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I can accept temporary proxies or stand-ins for some models that are kinda crappy-looking, so long as it's only temporary...call me a snob if you want, but I can't accept the cardboard box with "land raider" written on it as a permanent addition to your army

I was saying that most people seem to agree with this and by implication that is not snobbery.

As for people considering me on the moral high ground, well so be it.
Beats being in an immoral swamp.

Ironically I'm not looking down on others. If you don't want to play someone on whatever grounds that is your perogative.
I don't have the desire or energy to prosletyise.
But don't start getting snotty and telling me what games I can and can't play.

Being able to afford what you want for the hobby is not an issue. The LOADSA MAANNEEE attitude of a conceited and vocal minority who want an exclusive club is.
Having said that, no one is forcing you to rub shoulders with the hoi poloi. You are welcome to play with yourselves.

I have been creeping the Dakka boards for some time now but never really had the urge to post, and I thought this would be a good time to start. It seems that this issue is almost as touchy as religion for most people. You would think that scratch-built miniatures is the gamer version of politics. I am sure that most people could care less about what I had to say, but I figured the same thing could be said about this thread. My intent is not to belittle people, I just thought I would give my two cents. Caution though, this may get a bit wordy.

This thread reminded me of a particular time at the store I play at. A little kid was dropped off by his mom so that he could play a game of 40k. He was likely around the age of 13, which is fairly young considering that playgroup. Given that I am 26 and considered a bit young, this kid was obviously not in his element. Regardless, it was clear that he was new to the game and had come up to play one of his first games. Everyone there knew what he was there for and you could tell that the kid was nervous to ask anyone to play. I finally went up to him and asked him if he wanted to play a game, and he awkwardly said yes. I got my miniatures out and got ready to deploy, as did he. During the process, the local group came over to inspect our soon to be game. The first thing that caught everyone's eye was the quality, or lack thereof, of his models. He had very few units that were fully assembled, and had poorly constructed boxes, and other scratch-built materials, that were used to substitute for tanks and what not. After talking with him, he clearly did not have a lot of money to spend for the hobby and did everything he could to trade for old models, which explained the lack of assembly on some of his units. The local group proceeds to laugh at the kid and pick up his models and pass them around as if the kid was a freak. Comments were made such as, "I would absolutely never allow such a thing in a game with me." To his credit, it took everything the kid had not to cry. The kid clearly wished he had the money, time, and experience to have a better looking army, but it was just something he had no control of. It is not like he did not try, and did not want to have a better looking squad, he just could not. I just smiled and politely told him that it did not bother me a bit and that he was more than welcome to use whatever he wanted. We played out our game, and when the local group finally buzzed off, the kid had a good time. His mom came to pick him up and she personally thanked me for allowing him to have a good time.

At that moment I promised myself that I would never allow myself to become so involved in this game to the point where I had such an outlook on what the other person was doing. At the end of the day, this is still just a miniature game involving elves, magic, dragons, and skeletons. Fantasy games such as this are fun for me, and I certainly hope that this hobby does not consume me to the point where I lose sight of that. People are literally saying how upset and distraught they are over how they would feel to play against someone with such models. If I were to ever get as upset as some of you claim to be, I would likely sell most of my models on Ebay the next day. I have enough stress in my life where I do not need another one involving a GAME FEATURING GOBLINS. I do not know about anyone else, but I feel no one really has a whole lot of room to judge on such a hobby.

I think a lot of it comes down to how far 'socially' removed people get. The local group that made those comments are so into the hobby that it is as much of a part of their life as their work and family is. I would certainly say that for a large portion of the group, the game is the number one driving point of their life. And there is nothing wrong with that, if that is what they wish to do, by all means. However, comments like that are usually said by the people who view this as more than a hobby. I suppose that if this game was my only source of entertainment, that drained all of my time and resources, I might be as touchy as well. And you are free to get upset at the quality of your opponents miniatures as much as you want, but you honestly should not get upset if they pack their stuff up and tell you to go .... yourself. I certainly know that I would, and would feel fairly justified in doing so. I have nothing against the hobby enthusiasts for this game, I just hope that I never get to the point where I start having this outlook on the game. Like WoW eventually got for me, it is time to step away when the game starts getting personal, and stops being fun.

