Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In the past, there have been minis that have been labeled as rude, crude, and even lewd. Most of these models have been done away with for those reasons (the ones I recall right now are Demonettes).

But these have been produced by a professional grade company and can risk lawsuits and/or loss of business. So what happens when Average Joe decides he wants to model and paint an IG army to look nearly identical to SS Panzer troops from WWII? Or a mural of a naked woman on a Rhino? Or perhaps some nudie Zombies for his Vampire Counts? And for no other reason than they enjoy the way the models will look.

My dilema is that I'm working on an IG army, already painted with greys and whitewashed skin, and am thinking about adding arm bands to denote rank on some of the models. The problem is that red, white, and black are the colors I'm considering because they offer a nice contrast to the grey. I would have a red arm band, with a white stripe in the middle wide enough to fit a black rank symbol. I wonder if that's going too far.

I think it's safe to assume that I can bring it to my FLGS if everyone I play against there thinks it's fine. But if I take it to a tournament...

So what I'm asking Dakka:
>When is someone going to far with their conversions/painting?
>If you encountered an army that fits the bill above, what would you do at a tournament?

EDIT:
Shoulder pad pics on page 7. I'm wondering if anyone still thinks that the shoulder pads or fatigue trim shown in the pictures are still to close to Nazi symbols.

It really depends on the person. Some people will take particular offense to things like that, so I wouldn't reccommend it at a tournament.

I don't think it'd cause a lot of trouble, I just wouldn't think of it as a keen idea.

Then again, all you've done, really, is paint a red band on the sleeve - if you avoid painting complimentary swastikas to it, and deliberately paint something else, I can't see it being an issue.

hope this helps,
Mav.

Are you referring to painting a symbol that is similar to the Nazi Swastika? If so, that would obviously be in bad taste. Personally, I think having a red arm band, with a white background and black logo, might be getting a little too close to the line to reminding some people of Nazi imagery. Especially if doing this causes you to post up a thread titled "When minis go too far"! Then yes, I think it's likely that you're straying across that line... but it's hard to say without seeing a pic of what you have in mind.

I wouldn't mind. It's just a mini after all.

RiTides wrote:Are you referring to painting a symbol that is similar to the Nazi Swastika? If so, that would obviously be in bad taste.

I'll post a picture of what I'm thinking about when I'm able (a few hours...). It's not a swastica, as the black I would be putting in would be symbols of rank literally taken from the modern american army. Also, the white area would be larger.

Maverick wrote:It really depends on the person. Some people will take particular offense to things like that, so I wouldn't reccommend it at a tournament.

I don't think it'd cause a lot of trouble, I just wouldn't think of it as a keen idea.

My problem is that IG is my ONLY army at the moment. So if I want to go to a tournament, it'd be what I take.

And I think the arm bands would add a lot more character to a usually bland out-of-the-box-cadian force.

Edit:
DISCLAIMER!!!
Before someone comes and accuses me of being a Nazi for what I want to do with my army, I want to be known that I hate the ideology behind the Nazi party and dissapprove of EVERYTHING they did.

If it looks good, paint it. If anyone complains, slap 'em.

I'm not saying your army is Nazi themed, it sounds like you are simply worried that your colours are the same as the Nazi colours.

If that is a worry, you could change the black to blue and there would be no cause for complaints.

To other posters, whatever your personal feelings, you need to be aware that whenever someone makes a Nazi or Nazi-alike themed army, it always causes controversy and anger from a significant number of players.

There's not point taking an attitude about this because it is a widespread feeling with a lot of support.

For the first question I really don't know, as it's determined on a case by case basis for me.

As for the second question I'd likely shake your hand for not bowing to fear. It's a part of history, and if you want to build an IG force in homage to the Wehrmacht or Schutzstaffel then I would be impressed. Hell, even if you did it simply because you enjoy the aesthetics I wouldn't mind. If you did it to promote race hate or for some other foolish reason I certainly would be bothered, but then again I'd be offended by you and not your army.

Germany has much to be ashamed of during the 30's and 40's, but no group in existence doesn't have shameful parts to its history. So as long as you're not extolling those negative virtues I'd be impressed by your maturity. People are far too ignorant when it comes to symbolism, especially when dealing with NSDAP symbolism. It's painfully ironic the blind hate that gets directed towards a runic marking. Especially a runic marking which has many more meanings than being the symbol emblazoned upon the Blood Flag.

I literally could go on for pages about this, as a student of history I find such censorship painfully ironic and disturbing. But I will stop before I start rambling too much. In short though, I'd have no issue with it as long as it wasn't some outward expression of your race hate or something equally bigoted.

I cant say it would be bad. Look at all the games were you play germans, Flames of War, War at Sea, Axis and Allies, if a game and for fun. People always also like to point out that the "bad" guys always get the good toys ! so go for it if it looks kool cant see it being a problem.

