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That actually looks quite nice, and I'd have nothing against it. It's when the guy I'm playing against finishes his Coke, and then drops it down on a table declaring it to be a drop pod. I think we can all agree on this kind of thing.

Soda can drop pod, and other things which are just crap: not allowable unless severe extenuating circumstances.
Scratch builds: BRING IT ON!

Erhm, agnosto, while I applaud the idea (if it's yours!) I think it needs a some bits and fleshing out so it's not 2-D. But it certainly looks hilarious Defiler-hermit crab...

I wish I could take credit for something like that; sadly, no, I just found it on the interwebz.

I like the defiler hermit-crab idea. I'll bring it up tonight with my chaos playing friend. We always joke that his defilers only stay on the field a turn or two anyway, it'd be better to have something lighter and without fiddly bitz.

It's important to me that the battlefield looks good. I don't consider a high quality scratchbuild to be a 'proxy', it represents a vehicle as effectively as the proper kit. In my mind a 'proxy' is putting a plastic bottle or square of paper on the table and that's not cool, you're not putting minatures on the table, that's litter. But I don't think that's the troubling comparison being drawn here. People arguing for paper models are not arguing for plastic bottles.

The paper plans are very high quality. With effort they can look as good as the real thing, so good we have been told that they infringe IP making them a form of theft. So what is the argument here, that paper models are inherently rubbish or that they are too good? It has to be accepted that like all things the end result is heavily dependent upon the effort put in and some scratchbuilds are very good indeed.

If someone puts a load of rubbish on the table then that will bother me because I want a game that looks good. My dispute is with people who claim that either all scratchbuilds are poor quality, which clearly isn't true, or that high quality scratch builds are rip-offs of the real thing and shouldn't be used for that reason alone.

If a model looks good put it on the table, if it looks like no effort has been made then keep it off. It doesn't matter if the models are bought RRP from a Games Workshop, bought from another company or made from card. That's not the prerequisite for a good game in my book. A well made and painted scratchbuild of a Rhino is worth more on the field of battle than an unpainted kit bought from GW.

So... nobody would like this?

Like I said earlier I have no problem with well put together scratch built cardstock models. I currently have 2 GW drops, one cardstock/foam-core and 9 in the works out of plastic cookie containers.
For my house I have no problems using them all, but if I want to my LFGS I would be embarrassed to take the “Cookie Pods” until I am finished with them.

Maybe this is the wrong place for part of this, As far GW employees go I do not have a problem with them look at us as walking wallets, its their job. However I have a Furry Con I go to that sees all of us as walking wallets with Ears and Tails and they treat us all great.

Great point Treesong . I think that can be summed up as the "rule of cool". And again, I bet 99% people actually agree with what you're saying- if it's rubbish, nobody wants to play against it, but if effort has been put in and it looks good, it's no problem (or even better).

I think the supporting local stores / GW IP are separate issues that muddy the water a bit, and shouldn't be involved in a discussion that is basically "what is fit for the tabletop?"

And agnosto... no Just no!

agnosto wrote:So... nobody would like this?

I would let you play it, as long as sooner or later a real Land Raider replaces it. If it was a pick up game? Sure, why not. I'm not sure if I'd play you gain, but I'll play you this one time. If it was a pre-planned game? Then I'd kinda be a little pissed. I mean c'mon...can't you do better than a video game box with a land raider drawn on? Or if you can't, make a list that doesn't have one?

Why? Because it's unpainted?

agnosto wrote:Why? Because it's unpainted?

No, because I want to play a cool looking game...I mean if we planned this game to be you trying out a new unit before you drop the cash on them? Sure. Why not? But if this was a pre-planned friendly game or a pick up game? I mean c'mon...can you not write a list that doesn't have this unit? If you need the tank to make it to x point level, then maybe we should play at y point level instead?

@ ChrisWWII,

I was just having a larf. It's not mine and I, personally, never field anything I don't have a model for. Would I play against someone who has a box-landraider? Yes. Why? Because it's a game and I have enough of an imagination to incorporate what the box represents.

