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Frazzled wrote:
Easy test: Would you be embarrassed to show it to your grandmother? (if your grandmother is a Nazi, serial killer, or formerly worked for the IRS then this test might not be especially helpful).

I have one grandmother that I'd have absolutely no problem showing it to. The other one I find ironic because yes, I wouldn't show it to her. She spent 5 years of her teenage life being pursued by Nazis across southern Germany. I think that it invalidates the test a little, but I digress...

After seeing the models again (after some sleep) and seeing the reactions more people are having upon seeing them, I've decided I'm going to scrap the armbands and try to paint up some shoulder pads. I decided this mostly because it doesn't look nearly as good as I thought (even taking into account that the paint job on the models is sub par), although the reactions from people have also helped that decision.

I'll post up some pictures (much) later today of the two ideas I have for shoulder pads, but the issue is more or less resolved now and I just want to make sure nobody thinks I'm treading on the same ground with the shoulder pads (though I seriously doubt it).

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

What are you talking about? The color and look do not scream nazi. Right now they look more like some form of asian prayer flag/divine wind symbol wrapped around the arm. Saying that those models look nazis is like saying a tibetan monk looks like a skinhead.

The Red is closer to the Nazi armbands in hue.
The orange one is close to a vermillion. It is at the red end of the orange range.
It is sufficiently close to evoke the Nazi armbands.

Buddhist robes are saffron. At the yellow end of the orange spectrum.
Monks are swathed in saffron robes so even in 28mm replicas are unlikey to throw up associations with Kristallnacht.

Finally, "what are you talking about?" comes across as being impolite and confrontational. A simple request for clarification of my opinion would have been preferable.
I did not say they scream Nazi. I said that the armbands are sufficiently close to Nazi armbands- remember that they are on scale minis so the warmer orange will probably register as Nazi style- many people will make associateions due to the iconography being so strongly embedded in our minds.

The final call is with the OP. But he has asked for opinions and I have tried to offer a rational opinion in an emotive topic.

1)You know that by posting the picture of the only known Tibetan skinhead that you have killed any possibility of freeing Tibet.

Also, The caucasian lads look more like anarchists tha skinheads, at least from the looks of their flags and pins. They have too much hair to pass for a skinhead in america. . The huys in the picture could possibly be race supremists, but supremists /=skinheads. There is a difference worth noting.


2)My comment about tibetan prayer flags was just that, a comparison to the flags, not the robes the monks wear. Tibetan prayer flags often come with white right next to res with tebetan writing on it that looks like the scrawl on the armbands.


3) Yes the models are small and that combined with the colours would mean that someone someone would have to stretch pretty far past the bounds of logic to make a connection. Here:
a)The colours are all wrong for a german uniform with armband, I have never seen the two tone grey with the red armband. The armband was worn with the brown dress uniforms and by the SS. As far as being worn for combat, I am only aware of the black SS divisions. Here is a link to some german WWII uniforms-
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=wwii+german+uniform+images&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=Y4g8TL7nA4L6lwffgtW3Aw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQsAQwAA" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=wwii+german+uniform+images&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=Y4g8TL7nA4L6lwffgtW3Aw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQsAQwAA

I would see the sleeves as a unit marking because German black and greys were never worn with the Armband.

b)Because the models are small amd tha armbands only share colour, the potentially offended person would have to work pretty hard to make a connection. Honestly, if they are the type to make that kind of connection then they would have be come upset at the Aquila. While WWII germen two tone grey uniforms didn't have nazi armbands, they did have the nazi eagle. The two are closer to one another than his armbands on two tone grey uniforms. Here are links to pictures of each:

Nazi Eagle-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NSDAP_Reichsadler.svg

Aquila Imperialis-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Imperial_eagle.jpg

Seriously, A red and white armband doesn't push the envelope any further than GW has.


4)"What are you talking about?"is polite dakkaspeak for challenging your statement. No aspersions were made against your character and your calling the question confrontational comes across as you can't handle people disagreeing with you. The question is about as simple and polite of a request as you will normally get here at Dakka. IMO, You are coming across as being overly sensitive here.


5)I never said or implied that you said they screamed nazi(Notice the lack of quotations. You have misconstrued a simple statement of perspective into a false allegation. Really, take a breath and consider that you might be transferring in this case.