Neconilis wrote:

As for the second question I'd likely shake your hand for not bowing to fear. It's a part of history, and if you want to build an IG force in homage to the Wehrmacht or Schutzstaffel then I would be impressed. Hell, even if you did it simply because you enjoy the aesthetics I wouldn't mind. If you did it to promote race hate or for some other foolish reason I certainly would be bothered, but then again I'd be offended by you and not your army.

...

I literally could go on for pages about this, as a student of history I find such censorship painfully ironic and disturbing. But I will stop before I start rambling too much. In short though, I'd have no issue with it as long as it wasn't some outward expression of your race hate or something equally bigoted.

I'm a huge histroy buff as well, and feel the same way. Which is why I want to do it.

That aside, I'm not asking in particular about my army. I'm using it as an example. I want to what would happen if you ran into an army similar to what I was talking about or "worse".

My DIY chapter is black, red and white and I've never been called on it and have never oven thought about it. I'm also not a Nazi. Those colors look good together, man. Let's take them back!

There's a reason the Nazis chose those colors. They're really strong and very eye-catching. As evil as the Third Reich was, they were snazzy dressers and they knew it. This kind of thing comes up a lot, and it causes a lot of people to get up in arm. Personally, I don't really mind it if it fits into the right context and doesn't go too far.

For instance, I've seen Imperial Guard armies painted up in greys and black with the Iron Cross emblazoned on all their vehicles. That's not too bad. It's not like you're modeling Slaughterhouse Five. Just keep in mind when it goes too far. Another example would be the aforementioned murals on vehicles. If done tastefully, it can be alright. After all, a pin-up painted on the side of a Valkyrie is right at home. Meanwhile, a graphic mural of anime girls getting raped by tentacles on the roof of your rhino is not. I've seen both multiple times.

Just don't be an idiot about this kind of thing and you'll be fine. You have enough common sense to question it thus far, and definitely enough to keep yourself from painting swastikas on all your tanks.

THEIR GOD DAMN MINIATURES!

Arm bands?

Signifying rank?

Using red black and white?

No Nazi symbology?

If you really need confirmation that you are not a 'bad man' then just paint up a test mini and post it on here.

As it is there are two ways to think about this:

1) If you are worried that your armies theme will be misconstrued then it is probable that they will be - rethink the colour scheme or maybe go with two out of the three colours.

Or

2) You need to chill out and stop making your own 'monster under the bed'. Context is everything and I doubt that people you are gaming with will make any connection unless you point out by stating loudly ' I DIDNT MAKE A NAZI THEMED ARMY'.

I think it depends on the context: A naked woman on the side of a tank isn't as bad as squads of troops painted in SS-esque schemes. Because of this I think you would have to judge this based upon the level of impact it has.

However, it just has to be said that: they're toy soldiers. There are many other wargames such as Flames of War, which involve actual Nazi models. I see no-one getting upset with these because they are simply a historical context. You are re-creating a piece of history, not trying to embellish it. If you were painting them as a way of making a statement, whereas you painted things referring to Nazi beliefs, then yes that would be considered offensive, but from what you've put forward, the only person who would really be offended by that would be a do-gooder who needs to get their priorities right.

Unless you wright "HITLER 4 LIFE" on one of your tanks I wouldent care

At this juncture, I'd like to point out I was using my army as an example. I'm trying to get a broader view of the issue rather than me specifically.

Maybe try different colours, blues or greens instead of red.

We have a guy at my LGS that has a painted SS armored company army. Looks fantastic and no ones ever complained about it. And I use to have a Daemon army and no one complained about that either and one guy has a KISS Dark Eldar army and no one has complained about that either.

My personal opinion is that you should paint what you want, if you know there's a lot of kids at your store obviously don't paint nude models in your gaming army. You shouldn't have to go to your LGS or some online forum and ask "is it ok if I paint my army like this..." but do keep in mind of stuff like recent events or nudity. It's been how many years since Nazi Germany, people who are complaining about something like that is just complaining to be an ass.

I wouldn't mind too much. I probably would mind if you started goose stepping everytime you went to move your models. haha

I have a buddy who actually painted up a lot of Nazi and SS symbols on his Stormblade themed Cygnar army. It actually fit considering the fluff behind the army. I had no problem with it.

Paint them up as full SS Panzer,

Where a long wool coat and carry them in in a black brief case or leather satchel,

After you pull them out pull of your hat and put on your yamika.

Proceed to intentionally lose while muttering take that you bas***ds.(Oh did, I forget the part where you have the beard ans sidelocks of an orthodox rabbi.)


Seriously, it is no problem. As long as the paint job looks good.

PS- I dont want to hear complaints from any of you when I finally make an IG army that is done up like Post WWII Soviet T-34's and my penal legions are painted as Gulag prisoners,....Speaking of which anyone know a source for red stars?

There was a thread about this awhile ago about a absolutely stunning IG army that was modeled after Germans during WWII.

My stance is do it. Yes the nazi's "final solution" gave us an understanding of man's inhumanity to his fellow man but we are talking about little plastic men and tanks here.

