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hemingway wrote:By that same token, if someone is making scratch builds because they say they can't afford to buy the models, well, I simply can't believe that. If you can spend 4 hours a day on a scratch build, that's time you could be working for money and buying those same models. They're building scratch because they are lazy, or would rather be making scratch models, or have other responsibilities that take priority over being at work.

Life doesn't work like that. Most people work say 9-5 and all their money goes on essentials and important things. Of course scratchbuilding can be seen as a cheaper alternative. The scratchbuilding takes place in evenings and weekends and can be spread out over longer periods of time. What you suggest is that if they are scratchbuilding to save money they should instead use those extra hours to get a second job which is wrong-headed in many ways. Firstly working a second job would kill some people, you need a break to do you own stuff in your own time, it takes people out of their home and away from family, and a lot of full time jobs stipulate that you can't work a second job because they rightly believe that working extra hours elsewhere impacts your productivity on their first job. Anyway, plenty of people enjoy scratch building, it's not a chore and it it saves money even better. By that logic you could question why someone would paint their own figures if they could use that time to get a job and get them commission painted.

What a mud pitchin fight this have become.

Must admit i only read about 1 and a half page, before i decided the following pages wouldnt change much, so i just skipped ahead to give my 2 cents on the matter.

Paper or plastic, i dont care. Im in for the game, and the social side of playing with my friends or meeting new people, and most of all: Having FUN.

For me, its more important to have a good opponent, than that your opponent have a good looking army. The wrong opponent can completely ruin a game, and alot more than a paper tank or proxie!

Stop being snobs, and start having fun. You might miss out on the best game of your life, because you refuse to play a guy who didnt have the money for the right model.

What if you were to have a game with the guy who built the Tau Manta from foam, wood and cardboard. Would you refuse just because he didnt use the insane amount of money it costs? I certainly would not!

Just because you dont have the right gear, it doesnt mean you cant enjoy the game... And you are talking about a kid for crying out loud. A KID!

I certainly had fun when i was playing football with a couple of kids in Kosovo, who didnt have anything else to play with than an empty water bottle, and ran around in flip flops and rubber boots. But mayby i should just have told the poor kids, i didnt want to play them, because they didnt have "the right gear" ?? Nonsense!

Lay down your golden spoon, and start having some fun.

And thats an order

RiTides wrote:
Side "for"- Incredible "For Sale sign" conversion tank (see above) is a legitimate scratch-build and should be accepted by everyone

I think we start to get our wires crossed and when you say "Don't use a pepsi can for a drop pod" I hear "That incredible scratch-build is illegitimate".

In the end, most of us probably agree more than it seems here. Sometimes the "in theory" part of threads like this tends to polarize people, when in the end I've noticed that most people in person have the same standards.

Agreed. Someone who crams together a tank from construction paper and white glue or tape is not cool. Scratch built stuff like the tanks shown/mentioned above is extremely cool. I love doing conversions and Ill give huge credit to people who can whip stuff up from sheet plastic and some random bits.


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Samus_aran115 wrote:]

agnosto wrote:So... nobody would like this?

that's pretty hawt right there. I might be okay with it. A little more work and it would be pretty cool

Bonus points if its got foam in it to transport some figs.


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loki old fart wrote:

vitki wrote:

Herohammernostalgia wrote:And besides, it would be an accomplishment in itself to have the dog move appropriately (by the game rules) when it's his/her owner's turn and remain motionless when it's the opponents

Simple, it's a flying object, just suspend it from the celing...

Then all you'd have to worry about is drool

And hope he dosent pee on you

That would be the forward phaser bank. My worry would be the aft torpedoes...

Definitely a regional thing then. Never seen one. Then again, I would expect it's not the type of thing you see brought to a tournament or gaming store, in a lot of cases.

Hey Mikhaila
Are the kids in your avatar pic proxying Halloween Pumpkins as Squigs?

Someone mention pumpkins?



my pumpkin last year

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Hey Mikhaila
Are the kids in your avatar pic proxying Halloween Pumpkins as Squigs?