6)Please note that I said that the OP should go with a darker red. This was not saying to go with the red armband but that overal darker than what he had shown so far. Why? Because, IMO the colors don't really work together. Now if I was going to encourage him to do something nazi themed then I would have suggested that he change the color scheme to either pure black or khaki brown.


Yes the decision is up to the OP, but I disagree about the topic being emotive. The topic is only emotive if you make the choice to let your emotions control you as opposed to controling your emotions. As has been noted before, it is doubtful that there is anyone involved in this conversation that dealt with this first hand. Claiming a second hand connection doesn't justify an emotional response. Survivors who underwent the trauma and have a right to an emotional response, but if someone wasn't alive to have undergone the ordeal then they have no right assume the emotions of those who did.

Interesting anecdote.

A friend went to England awhile back. He wanted to go to GW HQ.

He explained where he wanted to go, and that he didn't know the address.

The cabbie responded with," Oh, you want the Reichstag."

Evidently, the look of the facility, and the giant Double-Eagle led to the non-gaming populace to make that connection.

So, yeah. I would think the color combination and Aquila would give the connection, but the armband reinforces it.

40k actually is indeed historical gaming. People who call themselves historical gamers in an attempt to seperate themselves from other tabletop gamers... well, it's major league vs. college.
It roughly corresponds to a period of time, which although completely fictional, is presented with a history that is both lavish and occasionally lacking in good detail... just like real life. The fantasy aspect of being able to design one's own army does not mean that it isn't ultimately derived from a human understanding of war and what we would consider to be horrible enemies. Tyranids are horrible and evoke the War of Worlds post-invasion imagery in a much more malevolent way. Orcs are well known in many genres as violent brutes and were simply shoehorned into the future-space-war setting. Imperial Guard, on the other hand, gets very human. Every leader is a dictator, every hill is a meatgrinder, every man a resource to scooped up and thrown desperately into the maw of the oncoming beast... all in the name of humanity represented by a super cool dead guy who is apparently coming back one day. Horrible genocide, corruption, casteing, it's all there, and it's all human. Everyone who plays this game subscribes to it regardless of whether or not they endorse it.

There is an obvious difference - no one is going to look at a Chaos army on a shelf and break out in a cold sweat unless something very, very disturbing had happened to them. We can hope, at least, that we are not upsetting people by either NOT playing armies that look like Nazis, or at least keeping them out of public view like all the proper Nazi collectors do anyway.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:40k actually is indeed historical gaming.

You're right. I completely forgot how the marines stormed the beaches of Iwo Jima, brushing aside the ork defenders, with their new anti Shokk Attack Gun battle armor...

Good work taking that out of the context I put it in and back into the one you had it in, followed by a reference to exactly what I was talking about.

I mean it, Frazzled. You're really good at it and I commend you. Your weiners are also very nice.

I don't really see how you can claim that something is both fictional and actually historical at the same time, sorry you've lost me there completely.

I agree that all forms of tabletop wargames share a basic "ancestor" or root to a certain degree and that we are all interpreting this through our own human perception, but to me that still kind of skirts around the essential and gaping chasm of difference between wargames that actively try and portray a real life historical equivalent and science fiction or fantasy wargames.

I didn't. Don't read Frazzled's quote of my post, read my post.

Every element is interchangable. As a Flames of War player, I know that I can grind my helpless conscripts and tank riders into a German gunline for any old reason, but taking it off the open field and recreating a battle from Stalingrad is so much more fun. I wasn't actually there, so we go off a map of the city square, look at reference as well as movies, etc... in the end it's only what we make of it.

If they are different in any way, it's that you generally don't take Soviets or Nazis or Marines into fantastical space adventure battles, and you can do whatever you want if it's all made up. Excuse me for chopping this up at all. but we are talking about Accidentally Nazis in Space. Yes, that's the gaping chasm. I mean, it's not like there are Jews in space. I hope.

Gonna drop my 2 cents into the conversation...

I'm a historian... going to college to be a history teacher... specializing in WW2 North African and Great War Alps Campaigns... and I can think of loads of places where armbands crop up...

http://www.kellybadge.co.uk/Stock/armbands.htm Here are some...

Does this scream "OMG NAZI!?"

For all the Brits in the audience...

http://www.surplusandoutdoors.com/shop/british-militaria/uniform-accessories/genuine-wwii-mp-armband-234642.html My Grandpa was an MP... does the armband really make him look like he committed genocide???

