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AvatarForm wrote: Howard, my post was in response to Chris... however, given that you both seem to post immediately after eachother, my theory is this:
1. You are the same person posting under different accounts in order to add 'weight' to your shared viewpoints. In this instance you seem to have confused which account you were posting from when responding.
2. You are 2 separate individuals who thread-stalk eachother...
Im not sure which ne is more strange...
Are you seriously suggesting we're one individual that runs two accounts running up hundreds of posts each? That's a lot of work for a sock puppet. I'm sure a mod will be able to prove we operate from different IP addresses if you wish to pursue this paranoia.
A for thread-stalking, as far as I'm aware this is the only thread we share considerable participation in. I mean looking at his posting history he contributes a bit to the Make the Call section which is somewhere I almost never go mainly because I don't play current editions of the game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/10/05 12:36:00
AvatarForm wrote:
Howard, my post was in response to Chris... however, given that you both seem to post immediately after eachother, my theory is this:
1. You are the same person posting under different accounts in order to add 'weight' to your shared viewpoints. In this instance you seem to have confused which account you were posting from when responding.
2. You are 2 separate individuals who thread-stalk eachother...
Im not sure which ne is more strange...
Or maybe they both live in the same time-zone, thus allowing them both to be online at approximately the same time, and they both happen to feel the same way?
Woah... what if I'm a sock puppet? How to I check?
Or maybe they both live in the same time-zone, thus allowing them both to be online at approximately the same time, and they both happen to feel the same way?
Woah... what if I'm a sock puppet? How to I check?
Did you post very soon after someone?
Did you support their point?
If you answered yes to either of these question, then congratulations! You're a sockpuppet!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/05 15:10:34
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
AvatarForm wrote:
Howard, my post was in response to Chris... however, given that you both seem to post immediately after eachother, my theory is this:
1. You are the same person posting under different accounts in order to add 'weight' to your shared viewpoints. In this instance you seem to have confused which account you were posting from when responding.
2. You are 2 separate individuals who thread-stalk eachother...
Im not sure which ne is more strange...
Or maybe they both live in the same time-zone, thus allowing them both to be online at approximately the same time, and they both happen to feel the same way?
Woah... what if I'm a sock puppet? How to I check?
No, I'm the SOCK PUPPET!
Seriously AvatarForm you need to relax a little bit, its just plastic (or paper) soldiers!
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
Would you rather play with a player that fields unpainted GW models (thus legal)?
or
Would you rather play with a player that fields high quality paper tanks and high quality scratch built models?
I am still trying to narrow this down to.... is it a matter of looks or of money invested..... and subsequently forcing someone to abide to the same standard than you...
If I recall, the company selling 40k is called GAMES workshop.... not hobby workshop.
^^ I'll play either of them. It doesn't matter to me. More importantly, this is not what we're discussing here. We've all agreed that there's nothing wrong with scratch builds, whatever they might be made out of. This argument is over people throwing down tissue boxes with 'Land Raider' written on it. Or worse....this.
As you can see, this guy simply printed out pictures of Tyranids, and mounted them on bases to be used as models. This I do not find acceptable at all, and probably would try to avoid playing against.
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
Howard A Treesong wrote:..I don't accept that all paper models are inherently rubbish,...
I do. More to the point, rubbish as substitute game pieces. As art, they could be great. In the context of the thread though, with the express purpose of use as proxies, rubbish, at any caliber.
Howard A Treesong wrote:and I don't accept the worth of an argument based on violating IP and 'not supporting the community'.
Do you never play in stores? Do you never play in sanctioned events, demos, Hardboy, or tourneys? Do you really think there is no merit at all in seeing some of the money get back to the stores and company who created the ideas for every model you play with? Honestly I have a hard time believing you don't want to support the community in this way if you are even on these boards?
Howard A Treesong wrote:Someone building a model of a tank probably has a heap of figures which they have bought from a store. Well built paper models would usually supplement an army which is being bought from a store, I don't believe in an all or nothing approach to gaming, you can mix normal figures with scratchbuilds.
Probably, but is depriving just a few sales ok? Assuming you bought the infantry, to make all paper copy tanks?
Howard A Treesong wrote:Which seems to suggest that if you scratchbuild a model you are depriving someone of a sale.
Yes, but once again in context, if one, as a veteran experienced player, chose to tape together paper copies they are depriving sales, and setting quite a poor example as well, if playing in a public venue of any sort, even to other members of the group.
I don't think it is an undue stretch to call the landraider marker shoe box and the scratchbuilt battlewagon in this thread completely different things.