That is definitely a good idea. Will do that this year.

They do help me paint squigs.)

I can see why you have a lot of squigs to paint, judging by the ones being borrowed by Ludwig at the last tourney! (Although lots of those already had paint)

This thread caught my attention, "Paper Tanks". You can see many great built of the Warhammer genre over at Zealot, Papermodelers and paperhammer40k. You will be mesmerized by the ingenuity of the paper modeler. Many of them follow the templates of the GW. I am into scratch building and have made GW version models and many of my own design. When I used to play the game I would inform my opponents that some of my stuff was made out of paper cardstock. I never had a problem with my models but I would never use them in a sanctioned games but I would show them off to others as scratched built. Here at DakkaDakka I have a thread "Warhammer Armor and thing II" and there, are some of my creations. My most recent ones are a Catachan scout vehicle and a water carft LCP. I do enjoy the build and I do it for the enjoyment of the hobby, and sometimes because I see something and I say "I can do that" and so I do it. If you do not wish to play against my army, I take no offense, somebody else will.

Here are a couple photos of my paper builds for your amusement.

Augustus wrote:

sworth9411 wrote:So lately I have seen a rising trend in making paper tanks based on GW designs and while I am all for scratch building this trend is starting to piss me off something fierce.....
t......
I know I cant be the only only one who hates this type of attitude

You are not the only one.

For folks that like paper that much, and don;t have the resources to play Warhammer, there are always card and role playing games.

I once berated an Ork player for using plastic fire trucks from the dollar store for his Ork trucks. Sometimes I refuse to play people with unpainted armies of REAL GW Tanks! If you made yours out of paper, I wouldn't even acknowledge you are a player at all. If I saw people trying to play with paper tanks in a store, I'd be hard pressed not to say something abrasive, and at least say," You should really buy a tank like that here".

I don't care if 'kids' are 'trying' anyone who can't afford the basic gear, get out, play in your own house, and come back when you have the means.

Also, to be explicit, making a cheap paper proxy is not a scratch build.

+1, exactly.

Hobbies are not a necessity. If you cannot afford it, return when you can or play at home.

If I invest in the appropriate models to represent and actually base and paint mine... and you arrive with LEGO or your space marines glued to bases, without arms even...

Howard A Treesong wrote:

hemingway wrote:By that same token, if someone is making scratch builds because they say they can't afford to buy the models, well, I simply can't believe that. If you can spend 4 hours a day on a scratch build, that's time you could be working for money and buying those same models. They're building scratch because they are lazy, or would rather be making scratch models, or have other responsibilities that take priority over being at work.

Life doesn't work like that. Most people work say 9-5 and all their money goes on essentials and important things. Of course scratchbuilding can be seen as a cheaper alternative. The scratchbuilding takes place in evenings and weekends and can be spread out over longer periods of time. What you suggest is that if they are scratchbuilding to save money they should instead use those extra hours to get a second job which is wrong-headed in many ways. Firstly working a second job would kill some people, you need a break to do you own stuff in your own time, it takes people out of their home and away from family, and a lot of full time jobs stipulate that you can't work a second job because they rightly believe that working extra hours elsewhere impacts your productivity on their first job. Anyway, plenty of people enjoy scratch building, it's not a chore and it it saves money even better. By that logic you could question why someone would paint their own figures if they could use that time to get a job and get them commission painted.

did you even read my post? it pretty much anticipated everything you just said.

unless you're a member of the leisure class, most people have to exchange time for money to the tune of 1/3 of their day. and if you have hundreds of hours to spare building tanks out of paper, and complain about being broke, then i'm sorry, but that's just poor life-economics. we'd all love to not work, make sacrifices for our families, take on ten or twelve hour days to make ends meet. we'd all love to take things on beyond our means.

if you can't afford the game, you can't afford the game. that's fine and i'd never castigate someone for trying to pinch pennies. but if you're broke, and struggling to make ends meet (hello, most of my twenties) but you still have all kinds of time to build elaborate paper toys, then you need to make some grown up life decisions about priorities.

also, if you have the kind of job that contracts you from taking on outside work, you have no problem affording a rhino. i'm willing to be corrected here, but if there's a minimum wage job out there that has such a contract, i'd be really curious as to what company it is with.