A little wordy for my first post, but hopefully a good one.

-John

AvatarForm wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:

GW tourneys are GW ONLY kits.

If you are lucky to have a good TO who lets a 'counts as' play, great. So long as it represents the model in dimensions; equipment; etc.

There in lies the basis of your attitude towards the subject. Tourneys. IMO once someone starts getting obsessed with tourneys and needs everything to be "tourney legal" then they have changed prospectives on the game. It is no longer a friendly game to be enjoyed, it has now become a sport and any enjoyment of it is directly related to how many titles they have won.

Your assumption is incorrect.

GW (in this instance) creates a set of rules to be played with the appropriate minis (representation of the unit/character stats).

If you intend to proxy something, a piece of folded paper/cardboard box is insufficient. I could generalise here (like many of my opponents on the subject already have) and say MOST groups/clubs will not allow this.

Please, next time Im in the UK for work/leisure, Im happy to stop by Chibi's club and stomp his paper mache to pieces on the floor, afterall, it cost nothing. This also applies to shoeboxes/icecreambuckets and beer bottles (we had a beer bottle Greater Daemon show up to a tourney recently).

Overall I agree with not liking junk proxies such as bottles, cans, badly done paper, etc. The only instance is if someone is in a FLGS or home situation and says "hey, I want to test out XXX with my army before I buy the model". I could let that fly for a game.

My meaning in the statement to you was that not all situations should have to be tourney correct. Home and FLGS can and should be more forgiving, even still junk is junk period. See above statement.

As far as tourney play...thats different. Anyone who shows up for any kind of game labeled as a tournament, regardless of official GW or local club, should not show up with cans, bottles, paper models, etc. Thats a bit more seriously taken situation and should be treated as such.


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JohnHag wrote:I have been creeping the Dakka boards...A little wordy for my first post, but hopefully a good one.

Now that kid is a bit of an exception...hes not even old enough to work, I wouldnt expect him to have a lot of good stuff. I would actually feel really sorry for him.

As far as the game group...I also feel sorry for anyone who lets a hobby of any sort, games, sports, cars, etc rule their entire life. Between my time as a gamer and working in a game store Ive seen some truly sad people. RPG players seem to be the worst. The game word is inharently deeper and more detailed that tabletop games and Ive seen many who were simply lost in their fantasy world. Its all they ever talked about, everything they saw or heard became related to something in their game. Its pretty sad.

@JohnHag:

Well done, sir. Hell of a first post.

Unfortunately, for some, I'd say that Toy Soldiers is a religion, and GW is their god. It's disturbing to see how unreasonable people get when they forget it's just a game.

I'm glad I don't live in the same area that some of these people live going by what they're saying. They're either nerd-snobs or just internet John Waynes. One poster is even from Australia; you would think that if any group of individuals wouldn't have a problem with proxies and the like it would be our friends from the land of Oz considering how they get raked over the coals by GW's prices...

It's a GAME, keep your hobby away from my GAME table.

I would like to add to this topic that paper tanks are simply a different way to play a great game.

Myself, I really like the rules and concept of 40k, but often find it ridiculous to spend $60+ for a single vehicle in a miniature game that often requires more than 5 vehicles for a single game.

It could even be considered irresponsible from a global perspective to spend that much money on a single toy whereas in some country they make less than that amount each week to feed their whole family. The elitist position that some take regarding forcing others to spend as much as they do on the hobby is cruel an egoist. This great game should be spread to as many persons as possible. I personally want more casual players to get involved in this game, without the negative images carried with this game regarding the required investment.

On my end, I get stuff off ebay, discount stores, and sometimes from my gaming club. I also look at scratch building arms and bitz of vehicles since I find it futile to spend $8+ for a single weapon bit.

If someone makes some nice looking paper model that are a good representation of the actual model, good for them. The end state must be that it looks good and that it is not "shocking" for others.