Augustus wrote:
Probably, but is depriving just a few sales ok? Assuming you bought the infantry, to make all paper copy tanks?
This makes the same fallacy that the recording industry, movie industry, and video game industry all make when claiming that piracy is killing them: Not every pirated copy (or paper tank) is a lost sale.
Just because someone has a copy doesn't mean they would have ever paid for the original, no matter how hostile the universe becomes to their copies.
As you can see, this guy simply printed out pictures of Tyranids, and mounted them on bases to be used as models. This I do not find acceptable at all, and probably would try to avoid playing against.
Thing is these are more visually stimulating then the piles of unpainted figs many players plop down on a regular basis...
CT GAMER wrote:Thing is these are more visually stimulating then the piles of unpainted figs many players plop down on a regular basis...
No, actually, not really.
Who cares about the stores anyway right? Lets just encourage people to make copies and play in their basements. It's all about the gamez anyway.
Both of those examples are junk IMO, don't like either one, especially the black and white Ork Battlewagon, it's terrible. Wouldn't play it,. wouldn't let it in my store, wouldn't let it in my tourney, would tell the owner to get a real one.
Man, after that, I think I just want to say I'm done with this thread. Anyone who has a problem with those vehicles there's just no reasoning with. To whomever made those, I think they're awesome, and my hat's off to you. Especially the Rhino. Looks better than most of the plastic ones I have.
Augustus wrote:Wouldn't play it,. wouldn't let it in my store, wouldn't let it in my tourney, would tell the owner to get a real one.
Not trying to be an ass but if you own a game store, you of course have a strongly vested interest in one side of the conversation. Some could plonk down a gold-plated, hand-crafted battlewagon next to an unpainted, badly assembled GW one and you'd still prefer the GW one. For you, it's personal economics, not the hobby, not the game.
That at least makes your intransigent stance understandable.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
CT GAMER wrote:Thing is these are more visually stimulating then the piles of unpainted figs many players plop down on a regular basis...
No, actually, not really.
Who cares about the stores anyway right? Lets just encourage people to make copies and play in their basements. It's all about the gamez anyway.
Both of those examples are junk IMO, don't like either one, especially the black and white Ork Battlewagon, it's terrible. Wouldn't play it,. wouldn't let it in my store, wouldn't let it in my tourney, would tell the owner to get a real one.
You go girl!!!
Give um hell!!!
Personally I don't own or play any paper models, but I also don't aspire to be TFG and wouldn't have an issue with it.
Then again I sometimes forget what serious business toy soldiers really is...
Not to mention that the section of my post you quoted had nothing to do with economics or any stance for or against supporting store. I was speaking purely to visual appeal, and Those colored card cut outs do indeed provide more visual stimulation then naked grey plastic no matter how hard you want to change the subject...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/05 21:36:12
I don't own a store, but I have been around long enough to watch several go out of business for a variety of reasons, not the least of which are enough gamers being cheap and belligerent.
Augustus, as much as your debunking earlier was awesome, I have to say I'd happily play that scratch built Battlewagon, especially after it was painted. Whoever made that clearly has a great dedication to the hobby, and if he was in my (hypothetical) store? I'd congratulate him. Even though he may not buy much, his enthusiasm would undoubtedly make the environment better for all players.
And even though the 'Nids are colorful, you have to remember....they're pieces of paper! 2D things stuck on a base! I'd rather fight a ghost plastic army than those things up there.
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
Augustus wrote:I don't own a store, but I have been around long enough to watch several go out of business for a variety of reasons, not the least of which are enough gamers being cheap and belligerent.
You do understand that many people do not play in stores and don't aspire to right? You do understand that someone who makes a paper model isn't always doing so simply to avoid buying the real thing right? Don't attempt to apply your one vision of someone's motivation for doing something onto everyone that might build such a model.
Yes a business owner has every right to deny non-paying customers from using his gaming space, as does any event organizer. That goes without saying, but has nothing to do with what we are discussing really.
I personally don't buy from any LGS and don't play in them either. MY using a paper model (if I chose to) has no impact on the profits of any LGS. Thus your desire to turn this into a debate over supporting stores is largely ignorant and without merit...
You may choose to play or not play me and y paper models (if I had any) for personal reasons, but my owning/using them has no effect on any LGS's profits...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/05 21:52:38
Lost track of this thread for a bit, but I have to say Augustus I did enjoy your rebuttals . And I see your point. Scratch builds (for the most part) do not equal paper tanks.
