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Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Unfortunately I can't help you. Not qualified.

Clearly, not qualified. How are those paper games going?

The thread isn't called "scratch built tanks'

It's called 'Paper tanks...'

Here's a gallery image of his:


Here's one of mine:

sworth9411 wrote:"A group of gamers (not newbies people whove been in it for several years) took it upon themelves to scribble outlines of rhinos land raiders etc on notebook paper, tape them up and field them as playable models."

So not new players, and with taped up paper copies?

by the OPs own admission,

Not talking about scratch built models
Not talking about meticulous constructed conversions
Not talking about kids
Not talking about new players
Talking about Land Raiders and Rhinos, NOT unavailable Model proxies, but copies

sworth9411 wrote:"what I am seeing is a growing trend of gamers making out of paper, foam board or similar glueing haphazardly and passing it off as a tank.... "

In a recent 'paid' event, I saw an ALL paper defiler and 2 ALL paper rhinos, in a Chaos army. That player should have been disqualified. So I noticed this trend too.

If I ran a store, and you brought paper versions of models I sold, I would ask you not to use them in my store. If you came back with them I would ask you to leave!

If you want to make paper, whatevers, and play at home, who cares. Just remember from the OP, we are talking about a growing trend of paper copies from 'experienced players' now apparently. Quit trying to prop up poor arguments with creativity babble we are talking about paper copies.

It's appalling.

WOW and there i thougt its cool to build a titan out of plastic card... even my friends at the gaming club agree and urge me to get it done faster as it looks cool (so they say)...

Well im quite happy about scratchbuild stuff in our club. And we never had trouble with proxys.. even bottles for drop pods are fine if someone is testing a list.

Only if someone is never going to replace the bottles we will start to mock him/her a little. But this actually never happened.

lulz. You guys care way too much about your game of army men. I have all the rhinos I need. I know others aren't necessarily as well off as I.

I often volunteer cardboard squares to my friends if they need them. A leman russ, rhino and Chimera are all about the same size, so I just keep a bunch of them in my bag when I play.

Also, can I have a linky for some of these things? I'd love to use up some printer paper on something half useful

Samus_aran115 wrote:lulz. You guys care way too much about your game of army men. I have all the rhinos I need. I know others aren't necessarily as well off as I.

I often volunteer cardboard squares to my friends if they need them. A leman russ, rhino and Chimera are all about the same size, so I just keep a bunch of them in my bag when I play.

Also, can I have a linky for some of these things? I'd love to use up some printer paper on something half useful

I believe you will find something here: Klick me for template goodness

Scroll down to download section.

Cheers

I agree, unless your basically mass producing paper models and selling them for a profit? There's no problem with GW IP or infringement. Hell, some of their rulebooks encourage you to build those models, don't they? More importantly, I'm not sure what GW has copyrighted, but I doubt British IP laws are so stringent that you can't even have something set in that universe. As far as I'm concerned, anything scratch built is not taking something out of the universe GW has created, it's adding too it.

In a real world sense, like I said earlier, it all depends on the amount of effort put into making it. There's that Ork minelayer made out of a soda bottle in the Apoc rulebook, would I play against that? Hell yeah. Would I play against a couple pieces of cardboard taped together with the words 'Leman Russ' written on it? Well...even then it's debatable.

I mean, if it's some kid whose just get started, I'd let him get away with it. Maybe he wants to learn the rules for models, he doesn't have yet or something...I don't know. But if I play game after game after game with him, and he obviously doesn't care about making his models look better...then I'll get annoyed.

tl;dr: It's all subjective. You can't have a blanket policy that remains fair.

Samus_aran115 wrote:lulz. You guys care way too much about your game of army men. I have all the rhinos I need. I know others aren't necessarily as well off as I.

I often volunteer cardboard squares to my friends if they need them. A leman russ, rhino and Chimera are all about the same size, so I just keep a bunch of them in my bag when I play.

Also, can I have a linky for some of these things? I'd love to use up some printer paper on something half useful

God damn you can be condescending sometimes Samus.

Ordo Dakka wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:lulz. You guys care way too much about your game of army men. I have all the rhinos I need. I know others aren't necessarily as well off as I.