The Nazis did really bad stuff... but for goodness sake, people - most people have...



...plastered all over their IG... and that looks quite a bit like this picture I found on the internet...



... so does that mean all IG players are emulating the Russian Nazi Party?!?

My point is this is a game about little plastic men fighting neverending war. The Inquisition (zealous military force = SS) hunts out members of different religions (Tau, Chaos, Orks, Necrons, etc, etc, etc = Jews) and wipes them off the face of the galaxy. I just drew a correlation between the actions of the Inquisition and the Nazi SS! Does that mean nobody should play against my Sisters and GK because they hate Nazis? Imagery isn't what made the Nazis bad... their beliefs and actions are what made them bad. If you are intentionally emulating their beliefs and actions, then shame on you. If you dig their uniforms, I certainly don't blame you - here's Victoria Beckham sporting a German Grey furry trenchcoat agreeing with us!



***edited for a broken link

If you think the two-headed eagle was an invention of Russian fascists, you should reconsider your labelling yourself as a 'historian'. (sorry if you were just plastering an example)

The imagery is exactly the problem. What they did is exactly what humans have done to each other for millenea. There's very little distinguishing the darker periods in our history but the flags and symbols under which certain actions were committed.

We do use imagery from the Templars and stuff... I mean, there are still living holocaust survivors getting about, and lots of oversensitive offspring. Jews have been killed for being Jews for a very long time, but such a modern symbol of intent against their very lives must be a very oppressive symbol.

The OP perhaps should make his little black squiggle a bit clearer, by recreating it on a large banner carried by the appropriate officer. That way, similar little badges on red armbands can rather be associated with the first thing in the army your eye is drawn to - the big red banner. As long as the symbol on it is very, very clearly not anything like a swastika, you should get away with it clean.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:The derogatory comments about people that can see the problems that could arise are wearing a tad thin.

Amen. Perhaps we need moar MOD alerts.
____

darkdm wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, it'd have been nice if you originally described them as Cadians with dark grey armor over light grey uniforms.

Did

JohnHwangDD wrote:As far as the armbands go, they don't really look like armbands (looks like a different color sleeve), and the insignia is very hard to see or make out. Especially as they're low on the arm and pointing down.

The stripe on the Chimera is nice, but I'd expect to see insignia on it. Also, it can be orange not too difficult.

As you've got your models & paints out, humor me, and do one of the shoulderpads.

Finally, a thin wash of Devlan Mud would do wonders for your models...

Again, the models are not well painted and I don't care much about them, hence why they've been used as test models.

I'll humor you, but please remember that both shoulder pads on my other models are already filled with symbols and numbers. Pics forthcoming tomorrow (late here with work in the morning).

The insignia on the armbands is rank. It's not the army symbol, which is what the dragon head on the chimera is. The chimera won't have a rank insignia because it's a vehicle, nor an armband because (it has no arms ) I don't need to try to make it pop/discern from the sea of models it's in, it already has the pretty red stripe and is much larger than a guardsmen. I like the red with the grey on the chimera, so orange won't happen there...

Not in your initial post, which created all of the issues here. Perhaps if you had taken a little more time at the start, we wouldn't have the mess we have today?

As you can see, iit's hard for people to comment well with a lack of details to work from. You force people to make assumptions which are unnecessary.. It's generally better if you give your commentators more information to work with.

The Chimera should have a number or other ID on it - I mean, your army won't have just a single Chimera in it as the only vehicle in the army, right?

Arctik_Firangi wrote:If you think the two-headed eagle was an invention of Russian fascists, you should reconsider your labelling yourself as a 'historian'. (sorry if you were just plastering an example)

Just an example - saying how a quick google search can yield incorrect assumptions.

If those armbands scream Nazi (which they really don't) I'd hate to think what other connects you guys can make in your minds.

A) German's never wore those bands in battle (The German Army never took on any nazi iconography or symbology what-so-ever - even the SS had it's own set of symbols distinct from the NSDAP ones). This is were the connection really falls flat - someone who actually wanted to make a Nazi style army would do their homework - and as such armbands would not be present as a result.

B) Those black lines look nothing like swastikas.

I honestly wouldn't worry OP. I don't think many will make the connection people have on this forum. They just look nothing like a Nazi armband. If anyone does say anything to you at tournies, just explain in a friendly way why the connection is false.