However, "paper tanks" like the above battle wagon and rhino I would lump in with scratch builds. It looks like they're either using layers of paper or thicker paper, which could basically be plasticard, which could basically be a scratch build
And I will leave you with a catchy tune from 3rd grade music class: A round is a circle, a circle is round / Fits like a puzzle, as it goes round / Notes fly by like clouds in the sky / A round is a circle, a circle is round (sung by kids not yet at puberty and with a different group starting on the first verse whenever the first group gets to the next one)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/05 21:48:23
ChrisWWII wrote:Augustus, as much as your debunking earlier was awesome, I have to say I'd happily play that scratch built Battlewagon,.
+1
Who is more dedicated to the hobby, the guy who buys the GW kit slaps it together in 45 minutes and pushes it's gray unpainted mass around game after game or the guy that spent a FAR larger time building that paper version and also made it to such a high degree of detail/accuracy?
I'd rather have "paper modeler" and his creations in my gaming group then "unpainted BW guy" any day of the week...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiTides wrote:However, "paper tanks" like the above battle wagon and rhino I would lump in with scratch builds. It looks like they're either using layers of paper or thicker paper, which could basically be plasticard, which could basically be a scratch build
+1
That paper rhino would only be discovered as such if picked up and the weight was off. I don't know about you guys but I don't pick up all my opponent's models pre-game to estimate weight before I decide to play them or not...
If I can't tell with the eye then what does it really matter, and I'm guessing the BW could be painted to be just as convincing.
So if I plop that rhino down and you can't tell it's paper and we play or if i tell you does knowing it is paper really change your desire to play? IF you answer yes then your probably not the kind of person I want to hang around/game with anyways. Thanks for helping me not waste my time I guess...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/10/05 21:55:00
I kind of mentioned this in my last post, but I guess I should expand on it. Economics is not the only thing that is required to run a gaming store. Yes, you need money coming in, but you also need a good community. If you judge a member's worth in your community based on the amount of stuff he buys from you...imagine who you're cutting out? Here is a deliberately skewed example to illustrate my point. Suppose a GT Winning gamer moves to you town, and becomes part of your stores. He doesn't buy very much, but he's always giving out great tips for playing, painting and all kinds of useful things.
On the other hand, you have a 14 year old kid who buys TONS of stuff from you thanks to a big allowance from parents who just want him out of their hair. He's not TFG, but he lacks skills when it comes to painting, modelling and playing the game.
Who would you say is the bigger contributor to the Community? If you look at it purely economically, it's the kid. But once you factor in all the other things that make up a gaming community, obvious the GT winner is the much more important contributor and member of the community.
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
Augustus wrote:I don't own a store, but I have been around long enough to watch several go out of business for a variety of reasons, not the least of which are enough gamers being cheap and belligerent.
I don't want to seem like I'm jumping on you, but I disagree; additionally, I'm not sure where "belligerent" comes in to the equation as it has nothing to do with someone buying a product or producing their own.
Cheap or broke gamers wouldn't be purchasing from any FLGS anyway so I fail to see how they would fold because someone who wasn't going to buy anything from them, didn't. People that argue such points are basing their opinion on one, erroneous belief; that people that pirate (or in this case scratchbuild or photocopy and past on stands) would have purchased something to begin with.
Most people don't start the day thinking thoughts like, "How will I cause the downfall of my FLGS or the company that makes the game I play?" I would state that if you gave someone the option of either buying something or spending countless hours scratchbuilding it or folding it from paper, would buy it if they had the funds.
Here, Tommy, you can buy this Battlewagon for $60 OR you can spend $10 in materials and 10 hours of labor to build something that may or may not look something like the original once it's complete.
That's my stance on the matter; you, of course, are more than welcome to maintain your own. But in the nature of mutual dialog, it helps to see both sides of the argument.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
Augustus wrote:I don't own a store, but I have been around long enough to watch several go out of business for a variety of reasons, not the least of which are enough gamers being cheap and belligerent.
You do understand that many people do not play in stores and don't aspire to right?
Indeed, and I admit, playing in stores is not the only way to do it.
I speak very brusquely I know
I cant help but recognize the craftsmanship in those examples CT, but they are both obviously made as proxies, which.... well you know what I think. To put a finer point on it, this I think is very cool by contrast, because it's a wonderful piece, but not intended as a proxy.
It's big and beautiful and unique! But it isn't a proxy play piece. I think most fans of 40k would like seeing this, in a store or otherwise, but if the creator made 6 and had other paper things and wanted to play the game, well that's crossing the line (academic here because the scale of this dread is much larger).
CT GAMER wrote:...owning/using them has no effect on any LGS's profits...
That's grey.