+1, exactly.

Hobbies are not a necessity. If you cannot afford it, return when you can or play at home.

If I invest in the appropriate models to represent and actually base and paint mine... and you arrive with LEGO or your space marines glued to bases, without arms even...

Nice
We have already a consensus by large that other than a temporary proxy, the shoebox is not acceptable.
Most of us also agree that the snobbish, plutocrtaic attitude is unecessary.
If the hobby is unecessary , what do you call the painting and basing of your minis.
Or are you a professional painter?


Silveroxide
nice work man! and top attitude.
Loving that LCV
be good if you could pop up a linky please.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

+1, exactly.

Hobbies are not a necessity. If you cannot afford it, return when you can or play at home.

If I invest in the appropriate models to represent and actually base and paint mine... and you arrive with LEGO or your space marines glued to bases, without arms even...

Nice
We have already a consensus by large that other than a temporary proxy, the shoebox is not acceptable.
Most of us also agree that the snobbish, plutocrtaic attitude is unecessary.
If the hobby is unecessary , what do you call the painting and basing of your minis.
Or are you a professional painter?

Necessity = Food, water, shelter.

If, once you have met these 3 items from your finances and cannot afford the hobby, my previous statement applies.

If you are trying to split hairs on the definitions of English words and phrases (Ie. Necessity and Hobby) please attempt to spell the larger words you use, but may not correctly understand (Ie. Plutocratic). Also, attempting to twist or change the context which they are in is a poor attempt for arguement.

Lastly, but not least, if I can earn more than the average Gamer/Hobbyist through hard work and superior economic situation, this does not make me a 'Snob' to call it like it is.

I see your Consensus and raise you Common Sense.

Has this become some kind of political struggle?
Just play who you like and how you like... i mean you will not meet irl anyway.
And if you by any chance do, you can still have a nice traditional fistfight over it .

Cheers

AvatarForm wrote:Hobbies are not a necessity. If you cannot afford it, return when you can or play at home.

If I invest in the appropriate models to represent and actually base and paint mine... and you arrive with LEGO or your space marines glued to bases, without arms even...

Appropriate models can be scratchbuilt though, this is confusing a lack of effort with a lack of money as being a detriment to the game. If someone turns up with a load of space marines without arms they clearly can afford to buy figures they just haven't made them properly, which is a different thing to someone scratchbuilding a replacment for an expensive kit.

Please don't patronise

what you assume to be common sense is drivelling platutinous snobbery. Note the word common. google the definition.

If you bother to read the previous posts you will find that I have already stated that I actually feel good for people that afford the stuff they get.
If you can afford the best gaming that money can buy, good for you. Chuffed for you mate.
However, there is no need to rub peoples' noses in it the fact. Most people apply common sense and good old courtesy and don't insult people with less income.

I was clarifying the distinction between hobby which generally is taken to refer to the craft aspects of gaming.
Which is what you obviously participate in if you paint and base your models.
But at the same time you deride hobbyists?

If you need to make yourself feel good about yourself by gloating over others' lack of funds then I am sorry for you.
Will see your singular definition of common sense and raise it with the decency and good form of the majority of people who have posted on this thread.

hemingway wrote:
if you can't afford the game, you can't afford the game. that's fine and i'd never castigate someone for trying to pinch pennies. but if you're broke, and struggling to make ends meet (hello, most of my twenties) but you still have all kinds of time to build elaborate paper toys, then you need to make some grown up life decisions about priorities.

also, if you have the kind of job that contracts you from taking on outside work, you have no problem affording a rhino. i'm willing to be corrected here, but if there's a minimum wage job out there that has such a contract, i'd be really curious as to what company it is with.