I often volunteer cardboard squares to my friends if they need them. A leman russ, rhino and Chimera are all about the same size, so I just keep a bunch of them in my bag when I play.

Also, can I have a linky for some of these things? I'd love to use up some printer paper on something half useful

God damn you can be condescending sometimes Samus.

I actually found it quite amusing.

gazelle wrote:Yes, White Dwarf used to have articles about how to build Ork vehicles from cereal boxes. I used their "Blitzwagon" template to build the orignal style battlewagons from cardboard because my FLGS couldn't get them in.

I loved those
[b]In the more recent past, I have become a proficient cardstock modeller. Building and painting the GW kit is easier for me than rendering the model templates with color and texture in Photoshop. I save that for my terrain, most of which is commercially avilable and only needs a little alteration to 40K-ify.

Iron Angel wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:lulz. You guys care way too much about your game of army men. I have all the rhinos I need. I know others aren't necessarily as well off as I.

I often volunteer cardboard squares to my friends if they need them. A leman russ, rhino and Chimera are all about the same size, so I just keep a bunch of them in my bag when I play.

Also, can I have a linky for some of these things? I'd love to use up some printer paper on something half useful

I believe you will find something here: Klick me for template goodness

Scroll down to download section.

Cheers

I <3 U

Thanks! Checking out the baneblade one!

Anpu42 wrote:
Here is the worst I have ever seen

Awwww come on now! Thats even better than the original .

Samus_aran115 wrote:

I <3 U

Thanks! Checking out the baneblade one!

Always glad to be of service

Ordo Dakka wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:lulz. You guys care way too much about your game of army men. I have all the rhinos I need. I know others aren't necessarily as well off as I.

I often volunteer cardboard squares to my friends if they need them. A leman russ, rhino and Chimera are all about the same size, so I just keep a bunch of them in my bag when I play.

Also, can I have a linky for some of these things? I'd love to use up some printer paper on something half useful

God damn you can be condescending sometimes Samus.

What do you mean?

I'm condescending because I'm a nice guy and offer to give my opponent proxies to use? I don't understand :3

Ill agree with OP somewhat. 40K is a miniatures game, not a board and counter euro board game. If you want to play with a cheapo army in your own house or with your own friends then fine. However, showing up at a LGS or the like with an army that looks like a kindergarten craft project is just dumb.

Now, if someone slapped together a proxy for something just for a game or two to test it out with their army before they invested in a mini (esp the larger more expensive ones) then thats fine by me.

Mad4Minis wrote:board and counter euro board game

If i may.. what the hell is a euro board game?

Iron Angel wrote:

I believe you will find something here: Klick me for template goodness

Scroll down to download section.

Cheers

See now thats in a different class...those look pretty nice. I wouldnt fault someone who was financially challenged to use something like that. Same for someone who doesnt have the time/skills for building & painting an army. Those printed out and mounted on some heavy cardboard wouldnt be too bad at all.

It might look a bit silly against a regular minis army, but not terrible. Now if all the players in a group were using those it would be kinda cool. Hell, I may think about print up a couple armys for my wife, our older son, and I to use at home. One of the biggest things keeping me from doing a 40k army is the fact that I would have to build and paint 2 armys. The nearest players to me are an hour or more away, and although my wife is more than willing to play she isnt interested in the hobby end, leaving me on the hook for all of it.

EDIT: I was referring to the tyranids on that page. Im very tempted to do a couple armys like they did those.


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Iron Angel wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:board and counter euro board game

If i may.. what the hell is a euro board game?

Agricola, Puerto Rico, etc and other games styled like those. That style of game was started in Europe, and are called Euro games.

Sworth
If my posts have been interpreted as trolling then I am sorry

But I owe GW no loyalty and as long as I legally own copies of the rules then it is down to me what I use.
If I proxy matchsticks and chuddy ain't no bodies' business but my own.
Might never get a game that way but you get the gist.
If other people only accept 'eavy metal minis fresh from Notts that's their perogative and I ain't ever gonna say otherwise.

But
If someone comes along and starts dictating saying I can't play the game cos I don't have the rhino then I am going to be aggrieved.