There is no spoon.

So which is the better drop pod, Coke or Pespsi?
And is there a points upgrade for Pepsi Max?

Powerclaw
That is excellent mate and highly commendable.
You can rightly be proud of that. The problem is that there are some people trying to get a more affordable/creative way into the hobby who are genuine hobbyists being tarred with the same brush as a guy with a bogroll killakan ie just a toilet roll holder

Thinks bogroll KillaKans
see the toilet roll holder could be the start of an interesting project.

And seriously a drinks can proxy is only acceptable to me as a stop gap.

If some one said they just wanted to try out the tactics before investing time or money then that to me is cool.

re GW stores. That again is a different matter,
There is no way I would take anything that would embarrass the staff or myself to their tables.
More than anything else is a matter of courtesy.
But who would refuse Stump's stuff? Would be an honour to have that on one's table.

Ok. Last pic (because it's just too darn funny) and I'm done.

Qustion: Where do landraiders go to die?

Answer:

Actually that LR erm I mean box has a certain cartoon charm

I'd play for the laughs!
edit: ditto the defiler
nice one!

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oo that skip would make a cool Rhino conversion

^^ That is actually hilarious. Good to see the Ultrasmurfs getting what they deserve.

But yes, Agnosto. I know you're having a laugh, and like I said, if you're proxying the Carboardius Boxius pattern Land Raider in a pick up game I wouldn't mind. If you're playing it as a proxy to see how you like a unit before you buy it...once again. No problem. Hell, I'd probably laugh and enjoy the game more with the cardboard land raider.

My issue is when someone is fielding that cardboard box as a Land Raider for months on end, and obviously has no intention of buying the real model. THEN I get annoyed. As was said earlier...it's like if someone came up at a card game with a deck of index cards that had hand drawn pictures of whatever they're supposed to be instead of real cards. Wouldn't you be kinda annoyed if they kept using that deck with no intention of getting the REAL cards?

ChrisWWII wrote:
it's like if someone came up at a card game with a deck of index cards that had hand drawn pictures of whatever they're supposed to be instead of real cards. Wouldn't you be kinda annoyed if they kept using that deck with no intention of getting the REAL cards?

Actually did that back in my MtG days because my Black Lotus and Moxes were worth so much that I never took them out of the plastic but I always had them available if people wanted to verify they existed. We would also make up cards; sometimes funny, sometimes competitive but were always up front about what they were etc.... it eventually led to me making my own card game that I had planned on publishing eventually but never did.

God, I'm old; I'm reminiscing about games past for cripe's sake.

Ordo Dakka wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:I'm condescending because I'm a nice guy and offer to give my opponent proxies to use? I don't understand :3

No silly the army men thing :3

Ah, well right you are about that. I certainly am, I'll admit


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agnosto wrote:So... nobody would like this?

that's pretty hawt right there. I might be okay with it. A little more work and it would be pretty cool

Gee, when I saw the title I thot it was gonna be about Dark Eldar.

agnosto wrote:So... nobody would like this?

I like it. It shows someone has a sense of humor and can take themselves loosely enough for it to be a good game. Plus he bothered to draw in all that detail. Probably spend a good amount of time sketching all that in. I give it a 6 out of 10. Bonus points for the name.

Anpu42 wrote:Here is the worst I have ever seen:

Ok even I must admit, that is hilarious.

(But I wouldn't play against it.)

I wouldn't play against it on the grounds that I don't want to be beaten by a dog dressed like that!
Good grief, the humiliation

It would be more dignified to lose to a dog not wearing a cossie. Not much more, granted, but it would at least be some consolation.

And besides, it would be an accomplishment in itself to have the dog move appropriately (by the game rules) when it's his/her owner's turn and remain motionless when it's the opponents

Alastergrimm wrote:I am fine with people builting their own stuff, but I have also seen folks who try to pass a pepsi can as a drop pod. I just can't get on the wagon with something like that.

