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There's a big difference between painting an IG in grey with black, red, and white details vs. converting minis to look like SS troopers.

metallifan wrote:Does anyone get offended by armies made in the image of one of these forces? Not even close. So do what you want, because it's your stuff, and anyone that thinks they have the right to tell you that you can't paint something a certain way needs to catch a bullet.

Well, that's sorted then. Anyone who is offended should be dealt with by physical violence. What are you, some kind of redneck survivalist?

This is the kind of attitude that gives wargamers a bad name. The fact is, some images carry a lot of cultural baggage, and the swastika remains one of the most provocative. If you have a personal craving to paint your Imperial Guard as Liebstandarte bodyguard so you can line them up while listening to the Panzerlied, then do it in the privacy of your own home (perhaps with other like-minded individuals). But if you bring them to a store or tournament, don't be surprised if you get a negative reaction from people who just may have lost a relative in a death camp or may be a little less desensitived that you It's not a matter of your God-given right to say anything you like, no matte how crass and stupid, or historical relativism (everyone killed people so anything is okay). It's a matter of recognising that there is a line between referencing historical forces and just being offensive.

I think the dividing line is minis that replicate (say) the SS look and minis which are inspired by it. Black and red uniforms - no problem. 'Ambush' schemes on your tanks and troops in camouflaged smocks - fine. Just stay away from swastikas. Posing them giving the Nazi salute is probably also a bad idea. The same applies to excessive amounts of 'anatomical correctness' on models, or sexually explicit poses. You're just asking for trouble (a lot of kids play this game), and what does it prove? You can suggest that your Dark Eldar or whatever are depraved without having to spell it out in detail.

Tailgunner wrote:This is the kind of attitude that gives wargamers a bad name. The fact is, some images carry a lot of cultural baggage, and the swastika remains one of the most provocative. If you have a personal craving to paint your Imperial Guard as Liebstandarte bodyguard so you can line them up while listening to the Panzerlied, then do it in the privacy of your own home (perhaps with other like-minded individuals). But if you bring them to a store or tournament, don't be surprised if you get a negative reaction from people who just may have lost a relative in a death camp or may be a little less desensitived that you It's not a matter of your God-given right to say anything you like, no matte how crass and stupid, or historical relativism (everyone killed people so anything is okay). It's a matter of recognising that there is a line between referencing historical forces and just being offensive.

I think the dividing line is minis that replicate (say) the SS look and minis which are inspired by it. Black and red uniforms - no problem. 'Ambush' schemes on your tanks and troops in camouflaged smocks - fine. Just stay away from swastikas. Posing them giving the Nazi salute is probably also a bad idea. The same applies to excessive amounts of 'anatomical correctness' on models, or sexually explicit poses. You're just asking for trouble (a lot of kids play this game), and what does it prove? You can suggest that your Dark Eldar or whatever are depraved without having to spell it out in detail.

Would you apply the same rules to a Soviet themed army with gulag prisoners as the penal legion?

Have yet to use my Wyches as they are too close to the knuckle. But then a lot of the kids that will be in the library where the club plays are aged 8-12 and I reckon in that context the figures are inappriopriate.

The issue of the arm bands would be different.
I know you are not using swastikas on the arm bands, but imho it would not be appropriate as there is no historical justification.

However if you were playing with a SS Panzer Division, maybe. Then again good luck if you can paint the swastika on a 1/144th scale armband!
Red, black and white arm bands are a good idea which could be used to indicate the more dogmatic aspects of the Imperium.

Augustus,
Spot on mate. Some of the nose art in the Gulf War is risque to say the least, but there was a modicum of fabric on the pin-ups!
There are some very raunchy examples of WW2 nose art
And there is at least one example of pornographic work on a Vietnam F-105 Thud that I blush to even think of

I love the irony of using fascist imagery to promote free speech.
It's almost like a big middle finger in the faces of the Nazis.
Besides, as others have said, it is your army, you can do whatever you want with it- within reason, of course.

Id only take issue with them for the same reason I hate it when people make Angry marine armies, or hello kitty armies, or space marines modelled after Jedi Knight armies, or imperial guard as storm trooper armies.

You"re ruining my immersement of the game by not following the fluff guidelines.

But if you just adoped a colour scheme but used imperial eagles and stuff, that'd be fine by me

Tailgunner wrote:
Well, that's sorted then. Anyone who is offended should be dealt with by physical violence. What are you, some kind of redneck survivalist?