So you're saying that if you're not making enough money, but you have time on your hands, then it's your fault that you can't turn the additional time into money? A friend and coworker of mine got a Vendetta painted for me in a week or two's period of time while he was sitting around at home while the kids were asleep. His wife works nights, and even with them each having a job, what with two kids, often can't afford luxury items such that he's made occasional stand-ins for 40k stuff. Would you propose he leaves the kid alone while asleep in the interest of getting another job, or what? Second example, prior to my ascendancy into big-boy jobs, I was working two jobs, both in retail. I worked about 40-60 hours a week between the two, and I made enough to be comfortable with respect to necessities, but by no means enough for war-gaming. Since I did not know my schedule ahead of about a week or two, and it changed often, by as much as 20 hours between the two, how would you have proposed I landed another job?

Also, lots of retail jobs have problems with you working other retail jobs, period. I had exception by virtue of neither store selling competing products, but good luck with that if all you have around is a Wal-Mart and a grocery store.

Yeah, that's been one of the reasons why I can't get a second job (the main one being that it would kill me). Sometimes things are pretty stable, but this place has a habit of either cutting your hours or making you work mandatory overtime without any notice. And I mean any notice, you usually don't find out what's going on until the day before. Makes trying to plan for stuff difficult, and that's just how they want it...they don't really like it when employees work two jobs, they assume that you're wanting to leave then. Or they get offended because it's like telling them "you're not paying me enough".

As far as scratchbuilding goes, I don't really care so long as it looks good enough. I can accept temporary proxies or stand-ins for some models that are kinda crappy-looking, so long as it's only temporary...call me a snob if you want, but I can't accept the cardboard box with "land raider" written on it as a permanent addition to your army.

That's what most of us find acceptable Sid

If it look like one then it's okay
e.g i am okay with you having scratch built Landraider that actually look like one

but if you are saying that your lego block( see the lack of "s") or crumple of paper as a Reaver Titan, then well......
sorry, no go

I'll just say I don't get the prevailing attitude here. To me, it's a game and the game pieces are just representations of something that is impacted by dice roles. It's like saying you can't play monopoly anymore because you lost the game pieces but still have the paper money and everything else....instead of, you know; making new game pieces to allow you to play.

As long as the representations are the proper size, shape and are identifiable, I could care less if the opponent brought a poo-flinging monkey, set it on the table and called it a stompa (as long as it flung the poo some place else).

Chibi and Deadelus have good points, it might not always be appropriate to get a second job and some jobs won't let you go for a second job. Also the extra tax is a bitch.

hemingway wrote:also, if you have the kind of job that contracts you from taking on outside work, you have no problem affording a rhino. i'm willing to be corrected here, but if there's a minimum wage job out there that has such a contract, i'd be really curious as to what company it is with.

A lot of the lower ranks in the UK Armed Forces, for example, have restrictions on employment and are very low paid.

Taking the time and making the effort to build something out of paper and plasticard, which looks good, only serves to highlight the dedication and the desire to overcome adversity. Some people make paper models, which are almost as good as the real models, because they can and because they enjoy it, irrespecive of what their income is.

All of us make choices to represent something in our modelling, cork painted as rock, bits of metal, green stuff made into cloaks or helmets, sand and bits of flock to represent grass etc, this is just an extension of that process and gets all of my admiration and respect if they were to produce, from scratch, something that resembled or even challenged the quality of the real article.

I've seen kids turn up with a dread missing, which is still at home, dog ate it, mum chucked it out, and I have no compulsion to give the kid a box, a marker, or even an empty dice box before now so that the game can go on. To turn someone away on the basis that you haven't got the real thing is heartless and not really in the spirit which this hobby should be emulating. Did you ever pick up a stick and pretend it was a gun?

Howard A Treesong wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:Hobbies are not a necessity. If you cannot afford it, return when you can or play at home.

If I invest in the appropriate models to represent and actually base and paint mine... and you arrive with LEGO or your space marines glued to bases, without arms even...