The end state is, do you prefer playing with:

-a good player bringing whatever he can to play against you,
-whatever player with enough money to get good models to play against you

My pick is simple, I play the game, the hobby is simply an extra that should never become a social distinction between players.

Am I the only one who thinks this debate is going nowhere?

Lets just agree on disagreeing, and be done with it.

some people dont mind proxies and paper models. Others do. Actually there is nothing more to it.
People just have different openions.

Im sure we can start a new thread, where we discuss if you should bye an new car or an old car, and someone stating that if you cant afford a new car you shouldnt be driving at all.

People are people and we have different openions, but this is a waste of time.

I only see "scratchbuilding" a problem when you use other Non-GW models to "Count as". The example a few pages back about an Ork player using 1$ Plastic toy Firetrucks as Ork Trucks is a no, I wouldn't play against it. I've had a pick up game at my FLGS where a kid wanted to field quarters as Drones, and Gumdun toys as Broadside Suits, and so on.

I have no problem playing games with unpainted armies (The majority of people who play do not field fully painted armies, that's a rarity unless your at a tournament.), or even if the player wants to proxy a tank or two. When the guy wants to use random objects as models, no.


I game with two scratchbuilt Tervigons, and own a dozen or so Mycetic Spores. I've played with these scratchbuilts at two GT level events and numerous RTT events. Now, I've probably spent a few hours painting these, and putting effort into making them look tabletop worthy.





The Mycetic Spores are made of Hot Glue, a CD Base, and a paper towel roll.










The Tervigons are made from a handful of gaunts, a CD Base, Pink foam, and Hot Glue.




I've never had a problem with an opponent with my scratchbuilt models. Then again, for the models I scratchbuilt, there ARE no GW "Official" models for that unit. Unlike the Ork player with toy firetrucks.


Good read otherwise

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Which is what normal people aim for - good looking games.

I agree with this, however, when someone plonks crap on the table, they are not contributing to a 'good looking game'.

Paper tanks, cut and folded, not painted. Shoeboxes/cardboard boxes with words written all over them are not included in this.

We have already addressed many of the points you raised Howard, you are rehashing the same arguement.

@ChrisWWII - your points are rehashing the last 5 pages.


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agnosto wrote:I'm glad I don't live in the same area that some of these people live going by what they're saying. They're either nerd-snobs or just internet John Waynes. One poster is even from Australia; you would think that if any group of individuals wouldn't have a problem with proxies and the like it would be our friends from the land of Oz considering how they get raked over the coals by GW's prices...

It's a GAME, keep your hobby away from my GAME table.

What has being in Australia got to do with anything?

We can buy from Maelstrom and save more than USA RRP, including shipping.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

gorium wrote:I would like to add to this topic that paper tanks are simply a different way to play a great game.

Myself, I really like the rules and concept of 40k, but often find it ridiculous to spend $60+ for a single vehicle in a miniature game that often requires more than 5 vehicles for a single game.

It could even be considered irresponsible from a global perspective to spend that much money on a single toy whereas in some country they make less than that amount each week to feed their whole family. The elitist position that some take regarding forcing others to spend as much as they do on the hobby is cruel an egoist. This great game should be spread to as many persons as possible. I personally want more casual players to get involved in this game, without the negative images carried with this game regarding the required investment.

On my end, I get stuff off ebay, discount stores, and sometimes from my gaming club. I also look at scratch building arms and bitz of vehicles since I find it futile to spend $8+ for a single weapon bit.

If someone makes some nice looking paper model that are a good representation of the actual model, good for them. The end state must be that it looks good and that it is not "shocking" for others.

The end state is, do you prefer playing with:

-a good player bringing whatever he can to play against you,
-whatever player with enough money to get good models to play against you

My pick is simple, I play the game, the hobby is simply an extra that should never become a social distinction between players.

I agree. Warhammer and 40k systems are a financial commitment. However, your examples fail to recognise the different economies and costs of living in each.