You shouldn't have to live according to other peoples ignorance IMO. It is their job to educate themselves.


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Not to mention that the rest of the colour scheme is nothing like the grey/green uniform that wehrmacht and SS soldiers wore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:The derogatory comments about people that can see the problems that could arise are wearing a tad thin.

Amen. Perhaps we need moar MOD alerts.
____

darkdm wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, it'd have been nice if you originally described them as Cadians with dark grey armor over light grey uniforms.

Did

JohnHwangDD wrote:As far as the armbands go, they don't really look like armbands (looks like a different color sleeve), and the insignia is very hard to see or make out. Especially as they're low on the arm and pointing down.

The stripe on the Chimera is nice, but I'd expect to see insignia on it. Also, it can be orange not too difficult.

As you've got your models & paints out, humor me, and do one of the shoulderpads.

Finally, a thin wash of Devlan Mud would do wonders for your models...

Again, the models are not well painted and I don't care much about them, hence why they've been used as test models.

I'll humor you, but please remember that both shoulder pads on my other models are already filled with symbols and numbers. Pics forthcoming tomorrow (late here with work in the morning).

The insignia on the armbands is rank. It's not the army symbol, which is what the dragon head on the chimera is. The chimera won't have a rank insignia because it's a vehicle, nor an armband because (it has no arms ) I don't need to try to make it pop/discern from the sea of models it's in, it already has the pretty red stripe and is much larger than a guardsmen. I like the red with the grey on the chimera, so orange won't happen there...

Not in your initial post, which created all of the issues here. Perhaps if you had taken a little more time at the start, we wouldn't have the mess we have today?

As you can see, iit's hard for people to comment well with a lack of details to work from. You force people to make assumptions which are unnecessary.. It's generally better if you give your commentators more information to work with.

The Chimera should have a number or other ID on it - I mean, your army won't have just a single Chimera in it as the only vehicle in the army, right?

I'm pretty sure S/he didn't ask for your patronising little comments regarding his painting. Do you do that at tournaments too? None of your businesss what he puts on his tanks frankly.

Frazzled wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:40k actually is indeed historical gaming.

You're right. I completely forgot how the marines stormed the beaches of Iwo Jima, brushing aside the ork defenders, with their new anti Shokk Attack Gun battle armor...

lol... i hear they even commemorated the event on holy terra with a statue!

warboss wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:40k actually is indeed historical gaming.

You're right. I completely forgot how the marines stormed the beaches of Iwo Jima, brushing aside the ork defenders, with their new anti Shokk Attack Gun battle armor...

lol... i hear they even commemorated the event on holy terra with a statue!

After looking at the painted models. They look close enough to the real thing, as we/you/I/anyone knew they would be. The armbands, also, look very much out of place on those models. How about a red strip on the model somewhere to match the chimera and call it a day?

To Ollieholmes, if I saw a swatsticka on a model, even on a historically correct model, I would be offended and I would take action (and have). Maybe I'm overly sensitive since I had one painted on my door before. So it may not mean a damn thing to some people, but some people get upset, and there are some people who still promote it; the world has not yet moved on enough.

i don't see a problem with the cadians you have posted. i have in the past and would in the future refuse to play against someone with nazi or WWII german iconography on their armies as they don't belong outside of historical games. flames of war? sure, i'd play against the force. 40k orks/marines/IG? nope (including someone who took the old 2nd edition ork stormboyz and painted them up to match german colors).

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Not in your initial post, which created all of the issues here. Perhaps if you had taken a little more time at the start, we wouldn't have the mess we have today?

As you can see, iit's hard for people to comment well with a lack of details to work from. You force people to make assumptions which are unnecessary.. It's generally better if you give your commentators more information to work with.

The Chimera should have a number or other ID on it - I mean, your army won't have just a single Chimera in it as the only vehicle in the army, right?

Fair enough. I'll be more careful in the future about making sure I explain in more detail the first time.

But I also shouldn't have to edit my first post everytime something changes, so it's kind of frustrating to me that people are still talking about armbands when I've already stated they've already been scrapped. It'd be nice if people read more than just the first post in a thread before commenting. It probably won't happen, but I can wish (and if wishes were horses than beggers would ride).

Tehjonny wrote:
I'm pretty sure S/he didn't ask for your patronising little comments regarding his painting. Do you do that at tournaments too? None of your businesss what he puts on his tanks frankly.