I volunteer my own time, spend my own money and use my own materials so some kids can play wargames.
Some of these kids are really lucky and spend a decent wadge of tin on plastic.
Good luck to them. They are not all finished to the highest standards but they are just setting out.
Am I supposed to tell them to come back when thay are GD standard?
Obviously some people think so but they can go gakk themselves if they think I am not going to let them game with their models.

We have kids who want to collect but their parents won't let them because they can't afford it.
Again if certain people think I am going to reject them they can shove their Forgeworld resin Titans up their Titarses.
Sorry but that has touched a raw nerve.
I am not having a go at your OP which contains some valid grievances and tbh it is clearly taking the pee to persist with biro drawnings on bogrolls and out of line.



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Hail Caeser
very clever selecting a part finished piece of terrain that hasn't been used in that state
and selecting a part of a thread and taking out of context
And I said I wasn't qualified to assist you with your complex
never said owt about your amazing sculpt

Like I said before give some people time to produce the goods
Show your first minis if you are such a genius.

Mad4Minis wrote:
Agricola, Puerto Rico, etc and other games styled like those. That style of game was started in Europe, and are called Euro games.

Well i have never heard of those... maybe its because Europe is actually a bunch of different countries with sometimes different tastes (which is actually pretty cool, thanks GB for wargaming , Sharpe and Hornblower...)

No Worries, theres been a lot of negative undertones from several of the postings (mine included). Obviously there is a super fine line which many do not agree on, which is one of the main reasons why I thought it as relevant posting for discussion.

As said many times before it is ultimatley up to your opponent, and although I agree with what your saying to a degree, I think that at some point alot of the more interesting part of the hobby get lost by allowing individuals to do things such as this...(again I could be on either side of the fence for this but feel stronger about this side haha)

This is by no means a blanket statement even a bit even at all, but I do feel a valid argument for the future of this game.

On another note I do disagree with you saying you owe GW no loyalty, as without them pushing new rules, models, etc we would have none of this wonderful rich universe so many of us take for granted.....just my 2 cents and take it as you will....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and on a side note my first minis were horrendous.....for years even :lol:

Iron Angel wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:
Agricola, Puerto Rico, etc and other games styled like those. That style of game was started in Europe, and are called Euro games.

Well i have never heard of those... maybe its because Europe is actually a bunch of different countries with sometimes different tastes (which is actually pretty cool, thanks GB for wargaming , Sharpe and Hornblower...)

They are very popular games world wide. Not my thing, as Im a mini gamer and not so much of a board gamer.

They are reffered to as Euros ( by the board gaming community) because they were invented somewhere in Europe and gained popularity there before spreading to the rest of the world. Just as games originating in America (USA) are referred to as ameri-trash...especially by those who prefer the Euro style.

Now, to save some of my mini gamer cred...the only reason I know this is I have been a member of boardgamegeek.com for a while and have learned a bit about the board game community merely by accident. On the chance you havent heard of boardgamgeek before its worth a look...they have a quite comprehensive list of games, board, mini, rpg, etc. I find it a good place to check out games Ive never heard of before.

No. I doubt that they were horrible to you at the time.
Did anyone refuse you a game with those minis?

And for the record, I have never used paper other than to draw on.* Even the image used to illustrate what a crap modeller I am, was a WIP in plastic not paper as implied.
I grovel for forgiveness in my abject failure as a model maker.

One of the reasons I have never used paper is because of the incredible amount of work and patience required to build a model with them. Hats off to the guys that build them.
*and wipe my arse on the works of Virgil

Samus_aran115 wrote:I'm condescending because I'm a nice guy and offer to give my opponent proxies to use? I don't understand :3

No silly the army men thing :3

Ordo Dakka wrote:
No silly the army men thing :3

Well, is that not really all it is at the end of the day? Overgrown kids playing with their toy soldiers? I think it would help out everyone if we all just took a deep breath, considered the world, with all of it's troubles, and asked ourselves, "Does it really matter if someone is making army men out of cardstock somewhere?"

daedalus wrote:

Ordo Dakka wrote:
No silly the army men thing :3

Well, is that not really all it is at the end of the day? Overgrown kids playing with their toy soldiers? I think it would help out everyone if we all just took a deep breath, considered the world, with all of it's troubles, and asked ourselves, "Does it really matter if someone is making army men out of cardstock somewhere?"