Depends who you ask, making one from a cereal box at home, probably never on the radar. Making printable rhino patterns and distributing them on the internet... Here lie some of the major controversies of our day.
Also, did anyone else notice the UNPAINTED ORKS in the fake battlewagon image? See where the paper model tendency really leads, the nice stuff is the exception, it's just a lower standard in general, despite a few well crafted examples being used as justifications for the practice..
EDIT:
agnosto wrote:Most people don't start the day thinking thoughts like, "How will I cause the downfall of my FLGS or the company that makes the game I play?"
Most people don't get married thinking the divorce will be hard either.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
[1855 H. G. Bohn Hand-Book of Proverbs 514]
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/05 22:30:18
Howard A Treesong wrote:and I don't accept the worth of an argument based on violating IP and 'not supporting the community'.
Do you never play in stores? Do you never play in sanctioned events, demos, Hardboy, or tourneys? Do you really think there is no merit at all in seeing some of the money get back to the stores and company who created the ideas for every model you play with? Honestly I have a hard time believing you don't want to support the community in this way if you are even on these boards?
No. I've never played in a store or taken part in GW sanctioned tournaments. It doesn't fit my approach to the hobby, I play with friends and usually at one person's home or another. My local shop doesn't have gaming space but even when I've lived other places going to a shop of all places to play didn't appeal. I probably wouldn't be entirely welcome at GW events because I use other manufacturers models in my games. I'm primarily a modeller and concentrate on getting good armies for my own benefit, not getting involved in the politics of fielding a GW pure army or whatever, in private games you have freeddom to play how you like, I don't want to GW corporate rules on only using their models in their shops. I understand why they choose to do this on their premises and have no issue, it's just not for me.
Of course I see merit in money going back to stores and companies the make miniatures, but that's not totally incompatible with making a few scratchbuilds. I'm not up for people fielding rubbish, a paper/card model should look good, that is my criteria. The amount I've spent on the hobby in nearly 20 years means I've given a fair back to manufacturers and I support small manufacturers. I personally wouldn't bother scratch building a Rhino, but I would a titan. And if I never get around to it, well Forgeworld haven't been deprived a sale because there's no possibility of me buying one anyway.
Is there an issue with building a copy of something available, or building something that there is a kit for? I mean, seeing as there's a model of an Ork Stompa I assume you think it wrong to make a paper copy of it. Ok. But what about a stompa in a different shape? Is that ok because it doesn't look like the GW stompa, or wrong because you are scratchbuilding a model for which there is an official release? Not clear on that.
Howard A Treesong wrote:Are you seriously suggesting we're one individual that runs two accounts running up hundreds of posts each? That's a lot of work for a sock puppet. I'm sure a mod will be able to prove we operate from different IP addresses if you wish to pursue this paranoia.
A for thread-stalking, as far as I'm aware this is the only thread we share considerable participation in. I mean looking at his posting history he contributes a bit to the Make the Call section which is somewhere I almost never go mainly because I don't play current editions of the game.
daedalus wrote:
Or maybe they both live in the same time-zone, thus allowing them both to be online at approximately the same time, and they both happen to feel the same way?
Woah... what if I'm a sock puppet? How to I check?
Wow... thread was over after your points were irrevocably debunked. None of you have added to the arguement since you joined the thread and should be simply posting "+1" if youreally wish to increase your post counts.
Howard - My post about you being the same person was a joke I decided to post after I was PMd by a few members who thought it was a perculiar coincidence.
daedalus - thanks for stating obvious fact but otherwise not enhancing nor contributing to the arguements being discussed. *carefully folds daedalus and places him back in his nice, warm sock drawer*
MikZor wrote:
We can't help that american D&D is pretty much daily life for us (Aussies)
Walking to shops, "i'll take a short cut through this bush", random encounter! Lizard with no legs.....
I kid Since i avoid bushlands that is But we're not that bad... are we?
And I will leave you with a catchy tune from 3rd grade music class: A round is a circle, a circle is round / Fits like a puzzle, as it goes round / Notes fly by like clouds in the sky / A round is a circle, a circle is round (sung by kids not yet at puberty and with a different group starting on the first verse whenever the first group gets to the next one)
This type of song is called, appropriately, a round, RiTides.
Bit like we used to sing London's Burning, but sadly not the Clash anthem coz they hadn't been invented yet I suppose you could do the same with that other well known kiddy song,
The Posts on a Thread go Round and Round.
707th Lubyan Aquila Banner Motor Rifle Regiment (6000 pts)
Battlefleet Tomania (2500 pts)
. And I see your point. Scratch builds (for the most part) do not equal paper tanks.