Although I agree with you to a point, JohnHwangDD has every right to ask whatever. To that end, no, there is no number on the Chimera right now. I'm still trying to work out how I want to do the numbers for them (yes, plural). But that's not what we're talking about.

Tehjonny wrote:
A) German's never wore those bands in battle (The German Army never took on any nazi iconography or symbology what-so-ever - even the SS had it's own set of symbols distinct from the NSDAP ones). This is were the connection really falls flat - someone who actually wanted to make a Nazi style army would do their homework - and as such armbands would not be present as a result.

B) Those black lines look nothing like swastikas.

I honestly wouldn't worry OP. I don't think many will make the connection people have on this forum. They just look nothing like a Nazi armband. If anyone does say anything to you at tournies, just explain in a friendly way why the connection is false.

A and B are correct (B is a little more sketchy, but it still doesn't). What I don't agree with is the last part.

I asked on Dakka because I did care about people's opinions. The same goes to everyone else who has told me to essentially told me to "tell everyone who doesn't like it to shove off". While I appreciate the enthusiasm, it's not why I posted. If I felt that way, I would have done what I had wanted and not bothered asking anyone. And by virtue that people on here are making a connection like that, people outside of the internet will make the same connection and (statistics says) it'll be the same percentage of people.

Sazzlefrats wrote:
...if I saw a swatsticka on a model, even on a historically correct model, I would be offended and I would take action (and have). Maybe I'm overly sensitive since I had one painted on my door before. So it may not mean a damn thing to some people, but some people get upset, and there are some people who still promote it; the world has not yet moved on enough.

And that's why I asked. Thank you, Sazzlefrats, for stepping up to the plate and speaking your mind. Knowing there are people out there that have enough of a response to do something about me playing with an army that reminds them of Nazis is enough incentive for me to NOT do the armbands.

Sazzlefrats, now that I know what you think, I'll be particularly intrested to know what you think of my ideas for the shoulder pads when I post pictures.

Edit: Can we keep the emotion to a minimum please? I'd like the thread to last at least long enough for me to post pictures and gets thoughts on shoulder pads. I really appreciate everyone who's kept their cool on here, and think that it's been a decent, intelligible disscussion.

Even looking at the images thinking that there was "supposed" to be a connection to Nazi uniforms... It didn't click. They look like gray fatigues with an armband.

I appreciate that people are sensitive to the Nazi issue but... Wow. I just think it's a stretch.

I was going to say "No, I'd have no problem with it", But after looking at them....That might be offensive....I'm not sure.

I have plenty of jewish friends and I doubt they'd be offended by it. I think that gentiles would be more insulted about it, honestly. Things sometimes work that way*shrugs* It's like someone making a black joke around a black guy, but everyone except the black guy thinks it's racist. Totally wierd.

So, to summarize. Most people wouldn't have any problems with it, but I'm sure you'll get "are they Nazis?" at least once a game. The black symbol basically throws off the whole look,TBH. If the guardsmen were green, it wouldn't look even vaguely resemblant of a nazi symbol

Armbands are a stupid idea, first off.

You have shoulderpads, arms with sergeant chevrons on them, etc. That's what you use for, y'know...rank designators. Alternatively, man-up and learn some freehanding to do rank markers on the helmets.

Secondly:

Anytime your first series of statements is about "I'm worried about someone drawing a connection between XXXX and <insert a regime of evil here>"?
You're too close to the line, and should back off or just rethink your idea period.

Tehjonny wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Not in your initial post, which created all of the issues here.

I'm pretty sure S/he didn't ask for your patronising little comments regarding his painting.

Do you do that at tournaments too? None of your businesss what he puts on his tanks frankly.

That's OK, I'm totallly certain I didn't ask you to reply at all.

If you can't tell when somebody is giving facts or constructive criticism then perhaps t3h Intarwebz are not for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

darkdm wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Not in your initial post, which created all of the issues here. Perhaps if you had taken a little more time at the start, we wouldn't have the mess we have today?

As you can see, iit's hard for people to comment well with a lack of details to work from. You force people to make assumptions which are unnecessary.. It's generally better if you give your commentators more information to work with.

The Chimera should have a number or other ID on it - I mean, your army won't have just a single Chimera in it as the only vehicle in the army, right?

Fair enough. I'll be more careful in the future about making sure I explain in more detail the first time.