Yeah I feel like that's okay...

But then I look at my army men that I spent hours working on to make look good, and paid hundreds of dollars for.

EDIT- I enjoy good cardstock builds, it's he pictures of models printed out and square tanks without detail or paint that bother me, Nothing wrong with the awesome template ones.

I would simply refuse to play an someone who was using half assed proxys or paper tanks.

I dont spend hours working to pay for my army then more time painting it ALL and then even more time to make decent terrain just so some douche can put some toilet rolls on the table.

Im sorry if that seems harsh but once you take the models out of the game you might aswell go play a video game.

I dont mind proper scarth built stuff ie not made outta paper at all howeve.r

I play games to play games.

I also paint my miniatures to a very high standard because I enjoy the craft and artistry and appreciate the same from other players.

I also appreciate people who play just to play a fun game with friends. Gaming isn't just the hobby, it's also a fun and social experience. Limiting yourself to one group of players for arbitrary reasons beyond fun and sportsmanship is, well, just limiting in a hobby/pastime that's already so limited.

The key is to not take it so personally when there is someone who just wants to play the game, as opposed to just the hobby.

There is no one way to do things in life.

@Augustus- I'm seeing your side of the argument less and less as this discussion progresses. As for your research into Chibi's abilities, here's a few other images from him (not in the gallery, in threads started):





Every modeller has to start somewhere, and clearly his artistic abilities are high.

One more example... Stump, my favorite orky converter on this site. Using for-sale signs for plasticard. Here are some WIPs of his second scratch-build:




And finished, along with one of his incredible later creations:




Your approach would have discouraged him from getting started, and we would not have the absolute gem of a deff dread shown above!

Gotta give people a chance, and scratch-building is an integral part of the hobby for many people. If it isn't for you, that's fine, but don't force that view on others... you can ignore the "deodorant tank" as much as you want, but this hobby hasn't always been about who can buy hundreds of dollars of forge world vehicles and the like (and Still isn't!). If someone is skilled or motivated enough to try scratch-building to a high level, more power to them!!! And as I said, everyone has to start somewhere.... your approach discourages them from even beginning!

Just my $0.02...

Interesting read here.

I think the only issue with using paper tanks at an LGS or a Games Workshop store is that you are using their facilities to play a game they sell while not contributing to the hobby. I understand that some people have money-related reasons and its up to the store owner to decide whether or not to let them play. A 12 year-old starting out on a budget of $10/week will be given very different consideration then someone who is simply taking advantage.

GW deserves no sympathy and their employees are simply following a business model. I never game in their stores because you're never anything but a customer there (wallet on legs). Its the LGS owners who put in time and effort into creating a community who need to be considered. I try and buy something every time I come to a new store or come back to an old one after an absence. I figure its the least I can do for all the time I spend gaming in there.

As far as the "I put in effort and you didn't" argument, I think that if it ruins the game for you then that is a legit reason to be angry. Everyone is different and the community is usually big enough to accomodate everyone. Just make sure that you don't ruin the other person's fun by being a dick. Live and let game.

I am fine with people builting their own stuff, but I have also seen folks who try to pass a pepsi can as a drop pod. I just can't get on the wagon with something like that.

As a side note, I started WFB when I was 11 and worked a paper route for a year before I could by the starter set for myself. I was a recent immigrant so even if my parents wanted to help they really couldn't. I don't know if its fair to say that anyone who wants it badly enough can do it though. It really is a hard call to make.

I think that's why the tensions run high on this issue- people are basically arguing about different things.

Sides "against"- Pepsi cans are not drop pods.

Side "for"- Incredible "For Sale sign" conversion tank (see above) is a legitimate scratch-build and should be accepted by everyone

I think we start to get our wires crossed and when you say "Don't use a pepsi can for a drop pod" I hear "That incredible scratch-build is illegitimate".

In the end, most of us probably agree more than it seems here. Sometimes the "in theory" part of threads like this tends to polarize people, when in the end I've noticed that most people in person have the same standards.

And no, I wouldn't allow a pepsi drop pod... although mountain dew is a bit closer to the mark (that's a joke, folks!)

What about a soda can defiler?