Appropriate models can be scratchbuilt though, this is confusing a lack of effort with a lack of money as being a detriment to the game. If someone turns up with a load of space marines without arms they clearly can afford to buy figures they just haven't made them properly, which is a different thing to someone scratchbuilding a replacment for an expensive kit.

I can agree with the difference between lack of finances and lack of effort. However, neither excuse will pass at a national tourney.

GW tourneys are GW ONLY kits.

If you are lucky to have a good TO who lets a 'counts as' play, great. So long as it represents the model in dimensions; equipment; etc.

Chibi - how can you deride my post then agree with Sid later?

Paper tanks are not a scratchbuild. They are a template printed off a website in order to circumvent the commercial side of a hobby.

A scratchbuild is exactly that, scratchbuilt by the owner (or an agent), but not of a kit.

AvatarForm wrote:

GW tourneys are GW ONLY kits.

If you are lucky to have a good TO who lets a 'counts as' play, great. So long as it represents the model in dimensions; equipment; etc.

There in lies the basis of your attitude towards the subject. Tourneys. IMO once someone starts getting obsessed with tourneys and needs everything to be "tourney legal" then they have changed prospectives on the game. It is no longer a friendly game to be enjoyed, it has now become a sport and any enjoyment of it is directly related to how many titles they have won.

Mad4Minis wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

GW tourneys are GW ONLY kits.

If you are lucky to have a good TO who lets a 'counts as' play, great. So long as it represents the model in dimensions; equipment; etc.

There in lies the basis of your attitude towards the subject. Tourneys. IMO once someone starts getting obsessed with tourneys and needs everything to be "tourney legal" then they have changed prospectives on the game. It is no longer a friendly game to be enjoyed, it has now become a sport and any enjoyment of it is directly related to how many titles they have won.

Your assumption is incorrect.

GW (in this instance) creates a set of rules to be played with the appropriate minis (representation of the unit/character stats).

If you intend to proxy something, a piece of folded paper/cardboard box is insufficient. I could generalise here (like many of my opponents on the subject already have) and say MOST groups/clubs will not allow this.

Please, next time Im in the UK for work/leisure, Im happy to stop by Chibi's club and stomp his paper mache to pieces on the floor, afterall, it cost nothing. This also applies to shoeboxes/icecreambuckets and beer bottles (we had a beer bottle Greater Daemon show up to a tourney recently).

AvatarForm wrote:Please, next time Im in the UK for work/leisure, Im happy to stop by Chibi's club and stomp his paper mache to pieces on the floor, afterall, it cost nothing. This also applies to shoeboxes/icecreambuckets and beer bottles (we had a beer bottle Greater Daemon show up to a tourney recently).

Would you please go back to 5th grade where you belong? Destroying other people's models is never appropriate, no matter what your hangups are.

AlexHolker wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:Please, next time Im in the UK for work/leisure, Im happy to stop by Chibi's club and stomp his paper mache to pieces on the floor, afterall, it cost nothing. This also applies to shoeboxes/icecreambuckets and beer bottles (we had a beer bottle Greater Daemon show up to a tourney recently).

Would you please go back to 5th grade where you belong? Destroying other people's models is never appropriate, no matter what your hangups are.

I LOL'd... a cardboard box or icecream bucket is NOT a model... neither is a beer bottle (though it could make the less attractive members of the club appear model-esque)


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Ordo Dakka wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Only the wealthy are allowed to play the Sacred Game
Don't fret about creativity, just spend your way to an army.
Slap with a slice of lemon, wrapped around a gold brick for the first person to write, "If you can't afford the models don't play the game."
oops too late it's been said.
Ah well at least it was more eloquently put than the usual plutocratic speil Augustus.
Only makes me more determined to proxy stuff when I hear someone spouting that sort of drivel

We can't hear you from up on your moral high ground, Chibi.

We paid for our tanks, if you aren't paying, please put the time in to make them look acceptable.

For those who have forgotten, I believe Ordo Dakka phrased it best.