But I also shouldn't have to edit my first post everytime something changes, so it's kind of frustrating to me that people are still talking about armbands when I've already stated they've already been scrapped. It'd be nice if people read more than just the first post in a thread before commenting. It probably won't happen, but I can wish (and if wishes were horses than beggers would ride).

It's no biggie - all of us (self included) rush from time to time. It's just that even 1000 words doesn't always make a picture.

Yeah, totally OK not to have to re-edit. Tho in this case, with all the silliness, it wouldn't hurt - I mean, I kinda think the last thing you need is *more* people replying to the just first post, which is now out of date based on all the feedback and discussion and so forth...

BTW, I'm totally cool with the way you're handling yourself here. You inadvertently stirred up a hornet's nest, and for the most part everything is OK. Hang in there!

Kanluwen wrote:Armbands are a stupid idea, first off.

You have shoulderpads, arms with sergeant chevrons on them, etc. That's what you use for, y'know...rank designators. Alternatively, man-up and learn some freehanding to do rank markers on the helmets.

Secondly:

Anytime your first series of statements is about "I'm worried about someone drawing a connection between XXXX and <insert a regime of evil here>"?
You're too close to the line, and should back off or just rethink your idea period.

1) The shoulder pads have already been filled, and so rank markers won't fit. That's why I was thinking armbands in the first place. There are chevrons on the arms for sergeants in the cadian kit...but some of mine are armed with the exact same gear as the rest of their squads, and so don't have the chevron arms. Also, the sergeant heads don't have helmets (on the ones I used them for). The rank marker idea includes my platoon and company commanders too, to keep a uniform theme through the army.

And sorry it wasn't obvious, still working on the freehand skills.

2) If I did my cadians similar to WWII armericans, no one would care. But there are parts of the world where the US is the evil empire...

As other people have stated, I can paint my army however I wish. I want to include something in my army that fits my critera, and was then drawing up the connection. But I still wanted to do something, I just wanted to do it without offending people. Which is why I asked here. If I really was thinking I was going to push the boundry, yes, I'd step back and think "hmmm, perhaps the swastica isn't a good idea for a rank symbol for my sergeants".

Are you suggesting that next time I build a chimera, I should step back and think about putting the aquilla on, as I know plenty of people (including myself) who can draw similarities between the Imperium of Man and various facist regimes through time. And I completely see that as the same argument, I know plenty of people who could draw a connection between spaghetti and genocide, and so could (if they chose to) get offended by sphaghetti. People can be offended by things that most people wouldn't think about. And while I thought that red armbands were ok, it's close to something very emotional to some people.

You know what, I like the colour scheme. I like the way you're going with this. I only have two suggestions to put forward.

A) File off the shoulderpads. Give them a bare-sleeve look. It'll suit them better IMO, and make the armband more visible. I think part of what people are worried about is that it's partially obscured by the pads, and so it might be easily mistaken. Personally I don't care either way, but making the armband clearer and more visible as to it not being the same would probably help curb cries of "OMGWTFNAZIS!!!1!!!1!!!!!one!"

B) Make the armbads out of greenstuff. Right now it does just look like you painted part of his sleeve orange. If you've got a spare arm lying around, practice sculpting an armband on it. I guarantee it'll look a thousand times better if it's actually a seperate item from the sleeve


That's really all I can think of, but they would probably be a huge plus for your army's look. Otherwise, I don't see anything wrong with it. Looks fine to me.

metallifan wrote:You know what, I like the colour scheme. I like the way you're going with this. I only have two suggestions to put forward.

A) File off the shoulderpads. Give them a bare-sleeve look. It'll suit them better IMO, and make the armband more visible.

B) Make the armbads out of greenstuff. Right now it does just look like you painted part of his sleeve orange. If you've got a spare arm lying around, practice sculpting an armband on it. I guarantee it'll look a thousand times better if it's actually a seperate item from the sleeve

Thanks!
I completly agree with the ideas for the armbands (and how it looks). If I was starting the army from scratch, that'd probably sculpt them some armbands out of green stuff and go from there. That being said, it's been mostly assembled (save a Russ or two) up to a large number of points and is pastially painted, so I'd rather not have to strip the paint from the models or fiddle with greenstuff on arms attached to torsos.

I really like the red with the gray (part of the initial problem), so I'm going to see what I can do with it on the shoulder pads. It won't be the same, but it should still acheive what I want.

darkdm wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Armbands are a stupid idea, first off.