Your arguement for a 'nice looking' model is fair. The problem has been with cheap rubbish 'counts as' that players wish to pass of on a continuing basis.

Yes it is a game, but I prefer to spend my time playing against players who have enough respect to put in the effort to present a 'nice looking' army on the tabletop.

As others have explained, its ok to proxy something until you can get the correct mini or a decent representation (if the model is not released) but there is a line.


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Auxellion wrote:Awesome scratchbuilds

There is nothing wrong with your efforts mate.

The problem that myself and others have expressed is when someone does not care nor respect the hobby/game enough to go to even a portion of the effort you have expended to represent models that are not in production.

Some even go to less effort to represent existing models.

I'm confused. All this fuss and fury and not one word about the Dark Eldar's paper tanks/ Am I on the wrong page?

AvatarForm wrote:We have already addressed many of the points you raised Howard, you are rehashing the same arguement.

As are you. I mean...

Your arguement for a 'nice looking' model is fair. The problem has been with cheap rubbish 'counts as' that players wish to pass of on a continuing basis.

How many people are actually arguing for long term use of poor proxies? The cardboard box substitute is for one-off games, for a forgotten model or for testing out something before purchase and even that is considered dubious in some circumstances. For long term use just about everyone agrees that there's no excuse for good quality models, bought or scratchbuilt to be fielded. Fielding a cardboard box time and again will not be looked upon kindly by pretty much anyone here.

Auxellion wrote:I only see "scratchbuilding" a problem when you use other Non-GW models to "Count as". The example a few pages back about an Ork player using 1$ Plastic toy Firetrucks as Ork Trucks is a no, I wouldn't play against it. I've had a pick up game at my FLGS where a kid wanted to field quarters as Drones, and Gumdun toys as Broadside Suits, and so on.

I have no problem playing games with unpainted armies (The majority of people who play do not field fully painted armies, that's a rarity unless your at a tournament.), or even if the player wants to proxy a tank or two. When the guy wants to use random objects as models, no.


I game with two scratchbuilt Tervigons, and own a dozen or so Mycetic Spores. I've played with these scratchbuilts at two GT level events and numerous RTT events. Now, I've probably spent a few hours painting these, and putting effort into making them look tabletop worthy.





The Mycetic Spores are made of Hot Glue, a CD Base, and a paper towel roll.










The Tervigons are made from a handful of gaunts, a CD Base, Pink foam, and Hot Glue.




I've never had a problem with an opponent with my scratchbuilt models. Then again, for the models I scratchbuilt, there ARE no GW "Official" models for that unit. Unlike the Ork player with toy firetrucks.


Good read otherwise

See thats cool there. Thats true scratchbuilding, there was real time and effort put into it.

As a matter of fact I can remember the days (mid-late 90s) when GW publications such as White Dwarf were full of articles on how to scratch build stuff...particularly scenery. They used to feature many conversions that used non GW parts. However as they have grown and expanded their offerings they have taken up the "everything has to be GW models and parts only" attitude. Fine and dandy, they are in business to sell products and make money. The people who have been drinking a little too much GW Kool-Aid and adopted the same strict attitude for all games everywhere is a little silly.

Auxellion wrote:I game with two scratchbuilt Tervigons, and own a dozen or so Mycetic Spores. I've played with these scratchbuilts at two GT level events and numerous RTT events. Now, I've probably spent a few hours painting these, and putting effort into making them look tabletop worthy.

What separates this from shoebox-with-landraider-written-on-it is very simple. Effort.

If it looks like you've tried then very few people will complain - even if the results aren't as good as your example.

Scott-S6 wrote:

What separates this from shoebox-with-landraider-written-on-it is very simple. Effort.

If it looks like you've tried then very few people will complain - even if the results aren't as good as your example.

Seconded. That's what I would base my approval of a model on too. If you took that shoebox, and took the time to cut it and play with it so it looked like a Land Raider, then painted it, I don't anyone would complain. It'd be the same as refusing to play someone because not all their models are Golden Daemon standard.

sworth9411 wrote:So lately I have seen a rising trend in making paper tanks based on GW designs and while I am all for scratch building this trend is starting to piss me off something fierce.....

