dreadnought? AV 13 is utterly annoying to get past even with Thunder Hammers. Though that just may be my horrible dice luck when assaulting.

Hmmmm how about Devastator squad with 4 plasma cannons? Assuming they don't scatter you could take out a squad with repeated plasma blasts.

The new Eldar Nightspinner might not be a bad choice... Might get some lucky rending hits in, might get a pin, and then puts the unit in Dangerous and Difficult terrain slowing them down and killing the odd model with a Dangerous terrain check.

If nothing else, it'd give Eldar players some time/space to redeploy to deal with them.

Valete,

JohnS

Um.....Shadowsword?

Baneblade?

TITAN

If you can put enough weight of fire on the unit you can start forcing wounds onto the priest. Even if it'll take ~200 bolter shots to kill 5 termies, you should be able to kill off the FNP giver long before that and then watch them crumble.

the problem is all of these solutions require 3+ turns of shooting.

this assumes several things.


either the termies are footsloggin(who in their right mind would do that?)

you popped their LR on the first turn(this also assumes you went first and were actually able to immobilize it)

and/or the terminators aren't Deep Striking



if the terminators are footsloggin you can ignore them. you will probably have more dangerous things in your face on turn 2 that will be very distracting. Furioso librarian, Furioso with Bloodtalons, Deathcompany and Assault marines(who will have FnP and FC)





my logic on assault terminators.

if they can't get to me by turn3 then they won't get there at all.


if assault terminators get even 1 movement phase inside a Landraider to move up the board then they get dangerous, but if they are hoofing it then they aren't dangerous.

Grey Templar wrote:
and/or the terminators aren't Deep Striking

This is really the best case scenario for me.

They won't be a problem until at least turn 3, and the turn they come in they are vulnerable to shooting or I can move around them.

if they are deep striking that is 2-3 turns you aren't shooting at them.

and once down they will only have to weather a turn or so of fire before they get into something juicy

But that's when you shoot them with the entire army, then charge. Just hope you've managed to soften up everything else that's been rolling towards you before they came down.

the key word in your post is hope.




if he has assault squads using Descent of Angels alongside the terminators then you are in trouble.

Several Points to make.

Assault Termies can not keep up with Jump Pack Spam or fast vehicles. The rest of the BA army is too fast for termies to keep up with them. It's far to easy for a BA player to make the mistake of engaging with fast units first before slow units can come up to reinforce the fast elements of his army. It's easy to out run the assault termies, and then turn around to engage the fast elements of the BA army that's chasing yours.

No Priest No FNP. Kill the priest. Charge the assault termies with an expendable squad such as truk boys that have a nob or a combat squaded tactical squad that has a pfist sergeant. The Priest is an IC that has no invo in power armor, and a 5+ at best if he's in terminator armor. Put the Pfist/PKlaw in base to base contact with the priest and FNP goes away. Should work just about every time unless half the squad is lightning claws and they wipe out the entire assaulting squad before pfists go off, which is why I don't believe in going 100% Thammer with BA termies.

A priest attached to termies means it's not attached to a fast element of the BA army. Kill the priest that's attached to the fast element of the BA army and most of his army will be without a priest unless they sacrifice their speed to remain close to the termies. The only thing that should really worry people with BA termies is a land raider crusader, so just Kamakazi a melta gun unit to destroy the land raider. No land raider no speed. Blood Angles need speed to win.

Chaos shouldn't be complaining. Just Lash the termies away from your army and you just happen to lash the priest along with them. Units without a priest but inside the priests bubble can lose FNP because lash moved the priest. 3+ invos only go so far when assault termies get lashed together and eat a triple plasma cannon burst from 3 oblits, and the best part is if you force as many wounds on the unit as they have models the attached priest has to take a wound, and guess who is not allowed to take a storm shield

IG should not be complaining. If IG can't pop a single land raider the player is doing something very wrong. If the squad size is 8 or less the IG player only needs to kill 2 terminators. After the 2nd one is dead the psychic battle squad can drop their leadership to 2, and units within 6" can make them fall off the board or at the very least 2D6 + another 2D6 on the BA player's turn. If the IG player has multiple Valks they should be able to move a unit within 6" of the termies every turn until they fall off the board.

Regwon wrote:With orks, charge them with burnas. 15 burnas will get you 45 attacks on the charge. Hitting on 4s, wounding of 4s againts a 3+ inv save kills about 7.5 terminators before they can strike back.

Your math is wrong.

The Burnas get 45 attacks ~ 22.5 hits ~ 11.25 Wounds ~ 3.71 failed saves with a 3+ Inv.