This is the kind of attitude that gives wargamers a bad name. The fact is, some images carry a lot of cultural baggage, and the swastika remains one of the most provocative. If you have a personal craving to paint your Imperial Guard as Liebstandarte bodyguard so you can line them up while listening to the Panzerlied, then do it in the privacy of your own home (perhaps with other like-minded individuals). But if you bring them to a store or tournament, don't be surprised if you get a negative reaction from people who just may have lost a relative in a death camp or may be a little less desensitived that you It's not a matter of your God-given right to say anything you like, no matte how crass and stupid, or historical relativism (everyone killed people so anything is okay). It's a matter of recognising that there is a line between referencing historical forces and just being offensive.

I think the dividing line is minis that replicate (say) the SS look and minis which are inspired by it. Black and red uniforms - no problem. 'Ambush' schemes on your tanks and troops in camouflaged smocks - fine. Just stay away from swastikas. Posing them giving the Nazi salute is probably also a bad idea. The same applies to excessive amounts of 'anatomical correctness' on models, or sexually explicit poses. You're just asking for trouble (a lot of kids play this game), and what does it prove? You can suggest that your Dark Eldar or whatever are depraved without having to spell it out in detail.

I have a feeling that you don't like Flames of war then. I don't get it people play as evil vampire's, sadistic demon worshiping fanatics but oh man hes got a swastika on a model that guy must be in a Nazi supporter! Maybe he too likes to play as the bad guys but prefers Imperial guard armies?

darkdm wrote:I'm a huge histroy buff as well, and feel the same way. Which is why I want to do it.

That aside, I'm not asking in particular about my army. I'm using it as an example. I want to what would happen if you ran into an army similar to what I was talking about or "worse".

Here is where I take issue- you're intentionally setting up this discussion in the context of your army being "bad"- by your own phrasing, "what would happen if you ran into an army similar to what I was talking about or "worse"". This is setting yourself up for negative comments.

This is also different from what you said your reason for choosing these colors was in the original post:

darkdm wrote:My dilema is that I'm working on an IG army, already painted with greys and whitewashed skin, and am thinking about adding arm bands to denote rank on some of the models. The problem is that red, white, and black are the colors I'm considering because they offer a nice contrast to the grey. I would have a red arm band, with a white stripe in the middle wide enough to fit a black rank symbol. I wonder if that's going too far.

I played 40k in 3rd edition, and I played black templars, using a lot of red. So my colors were black, white, and red. You can paint an army with these colors, and have no problems whatsoever. However, you can also intentionally "push the envelope" by getting close to painful (for many) imagery and/or themes. A Nazi theme would be prime among these. Some people may have no problem with this, as people have made good points here about. However, many will.

I personally don't want to see that kind of imagery in my games. I feel differently if I'm intentionally playing a historical game, such as Axis and Allies or Flames of War. But even then, I don't really want to see swastikas- there's just too much pain attached to the image for me.

That's my personal opinion, and it would make me uncomfortable. However, I know many others feel that way, too. Again, you set this discussion up painting your army theme in a bad light already, even just the title "When minis go too far...". Imho, if you look at your army and think "It's gone too far", then it's time to pull back a bit and look at your reason for doing it, and if it is justified, or if there's a better way to go about it.

I know you said you wanted a broader discussions, but this has been discussed ad nauseum, and for me it's easier to talk in specifics, as each case is different.

Just my $0.02

Here we are again.

The only thing I would stay away from is swastikas and modeling your minis goose stepping with the third reich salute. I think even the SS would be ok on your minis.

No one complains about WWII Russian looking figures and they killed more people than the Germans in WWII. I mean heck we even have Commissars in the game for that matter.

I would not be angered at this. Heck i would play say that your trying to re-create some history. As long as your not extrmely tasteless.

However I had this idea a while back myself. I was going to do some 500 Points by making Helghast (yes the Killzone 2 kind) themed space marines. Was kinda scared becuse they are like space nazis in a way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helghast

To be perfectly honest, I’m glad nobody has freaked out on this thread. Actually makes me happy to see that this is issue can be handled maturely. From what I’ve seen, most people think it’s ok and/or I should tell people who don’t like it to go stick it somewhere. My problem with that is that is I’m asking here because I do care what other people think.

As a reiteration, it’s not a Nazi themed army. The guardsmen are painted with a light grey for the fatigues and a darker grey, almost black, for the flak armor. The idea is to put red/white arm bands on guys to help denote rank on some guys. The symbol on the arm band would be black, but it’d be the symbol of rank corresponding to that particular model. Turns out, my phone hates my computer and doesn’t transfer the (crappy) pictures, so when I have access to a camera, I’ll put up some pictures.

It’s not deliberately meant to be Nazi-like, it’s just that red and white to great job with contrast on my models. The arm bands might look something like this (a la paint, sorry about the quality):

niceguyteddy wrote:No one complains about WWII Russian looking figures and they killed more people than the Germans in WWII. I mean heck we even have Commissars in the game for that matter.