I do not have any problem at all with someone building one up well with plasticard, painting it and using it, but what I am seeing is a growing trend of gamers making out of paper, foam board or similar glueing haphazardly and passing it off as a tank....

I am the first person the advocate using proxies, scratchbuilding minis, using model cars (Im looking at you ork players....) etc. etc. etc. but this current trend is sickening me.....

I for one am putting my foot down and refusing to play against people without at least a scrap of effort (hell we had a player with pipe cleaner models with googly eyes as count as bloodletters and I played him all the time without a problem) but this is getting ridiculous.....

Does anyone agree / disagree? Why or Why not......

I know I cant be the only only one who hates this type of attitude

Depends on how much effort is involved in the paper tanks. I've played folks with wooden tanks. Some days its better to play someone that puts alot of effort into paper tanks then the guy that has GW plastic ones that puts neither effort in converting nor painting(for whatever reason).

Very well lets continue.

To reiterate from a prior post:

Augustus wrote:by the OPs own admission,

Not talking about scratch built models
Not talking about meticulous constructed conversions
Not talking about kids
Not talking about new players
Talking about Land Raiders and Rhinos, NOT unavailable Model proxies, but copies...
It's appalling.

On with it:

Arnie_DK wrote:What a mud pitchin fight this have become....Just because you dont have the right gear, it doesnt mean you cant enjoy the game... And you are talking about a kid for crying out loud. A KID!...Lay down your golden spoon, and start having some fun.

And thats an order

You didn't even read the whole thread, by your own admission.

We are not talking about kids. We are talking about paper copy substitutions from the original posters own post and follow on. How about encouraging a higher standard all round? Kids included. How about reading whole threads before coming to conclusions.

Arnie_DK wrote:Am I the only one who thinks this debate is going nowhere?...People are people and we have different openions, but this is a waste of time.

Just because you are done with the thread doesn't mean everyone else is, feel free to move along Sarge. Maybe attitudes like this are why low standards are becoming accepted because everyone is more concerned with making people feel good about themselves and being apologists than calling things like they are, even in the Army.



This is cool, this is a scratchbuild, but see above, not what we are talking about, this isn't a paper copy of an existing kit. Linking these 2 issues Off Topic, is about all the posters on the side of 'paper tanks' can do to give the concept any legitimacy. This is what we are talking about:

agnosto wrote:So... nobody would like this?

From experienced players:

sworth9411 wrote:...When it comes to paper models let me be more clear as to what I was referencing;

A group of gamers (not newbies people whove been in it for several years) took it upon themelves to scribble outlines of rhinos land raiders etc on notebook paper, tape them up and field them as playable models. I have heard from alot of my friends across the country and across the pond that these paper tanks are a growing trend in their communities as well, especially ones printed off the internet.

Avatar Form has it:

AvatarForm wrote:Paper tanks are not a scratchbuild. They are a template printed off a website in order to circumvent the commercial side of a hobby.

AvatarForm wrote:+1, exactly.

Hobbies are not a necessity. If you cannot afford it, return when you can or play at home.

If I invest in the appropriate models to represent and actually base and paint mine... and you arrive with LEGO or your space marines glued to bases, without arms even...

Glad to not be the only one who gets it. Thanks!

AvatarForm wrote:Lastly, but not least, if I can earn more than the average Gamer/Hobbyist through hard work and superior economic situation, this does not make me a 'Snob' to call it like it is.

I see your Consensus and raise you Common Sense.

BAM!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:We have already a consensus by large that other than a temporary proxy, the shoebox is not acceptable.

Glad to hear you say this (at least).