You have shoulderpads, arms with sergeant chevrons on them, etc. That's what you use for, y'know...rank designators. Alternatively, man-up and learn some freehanding to do rank markers on the helmets.

Secondly:

Anytime your first series of statements is about "I'm worried about someone drawing a connection between XXXX and <insert a regime of evil here>"?
You're too close to the line, and should back off or just rethink your idea period.

1) The shoulder pads have already been filled, and so rank markers won't fit. That's why I was thinking armbands in the first place. There are chevrons on the arms for sergeants in the cadian kit...but some of mine are armed with the exact same gear as the rest of their squads, and so don't have the chevron arms. Also, the sergeant heads don't have helmets (on the ones I used them for). The rank marker idea includes my platoon and company commanders too, to keep a uniform theme through the army.

And sorry it wasn't obvious, still working on the freehand skills.

That's why I just suggested working on freehanding. It's an important skill.

However, it's important to remember that chevrons weren't the only rank markers, especially during WWII in the American armed forces. Look at the Airborne and Rangers for examples. They'd stencil the soldiers' "numbers"(in the case of Airborne, it was the order in which people were jumping, while the Rangers did something similar for Normandy) on the back of the helmet.

Or hell, look at the Clone Troopers from Star Wars. You can immediately spot specialist troopers and officers, simply by dint of the different color stripes on their helmet's centerline.

2) If I did my cadians similar to WWII Americans, no one would care. But there are parts of the world where the US is the evil empire...

If you painted your Cadians similar to WWII Americans, nobody would care because that's basically the exact same color scheme as the Cadian 8th. It's the iconography that is the problem. I can't think of any distinctly American iconography that would really cause people to take offense, outside of maybe the Confederacy flag.

As other people have stated, I can paint my army however I wish. I want to include something in my army that fits my criteria, and was then drawing up the connection. But I still wanted to do something, I just wanted to do it without offending people. Which is why I asked here. If I really was thinking I was going to push the boundary, yes, I'd step back and think "hmmm, perhaps the swastika isn't a good idea for a rank symbol for my sergeants".

You can paint it however you wish, but when you start asking for criticisms or comments you open yourself up to them. I gave you my take on it. Armbands are stupid, when there's so many other ideas you can draw from.

Are you suggesting that next time I build a chimera, I should step back and think about putting the aquilla on, as I know plenty of people (including myself) who can draw similarities between the Imperium of Man and various fascist regimes through time. And I completely see that as the same argument, I know plenty of people who could draw a connection between spaghetti and genocide, and so could (if they chose to) get offended by spaghetti. People can be offended by things that most people wouldn't think about. And while I thought that red armbands were ok, it's close to something very emotional to some people.

People weren't getting upset by the red armbands. It was the fact that, as I said, from a distance...a red armband, with a white circle and black lines looks remarkably similar to something from a touchy area of history that's still used by certain hate groups in the same context.

As for the aquilla....go ahead and leave them off. As you pointed out, they're your models. The double headed eagle has a long history prior to being optioned by the Nazis and Tzars.

Kanluwen wrote:
However, it's important to remember that chevrons weren't the only rank markers, especially during WWII in the American armed forces. Look at the Airborne and Rangers for examples. They'd stencil the soldiers' "numbers"(in the case of Airborne, it was the order in which people were jumping, while the Rangers did something similar for Normandy) on the back of the helmet.

Or hell, look at the Clone Troopers from Star Wars. You can immediately spot specialist troopers and officers, simply by dint of the different color stripes on their helmet's centerline.

True, which was something I was going to explore with the shoulder pads since I've scraped the armbands.

Kanluwen wrote: You can paint it however you wish, but when you start asking for criticisms or comments you open yourself up to them. I gave you my take on it. Armbands are stupid, when there's so many other ideas you can draw from.

Fair enough. But to be fair, you could used another word besides "stupid". Can't say I particularly care for things I do being called stupid (can't think of many people who can ). But yes, you are totally open to criticize. I asked, you answered.

Kanluwen wrote:
As for the aquilla....go ahead and leave them off. As you pointed out, they're your models. The double headed eagle has a long history prior to being optioned by the Nazis and Tzars.