Tournaments are a totally different kettle of fish, of which no-one has yet mentioned but even for tournaments some do allow "counts as" models just as long as it is based in the right size base, just so long as it looks like what it is supposed ot represent, some tournament even allow unpainted armies!!

Your viewpoint is very elitist, I dread to think what would happen if you should stumble upon a non-tournament regulation cardboard creation from a 12 year old in a club. I'd love to see the results.

Your generalisation of most clubs is incorrect; I have had the pleasure of either founding, participating in, or playing against quite a few clubs over the years, all of them had proven to be very tolerant and encoruraging.
For most normal mortal beings, and most clubs which encourage gaming, there are limits to what counts as but as long as it is more than your extreme example most will accept the effort.

This IS a game. We make our own scenery after all and to make your own models using you own skill, irrespective of whether it was from a scratch build plasticard vision or a PDF template still takes effort and skill. As long as another player is happy for you to field it, so be it.

Anyone in my club who decides to stamp to death one of the members creations would soon follow beside it.

AvatarForm wrote:I can agree with the difference between lack of finances and lack of effort. However, neither excuse will pass at a national tourney.

GW tourneys are GW ONLY kits.

So what? Most people don't play at GW tournaments, they are a niche part of a niche hobby. I don't understand the preoccupation with making things GW tourney legal. Look, that doesn't apply to scratchbuilds, it applies to all non-GW figures, and the quality isn't a consideration whether it is a piece of paper or a golden demon standard build. You could spend just as much money and effort on an army that is made up using some non-GW figures and it wouldn't be GW tourney legal. So I don't really see the point you are making by bringing up finances/effort in relation to GW tournament rules, they are clearly there to support the corporate GW-purity side of the hobby not to ensure a high quality game that has good models on the table. Which is what normal people aim for - good looking games.

Paper tanks are not a scratchbuild. They are a template printed off a website in order to circumvent the commercial side of a hobby.

Why are we talking about the commercial side of the hobby? What you can't join in the game if you're not a rich kid? This is wargaming not buying designer clothing where you have to buy expensive clothing to hang out with the cool kids.

t's this disgusting elitism raising it's head again, a 'proper' army has to be one made up of GW models and be passable in a GW shop. I don't understand why some people are pretending there are only two ends of the spectum in this discussion, GW models or ice cream tubs being used on the table. Many have made it clear that scratchbuilds can be of a high quality, and a high quality painted scratchbuild is much better on the table than a manged official GW kit. The paper models can be built to a high standard, so why continually compare them to proxies using plastic bottles, they clearly aren't the same thing at all.

The hobby is what you make it, players set the rules not GW. Where did all this bs come from about playing private game as though you are in a Games Workshop store or tournament? It's absurd that people are flying the flag for GW by telling people they have to buy GW models and wag their finger about armies not being GW tournament legal because they use scratchbuilds.

GW makes rules, lots of companies make rules. GW make figures, other companies make figures. And you can kit bash stuff from card and plastic. Something is really stinks in the hobby if people can't just be free to mix ranges of figures, models and rules as they please. As long as it looks good on the table then that's all that counts.

I agree with Treesong 100%. I think one thing we all need to recognize is that scratch build and proxies are spread all over the place, and are not all either: a) a soda bottle tossed on with a sticker on it that says 'Carnifex', or b) A masterly crafted, utterly beautiful creation crafted over hours in a cave with a box of scraps.

There is a spectrum, and that spectrum depends on a lot of things. Seriously guys, think about it. If a 13 year old comes up to you in a GW (and I mean a mature kid, not a whining complaining one) and asks for a game, and he says plainly: "I lost my Land Speeder model, and until I find it or my parents let me buy another one I have to proxy it with a box." Well, I want to know which one of you would look at that kid and say that obviously he's not working hard enough.

On the other hand, if the same guy has been placing down a game box with the word Land Raider written on it 20x over a course of months, and he flat out says he just doesn't care enough to replace it with the real thing, would you still want to play him? There is a spectrum we have to consider in this whole thing. Not everything is either a piece of crap, or completely beautiful.