On to the real gem. Welcome to Dakka John

JohnHag wrote:...A little kid was dropped off by his mom so that he could play a game of 40k. He was likely around the age of 13,

Ok I am stopping right here, the rest of this bleeding heart foolishness doesn't matter. Defending this sort of bad parenting is appalling. Why are parents dropping 13 year olds at stores so they can be baby sat? Anyone else see the problem here, not that older players are condescending but that some idiot parents are pawning their kids off at a store to have fun all day with the wrong gear and no idea of how to play the game? That's what ruins stores! Parental neglect is not the theme of this thread. This whole story is a disgusting sappy bleeding heart sympathy bait and switch.

JohnHag wrote:The local group proceeds to laugh at the kid and pick up his models and pass them around as if the kid was a freak. Comments were made such as, "I would absolutely never allow such a thing in a game with me." To his credit, it took everything the kid had not to cry. The kid clearly wished he had the money, time, and experience to have a better looking army, but it was just something he had no control of.

Perfect, with a little luck he would never have come back.

Terse?

Of course, here's some perspective:

Mom drops 13 year old off at Dave and Busters with no supervision and insuficient resources. Kid has nothing to, staff asks kid not to loiter. Kid wanders into bar, kid asks people for tokens. Kid is kicked out.

OMG THE MEAN PEEPLZ 4 KEEPN THE KIDZ OWT ZOMG THE MEENZOR....

get it? Just because the hobby may appeal to young people doesn't mean it's a babysitting service where they have space to play.

Also see above, this thread isn't about kids! It's about experienced players using proxy models made of paper!

JohnHag wrote:His mom came to pick him up and she personally thanked me for allowing him to have a good time.

I hope she was a very nice milf!

gorium wrote:It could even be considered irresponsible from a global perspective to spend that much money on a single toy whereas in some country they make less than that amount each week to feed their whole family.

Please sell your army and donate it to charity. This the 'paper tanks' thread not the class struggle thread.

(AWESOME TYRANID SPORE PODS with a big image)

These are first class! Well done, play you anytime, and be honored to do it!
I wanted to throw out some praise and also beat this into the ground, these are NOT PAPER COPIES!

Scott-S6 wrote:What separates this from shoebox-with-landraider-written-on-it is very simple. Effort.

If it looks like you've tried then very few people will complain - even if the results aren't as good as your example.

Wrong, what separates these is that the models for spore pods don't exist!

What is so fundamentally wrong with scratchbuilding a copy of a model? Without resorting to talk of 'tournament' rules or 'IP' please.

I don't personally see it as being worthwhile for the cheaper kits, but you're onto a looser if you're arguing against bigger models, around half of the Warhound Titan builds on here are scratchbuilds, probably from the same set of plans and look very close to the real thing.

What's the logic? If you want to scratch build a model of something it shouldn't look like the standard kit? Then you'll probably complain it's either the wrong size/shape for gaming or otherwise isn't a suitable representation of the piece it's playing.

Ahhh, I think we all have gotten a bit off topic then. If we're talking about that photo where the guy is fielding an army of paper tyranid cut outs glued to a base? I can't see how'd that fly anywhere. I think Augustus has hit this topic right on the head.

Augustus wrote:(AWESOME TYRANID SPORE PODS with a big image)

These are first class! Well done, play you anytime, and be honored to do it!
I wanted to throw out some praise and also beat this into the ground, these are NOT PAPER COPIES!

Scott-S6 wrote:What separates this from shoebox-with-landraider-written-on-it is very simple. Effort.
If it looks like you've tried then very few people will complain - even if the results aren't as good as your example.

Wrong, what separates these is that the models for spore pods don't exist!

So you'd have a problem with them if there was a spore pod model? I don't see what the availability of an official model has to do with it.

Howard A Treesong wrote:What is so fundamentally wrong with scratchbuilding a copy of a model? Without resorting to talk of 'tournament' rules or 'IP' please.

It doesn't support the community.

Could you play at home and love the game with all home made everything? Sure. This wouldn't keep an LGS around though.

These next parts are a bit more esoteric.

Using paper copies deprives the player of the heart and soul of the hobby, making and painting models!

40k could easily be a board game and work just fine mechanically, some minis games even started that way. But making paper models and playing never allows for the awesome satisfaction of actually crafting some of the best models in the world, painting, kitbashing, converting, posing etc. all the wonderful reasons you get into a minis game in the first place.