I know it did. Trust me, I love the aquialla, and it doesn't bother me at all. Just because I can draw the connection doesn't mean I care about that connection. That being said, some people probably find it offensive, yet I'm still going to put it on my vehicle. It's a lot more clear cut and easy to "explain away" those that get offended by it, because it's an eagle (used a lot more widely through than the Swastica ever was or could hope to be), most people find it silly to be offended by it. But make, and people will whine about it...especially on the internet.

There's being sensible about it, and there's not. If I thought that red armbands were not sensible or that I was really crossing that line, I would've stepped back and probably not asked about it here on Dakka. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I didn't feel as though I was close enough to the line for me to get a clear cut answer on whether I should do it, and so I would ask others for help. Although I don't agree with everyone, I do appreciate the help it's giving me in helping find that line. Hopefully in the future, I won't have to consult Dakka on some of the "sketchy decisions" I make when painting my models and minis.

About the only thing I could see to complain about with the armbands it that it looks like there is really not quite enough room for them on the models arm below the shoulder armour. Looks like it is on the elbow or scrunched up above the elbow just to fit. Prehaps instead of an elastic type armband, its might truly be a red band on the uniform itself? Actually sewn in? Just a thought. More of a slight changing of the concept (maybe, since that might have been what you were going for all along and I just didnt catch it!) than doing any actual work or repainting.

As far as the concept, all I can say is welcome to dakka in all it's creativity and idiocy. This thread has certainly run the gamut there.

darkdm wrote:
Thanks!
I completly agree with the ideas for the armbands (and how it looks). If I was starting the army from scratch, that'd probably sculpt them some armbands out of green stuff and go from there. That being said, it's been mostly assembled (save a Russ or two) up to a large number of points and is pastially painted, so I'd rather not have to strip the paint from the models or fiddle with greenstuff on arms attached to torsos.

I really like the red with the gray (part of the initial problem), so I'm going to see what I can do with it on the shoulder pads. It won't be the same, but it should still acheive what I want.

No problem. I like seeing armies that push the envelope. I think it helps to break taboos when people push the envelope slightly, without going too OTT. And I think everyone can agree that the world could use fewer taboos.

Now then, it's unfortunate that you've done all of it. Maybe keep it in mind for a future redo? I really think they're essential steps if you really want to get all 100% out of this army's appearance.

Sazzlefrats wrote:...........if I saw a swatsticka on a model, even on a historically correct model, I would be offended and I would take action (and have). Maybe I'm overly sensitive since I had one painted on my door before. So it may not mean a damn thing to some people, but some people get upset, and there are some people who still promote it; the world has not yet moved on enough.

Maybe you are over sensitive. Counceling could help you to overcome this anger issue. I am being serious here, please do not construe this as me making light. If you are being confrontational to strangers over something once painted on a door, you are engaging in a behavior that could potentially be harmful to your self. It is quite freeing when you decide to stop being a victim/survivor and instead just start to live life. Lets leave this alone for now and instead examine the problem with following such a cause and effect pattern.

If we were to follow the line of thought you are expressing here, any of lifes injustices could be used as an excuse to censor anything that You,I or we find bothersome. Look at it like this:

Should I be able to make people to stop having kids because my house gets toilet papered? No.
Should I be able to make someone from a differing religious background take down a holiday display just because someone of their belief once called me a sinner and said I would burn in hell? No.
Should I protest about every minority with a better job than me, because I lost jobs to less qualified individuals under Affirmative action? No.
And lastly, "Should I hate all Germans because my grandparents I never met died in a camp?"


It really bothers me, this assumed pain of our generation. It even bothers me more when it affects free expression and art. Take Mel Brookes for example(Go ahead, read up on his life.)
They recently honoured Mel Brookes accomplishments at the Kennedy Center. They did a musical montage that was supposed to honor his life long fight that there are no sacred cows in comedy, this included strongly defending his right to use the swastika and impersonating Hitler to make people laugh. You could see the dissappointment on his face when Nathan Lane came out with the politically correct non-swastika armbands for the Producers Musical number "Springtime For Hitler in Germany". You have here a situation where a bunch of politically correct individuals completely miss the point of a mans life work while attempting to honour said work.
The point of this is that the models are like when Mel Brookes wear a swastika in one of his comedies. If you don't like seeing it, don't look. If the guy tries to force you to look then you have a reason to complain.

BTW, for those that don't know. Mel Brookes is a first generation descendant of Polish Jews and he fought in WWII.