Agreed, that's just stupid. Went to the paperhammer link above in Iron Angels post, and what is that printed out on paper Tyranids "army" then stuck on bases. No no and no some more, that's taking the idea too far. I'm all for encouraging scratch build, I've done plenty myself when I started 40k, especially before Forgeworld and GW started producing models for most of the options in an army list, templates are fine too, but put in some effort please. Building is part of the hobby is it not?

I think the most important thing is that you can recognize the model, like the ork builds above, clearly with guns and an awesome deff dread/killa kan, no problems with models like that.


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And the dog is just awesome, not sure how I'd react to it standing all over the boards and the whole turn concept but hey that's just being picky

Herohammernostalgia wrote:And besides, it would be an accomplishment in itself to have the dog move appropriately (by the game rules) when it's his/her owner's turn and remain motionless when it's the opponents

Simple, it's a flying object, just suspend it from the celing...

Then all you'd have to worry about is drool

That could be the least of your worries!!!

I think some of you go way beyond the line of reasoning when it comes to the topic. But on the opposite end of that argument people get stupid with "scratch builds" The worst I remember personally was a guy had a blob of playdoh that was his "LRBT" I kid you not. At least he took the time to bake it so it was hard and not soft, that was a direct quote even.

PAper tanks can look really cool and I applaud people that take the time to make them look nice (that one Monolith someone did on here before was just INSANE) I also lower the bar alot if the person in question is trying something new and didnt want to waste the money. Hell even if someone really likes the game but just cant afford it, is fine. I wont damn someone just because they arnt rich enough to play 40k. But I do agree that sometime down the road, this pile of junk had better be the real deal, or a nice scratch build.


I also think Stump is a hardcore MekBoy at heart

vitki wrote:

Herohammernostalgia wrote:And besides, it would be an accomplishment in itself to have the dog move appropriately (by the game rules) when it's his/her owner's turn and remain motionless when it's the opponents

Simple, it's a flying object, just suspend it from the celing...

Then all you'd have to worry about is drool

And hope he dosent pee on you

Yeah Flame Template or Large Blast
doesn't bear thiking about!

There's a simple reality that I'm surprised nobody has touched on: Making a high quality scratch build is a big undertaking. On the face of it, I'd say making a scratch rhino, for example, would probably take me 50 hours if I wanted to make something that I could field at my FLGS. Let's do a little math

A Rhino costs forty bucks. For me, that's a little less than two hours work at my hourly job, or ten minutes work serving process. That means that for the 50 hours I spent building that rhino, I could have earned the money to buy 25 rhinos. In short, good scratch builds don't provide any return on investment from a dollar point of view.

So if someone undertakes a scratch build that is involved and indicates a clear love of the hobby, I have no problem with that, even if it doesn't look like a perfect clone of the original, because the amount of time they have spent on it is greater than the amount of time it would take to earn the money to buy it. Follow?

By that same token, if someone is making scratch builds because they say they can't afford to buy the models, well, I simply can't believe that. If you can spend 4 hours a day on a scratch build, that's time you could be working for money and buying those same models. They're building scratch because they are lazy, or would rather be making scratch models, or have other responsibilities that take priority over being at work.

But if someone was to show up with a couple boxes glued together as a landraider and say 'hey, i'm broke, i can't afford a landraider this paycheque, mind if i use this glued-up shoebox to try out with my army?' I'd be more cool with that than I would be with some guy who I know is unemployed and on welfare coming in with 1500 dollars worth of models, because he's saying 'I don't have the money to buy the model, and I don't have the time to make a good scratch build because life is more important than a land-raider right now'. I'm cool with that.

I kinda... disapprove of people just using an old shoebox for something. I certainly approve of people who make things out of plasticard as long as they are actually achieving the goal they are trying to reach. Meaning that if they actually make something that is a Rhino out of plasticard, I'll be fine with them using it. But trying to use that chunk of wood you drew treads on? I think not...