Using paper copies and playing privately never allows for the greatness of sharing art.

You have to share art for it to be great! That's where the virtue is! What point would there be to compose the best song, or best painting or wargame ever if the creator was the last man in creation? These things ought to be shared!

What's the logic?

I tried to give you an honest answer, in spite of my initial reaction to write, 'explain to me, without reference to ethics or law why theft is bad'. This little bit at the end is only intended to illustrate that the case of (100% complete) copying as a legitimate issue.

Augustus wrote:
/BOOM! HEADSHOT!

Scott-S6; ChrisWWII; Howard A Treesong; and the rest of the bleeding hearts please release and run back form the GY. You wiped the raid.

/thread

I'm still perfectly in favor of playing someone who can't afford the models right now with a temporary proxy. Emphasis on the word temporary. If you come in and say, 'Hey, I want to test this list with a LR, but I can't buy one yet." Or better yet. "I bought it, but it's still in shipment." I'd play him with the cardboard box. Now, if he says, "Yeah, a Land Raider is too expensive. I'm just using a tissue box." THAT I wouldn't tolerate.

I don't know about you, but I like getting kids into the hobby. If the parents a bad parent....well that's their fault. I don't consider it being a bleeding heart to be nice to a new player, especially one whose very excited about some cool unit he's read about and wants to proxy. I'll cut a kid a bit more slack than I would an older player. The point is, there's a difference between being nice to a new player, and being a bleeding heart crying that it's unfair class snobbery to get pissed at a cardboard Land Raider.

I guess if we have wine snobs we can have toy soldier snobs.

Durzod wrote:I guess if we have wine snobs we can have toy soldier snobs.

So it's snobby to want to play against good looking minis, not a tissue box?

ChrisWWII wrote:I'm still perfectly in favor of playing someone who can't afford the models right now with a temporary proxy. Emphasis on the word temporary. If you come in and say, 'Hey, I want to test this list with a LR, but I can't buy one yet." Or better yet. "I bought it, but it's still in shipment." I'd play him with the cardboard box. Now, if he says, "Yeah, a Land Raider is too expensive. I'm just using a tissue box." THAT I wouldn't tolerate.

I don't know about you, but I like getting kids into the hobby. If the parents a bad parent....well that's their fault. I don't consider it being a bleeding heart to be nice to a new player, especially one whose very excited about some cool unit he's read about and wants to proxy. I'll cut a kid a bit more slack than I would an older player. The point is, there's a difference between being nice to a new player, and being a bleeding heart crying that it's unfair class snobbery to get pissed at a cardboard Land Raider.

Yes, but what we are trying to explain is this is not about TEMPORARY proxies... this is about players who want to substitute a printed out cut out that they have folded and labelled/drawn and outline on...

Not scratch builds; not alternate gaming lines; not temps.

AvatarForm wrote:Yes, but what we are trying to explain is this is not about TEMPORARY proxies... this is about players who want to substitute a printed out cut out that they have folded and labelled/drawn and outline on...

Not scratch builds; not alternate gaming lines; not temps.

If you've been reading my posts you'll realise I'm interested in games looking good. Paper models can look very good when built properly. I don't support a sloppily put together paper model any more than a sloppily built model. If paper models look rubbish then they shouldn't be anything more then a temporary proxy, but the two opposing viewpoints I'm dealing with here are that paper models are apparently rubbish by virtue of the fact they are paper/card. Which simply isn't true because some are built to a very high standard. The other viewpoint is that by scratchbuilding a model of a kit that exists you are morally wrong, you are violating IP and quite simply, you shouldn't be allowed to scratchbuild something regardless of quality and field a it if you can buy it in a shop for £30.