While that's probably true, it's really not a fair comparison, teddy. What gets people's ire up about the Nazis is all of the horrible atrocities associated with concentration camps and basically genocide committed against a specific group of people that was racially motivated.

It's hard to separate those ideals from the army itself- which was pretty "cool" from a historical point of view in many ways- and I think that's why people are so bothered by it. I know that's what it is for me, and is why I don't mind playing a game like Axis and Allies where I'm looking at the overall war and strategy involved, but would be bothered by a lot of the Nazi imagery if it was done very realistically.

It's obviously a touchy subject, and something that's going to vary depending on who you play with/against, and also greatly on how you present your army and theme. Once again, starting out with "when minis go too far..." is just asking for someone to take offense or to take it the wrong way, imho.

Edit: I have no problem with the image above, although if you were worried about it, the suggestion earlier in the thread to use a blue instead of the black would pretty much make the issue go away completely. Red arm bands are nothing a single army had a monopoly on, although the overall effect is getting a bit close. A dark blue would remedy all such comparisons, though!

RiTides wrote:While that's probably true, it's really not a fair comparison, teddy. What gets people's ire up about the Nazis is all of the horrible atrocities associated with concentration camps and basically genocide committed against a specific group of people that was racially motivated.

It's hard to separate those ideals from the army itself- which was pretty "cool" from a historical point of view in many ways- and I think that's why people are so bothered by it. I know that's what it is for me, and is why I don't mind playing a game like Axis and Allies where I'm looking at the overall war and strategy involved, but would be bothered by a lot of the Nazi imagery if it was done very realistically.

It's obviously a touchy subject, and something that's going to vary depending on who you play with/against, and also greatly on how you present your army and theme. Once again, starting out with "when minis go too far..." is just asking for someone to take offense or to take it the wrong way, imho.

Yet no one has commented on my concept of a soviet themed army using Gulag prisoners(Gulags being responsible for as many deaths as their german cousins the concentration camp) as my penal legion.

I guess they're not as infamous, focusedfire- history is not my strong suit, but I'd never heard of them, so it didn't affect me as I had no idea what they are!

Being Jewish, I could care less, but I've met people that seem to care about gak they don't know two gaks about, and as if they had a spiky rock in their arse all the god damn time.

TBH, I think it would be fine if you avoided any black on the armband, then nobody could say gak.

Lord of battles wrote:THEIR GOD DAMN MINIATURES!

QTF they are just minis.

Stalins purges and his use of Gulags, were right up there with people displaced by the second World War as for reasons why so many russian Jews headed to the HolyLand after WWII.

Russians will quote war casualties of 20 million in WWII, an indeterminate number of which were work camp fatalities.

When The soviets took poland and eastern europe back from the germans they took over the conctration camps and turned some of them into Gulags.

Stalins Gulags were reputed to have caused between 1.5 million(Publicly announced numbers from the kremlin) and 20 million(Estimations based upon another questionable source) deaths. Dissidents, ethnic minorities and peasants were the prime target to send to these work camps.

If I were to guess at the actual I'd figure the number is somewhere in the middle which puts Stalin on close to an equal footing with Hitler. The main difference is that Stalin kept them alive a little longer in a place much colder.

BTW, The Gulags are well know but the numbers are still thought to be suppressed to this day.

I bring this up because there have been other leaders that would be considered just as evil and represented ideologies just as bad as Nazi Germanies but people don't know of them.

Why?

You know, what "Too Far" is, is subjective to everyone.
Yes, there is going to be at least one guy with a stick up his ass saying "YER IG R NAZI'S DON'T YOU KNOW HOW EVILBAD THEY WERE." So a guy makes his mini's look like Nazi's. The Nazi's were innocent children prancing in the meadow holding hands with suspiciously non-ethnic minorities while a rainbow flies out of everyones ass compared to what the Imperium does for gak and giggles. Personally, as long as your army was well modelled and painted, I'd be delighted to play a game against it. But if you plop down a Chaos Daemons Army where your Daemonettes are 6' genitals and your Bloodthirster is a caricature of a Black man eating fried chicken while stepping on your Nurglings modified to look like Obese caricatured Jews? I might have a bit of a problem, as in the kind where I need to smash each and every one of your miniatures as quickly as I can.

@Focusfire...Man, what you said way earlier in this thread about having a Nazi themed army, and then loosing with it had my in stitches!!!

On the idea of going for a soviet style theme IG army...I reckon that would look great, I've always liked the look of them. If Valhallans were in plastic I'd use them to do the same thing!

Honestly dude looking at the arm band it doesn't look bad at all, if anyone gets offended by that they are just babies.