Now I can see that if you model stormtroopers throwing people with stars on their chests into a furnace and call it a hellhound.... that might offend a few people. But in all honesty I would give your credit for having such a big pair of balls.

When it comes down to it....Model naked german zombies that are riding a giant penis tank thats draging naked half dead men women and children behind it.

Its palstic toys and its also form of art..... and trust me i have seen stuff way worse then penis furnace tank that was called a masterpiece cause it was "art"

BTW I know I went a little exterme there but I was just trying to make a point

My Inquisition army (DH) has large RED banners for their vehicles. These large RED banners have large WHITE circles in the middle of them, and inside of them, they have a "funny looking cross" painted in black. The stormtroopers are done up in grey and black uniforms.

Do they look like Nazis? Only from across the room if you are nearsighted and old. From 5 feet away, you can clearly make out the "funny looking cross" is actually the Stylised Capital 'I' of the Inquisition faction (with its three crossbars).

I've got two jewish kids in my club (and their mum) and none of them have ever commented (in public) about them. Besides, Red, white and black is one of the schemes used in the book.

Unless you are painting swastikas everywhere and putting other phrases around the vehicles and iconography, no-one should care

Like putting "The final solution" on a Deathstrike missile launcher tank, or "Work will set you free" on a penal battalion pennant.

chromedog wrote: or "Arbeit macht frei" on a penal battalion pennant.

Fixed that for you

Do it. They're your minis. It's your property.

Khornholio wrote:Do it. They're your minis. It's your property.

+1

If someone else doesn't like it, tell them to

A) Get over it

B) Feth off

or C) Offer to remove their eyes with a pair of pliers.


They're your plastic toy soldiers. Do what you bloody well please. If the resemblance to the Waffen SS offends someone, they need to grow a pair. Yea, they were evil. Yea, they killed many, many innocent people. But so did the Romans, Crusaders, Soviets, Chinese, Americans (Hey, ya nuked two large cities. That IS pretty cold )

Does anyone get offended by armies made in the image of one of these forces? Not even close. So do what you want, because it's your stuff, and anyone that thinks they have the right to tell you that you can't paint something a certain way needs to catch a bullet.


Hell, they still make Nazi-themed grey army men. I used to have a bunch when I was little. I even remember they're what I first practiced painting on!

It seems to me that everyone thinks that it's that players choice to paint their army however they feel. And I agree, weather you have SS guard of hello Kitty daemons it's that players army and if people get offended it's their problem, everyone has a right to free speech. As for pin up girls that is part of military history ever since there has been armor people have painted images of heraldry to inspiring murals to frightening ones. Put pin up girls on tanks, every army in history that had a tank had at least one with an almost naked lady on it. I can't even think of WWII without thinking of a sexy lady on a B17 or Lancaster. I don't think you can make a mini go too far without doing something completely obnoxious such as the Hell Hound mentioned above.

I would not see any problem whatsoever with even painting up your guard as full on swastika toting SS. The Empire isn't really a nice place to live. It is ruled over by a fascist dictator (Emperor) and a vast iron fisted buerocracy. I think drawing a comparison between the Imperium of Man and the Nazi Empire isn't that big of a jump. Both empires practice the extermination of those they deem unfit. Both use massive propaganda and fear tactics to keep their citizenry in line.

I say go for it. Just be prepared for a few narrow minded people to be offended.

As far as nudity goes, I guess as long as you are not playing around young kids you should be okay. My father is an artist who specialized in WWII aircraft and you'd be suprised at some of the stuff those guys painted on their planes.

I'm glad to see how much this forum is maturing, I remember a thread like this a while back. The level of PC Nazi nerdrage was nuaseating.

Remember, you started this thread and asked our opinion. This means that we get to see pictures when you get the time.

Black white and grey on an IG army will be beautiful if painted well.

Interesting topic. I personaly know of a beautifully painted IG army done up in WWII German camo and all te tanks modified to look like the real thing. This guy also has a couple of Steel Legion squads done up all in black and i have never herd a bad word about this army. (the guy is also a historical model maker and does some superb models in larger scales).

I have seen several Valkries and other flying models painted up with 'nose art' and i also dont have a problem with them.

Coming from a historical side i have several model aircraft with swastickas painted on them and i have never once had a bad comment about them. I do know they are illiegal to be worn of aircraft flying in Germany though and possibly a few other countries.

In terms of gaming i realy am not botherd, go ahead and paint swashstickas on them, at the end of they day the symbol has been around alot longer than the Germans, i dont know exactly how long but i believe its an ancient religios symbol and the Finnish have used it for a long time. My problem comes with the Nazi idealogy, if you where going down that route id have a problem. The important thing to remember is the world has moved on, we have hopefully learnt lessons from what happened and dont forget it wasnt only the Germans who commited atrocities, if you dont believe be go and google the fire bombing of Dresden.

And on that note before i get to into history i will end this post.