If it's an argument about quality then I'm behind you. I don't want to see rubbish being fielded time and again because I'm a person who only uses painted miniatures for a start. But I don't accept that all paper models are inherently rubbish, and I don't accept the worth of an argument based on violating IP and 'not supporting the community'. Someone building a model of a tank probably has a heap of figures which they have bought from a store. Well built paper models would usually supplement an army which is being bought from a store, I don't believe in an all or nothing approach to gaming, you can mix normal figures with scratchbuilds. Which seems to suggest that if you scratchbuild a model you are depriving someone of a sale. Well I'm considering scratchbuilding some of forgeworld's fancier items, but whether I go ahead or not makes no difference to the fact that I will never drop £300 on a titan.

Hi folks.
I think the problem is NON GW games tend to be less product line orentated.
So people a quite happy to use anything they like to try out the rules.
And if the like them they MAY buy or scratch build somthing to play the rules on a regular basis.

40k and WHFB are VERY dependant on the strong asthetics to carry the 'less than stella' rules sets.

GW plc charge a premium price for thier models.
As they promote a good looking game , over a great playing game.

So MOST GW gamers feel impelled to part with cash to follow the expencive GW example armies.

Because without the cool looking models ,(bought or scratch built-converted), the experiance is not that good , comparativley.

I have played great games with bits of paper /card/balsa wood.
The 'proper models ' just enhanced the experiance.

With 40k the proper models tend to 'be' the majority of the experiance .

This is the dichotemy in this thread IMO.

In other game systems systems the models are the icing on the cake.(An asthetic layer than enhances the appearance.)
With 40k the models are the cake, and the rules are just the icing on the cake!(Acording to JJ)

TTFN

AvatarForm wrote:

Yes, but what we are trying to explain is this is not about TEMPORARY proxies... this is about players who want to substitute a printed out cut out that they have folded and labelled/drawn and outline on...

Not scratch builds; not alternate gaming lines; not temps.

I was replying mostly to Augustus, who had made the bleeding heart a main point of his refutation, and I was replying to him in particular. I fully understand that it's about paper models, and my status is that I don't mind. IN a way, a paper model IS a scratch build, as you are building a model without a GW model as a base. I'm perfectly happy to play against a paper model, as long as it's clear you've tried to make that model resemble the real thing.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:Yes, but what we are trying to explain is this is not about TEMPORARY proxies... this is about players who want to substitute a printed out cut out that they have folded and labelled/drawn and outline on...

Not scratch builds; not alternate gaming lines; not temps.

If you've been reading my posts you'll realise I'm interested in games looking good. Paper models can look very good when built properly. I don't support a sloppily put together paper model any more than a sloppily built model. If paper models look rubbish then they shouldn't be anything more then a temporary proxy, but the two opposing viewpoints I'm dealing with here are that paper models are apparently rubbish by virtue of the fact they are paper/card. Which simply isn't true because some are built to a very high standard. The other viewpoint is that by scratchbuilding a model of a kit that exists you are morally wrong, you are violating IP and quite simply, you shouldn't be allowed to scratchbuild something regardless of quality and field a it if you can buy it in a shop for £30.

If it's an argument about quality then I'm behind you. I don't want to see rubbish being fielded time and again because I'm a person who only uses painted miniatures for a start. But I don't accept that all paper models are inherently rubbish, and I don't accept the worth of an argument based on violating IP and 'not supporting the community'. Someone building a model of a tank probably has a heap of figures which they have bought from a store. Well built paper models would usually supplement an army which is being bought from a store, I don't believe in an all or nothing approach to gaming, you can mix normal figures with scratchbuilds. Which seems to suggest that if you scratchbuild a model you are depriving someone of a sale. Well I'm considering scratchbuilding some of forgeworld's fancier items, but whether I go ahead or not makes no difference to the fact that I will never drop £300 on a titan.

Howard, my post was in response to Chris... however, given that you both seem to post immediately after eachother, my theory is this:

1. You are the same person posting under different accounts in order to add 'weight' to your shared viewpoints. In this instance you seem to have confused which account you were posting from when responding.

2. You are 2 separate individuals who thread-stalk eachother...

Im not sure which ne is more strange...

Or, we're two separate people who happen to be signed on and posting at the same time? I note you seem to have stopped debating in order to make snide comments....