Besides you could just paint them blue and say they are the UN, they never do anything bad...

Doh!

Jihadnik wrote:Besides you could just paint them blue and say they are the UN, they never do anything bad...

Doh!

Yeah, they'd actually have to be proactive about something to fail miserably at it.

Here's a simple test, as I recall, displaying a swatstika is illegal in Germany. If you feel that you could display your army in Germany and not get in trouble, then who's to complain. Since you feel self conscience, you are clearly past your comfort level, so please paint some other colors, ice blue is a very nice contrast to cadian colors, try that.

BTW I did meet someone with a swatstika army, he never played it to my knowledge (worried about the reaction) and eventually painted over the emblems.

darkdm wrote:lude

lewd

darkdm wrote:But these have been produced by a professional grade company and can risk lawsuits and/or loss of business. So what happens when Average Joe decides he wants to model and paint an IG army to look nearly identical to SS Panzer troops from WWII? Or a mural of a naked woman on a Rhino? Or perhaps some nudie Zombies for his Vampire Counts? And for no other reason than they enjoy the way the models will look.

You would need to check your local law - some countries forbid the display of anything relating to the nazi regime, likewise, some states forbid the depiction of nipples in areas that minors can access.

@OP: they're your minis, and you can do what you like.

That said, IMO, you're deliberately, and unnecessarily, treading on Nazi ground with your color and scheme choices as described in your post.

To my mind, it seems what you're really asking is whether people would be cool if you were to field a Early War Nazi German homage army.

At tabletop distances, those armbands are going to look *exactly* like Nazi swastika armbands, and you know it. If I have to get right up to the model to see that the rank insignia is actually a Neo-Nazi pseudo-swastika, that's simply not cool.

When GW takes pains to protest that they're not historicals, nor linked to Real World religion / history, then it's simply not necessary.

If you really must field Nazis, then just play a Waffen SS force Flames and do so honestly and openly. Don't be all coy and pretend that isn't what you're actually doing.


If you don't need to field Nazis, then a palette swap is in order. Bright yellow or orange armbands are just as effectively eye-catching on grey. Or you can swap the uniform from grey to olive drab green. Or, you can move away from Nazi-style armbands to use contrasting shoulderpads or helmets, like most IG players do.

Given the sheer infinite variety of non-Nazi options out there, deliberately going out of your way to ape the Nazi German army design and colors cannot be interpreted as anything but a homage.


Yes, I know this probably isn't the answer you wanted to hear. Yes, I know it's toy soldiers. Nevertheless, you asked the question, and this is my answer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luthon1234 wrote:I have a feeling that you don't like Flames of war then. I don't get it people play as evil vampire's, sadistic demon worshiping fanatics but oh man hes got a swastika on a model that guy must be in a Nazi supporter!

The difference is that a Swastika on a Flames model is historically accurate, whereas in 40k, it's simply gratuitous.

Putting a RL-historical swastika on a 40k model is really no different than painting a giant "FUC* YOU" on it.

Yes, they're your models, and you can do offensive things with them.

Doesn't mean that you should, or that they're fit for general public play.

But it depends on what fluff you wish to bring to your army
As was mention there is a Nazi like company of IG's and it would emphasise the political flavour to use red, white and black.

Genocide is commited by the Imperium on those who they say don't follow their ideology. They are supposed to be the good guys.

That armband would be fine imho. But unless you wish to portray a company that has dubious ideologies I would do as Ritides says and get rid of the red. The colours are deeply associated with Fascism and the Nazis in particular.

Has anyone suggested trying to check out DKoK colour schemes and heraldry, rank insignias etc?

Should have thought of this last night when I posted rather than get sucked in.

I dont know if this was previously stated, but, consider the fact that historical models. World War 2 models to be exact, are entirely accurate representations of the SS, Nazi, and even Hitler. These companies produce these not only in an effort to resemble historical figures and times, but to be painted and displayed. I love doing German armor from time to time, have quite a lot of tanks. I was always a bit hesitant of doing a nazi flag to hand over some, but it is HISTORICALLY accurate.

In my opinion Warhammer is no different, especially if your not doing any Nazi symbolism.

Some may be offended, but then they would have to be offended by entire corporations for producing the real german officers and nazi regime in 1/35 scale. Companies like Verlinden, Tamyia, Dragon, jaguar. HUGE corporations that have been around longer than even GW.

As mentinoed before in this tread, its you stuff. Do what you please, and ask other people who have issues with that to frakk of. After all its minis, not real humans

Very few if any companies will actually produce kits with swastikas afaik. Certainly don't for aircraft. One of the main reasons being export to Europe. In Germany the display of that cross is illegal unless in a specifically historical context. iirc, for some reason, display on models doesn't count as histoical context.