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Not to mention, the Land Raider Crusader wasn't completely locked to Black Templars. Other chapters got it on a 0-1 limit. I'd kill for a Baal Predator, a single Baal Predator, for my Salamanders. It would get me playing the army again.

Just Dave wrote:If you are going to argue my being 'wrong' over a single word, then you could similarly complain about how the golden armoured jesus or that TWC actually have no thunder

LMAO

I think there's nothing bad about the new Codex: Blood Angels-- all the GW haters just have to find new things to complain about now that Codex Creep doesn't really exist.

So you've not read the fluff then? Or do you just not have an opinion on any of it?

Mainly fluff. It has superseded the Space Marine codex for the most idiotic crap ever put down in ink.

Other than that, it's a neat codex, especially for people wanting to run counts-as lists. You can do armor heavy, dread heavy, jumppack heavy, skimmer heavy, etc. There are a lot of opportunities for theme lists and representing some more niche chapters, whether they be Chaos or Loyalist.

BrotherStynier wrote:So you've not read the fluff then? Or do you just not have an opinion on any of it?

The fluff is fine. There are a few silly/corny things, but there's silly/corny fluff in every Codex, and if you look past those details, the main fluff about the structure and legacy of the BA is really quite good.

I suppose you're right about the Structure, but some of it is still a little too much for me.

I do think the army itself would be a fun one to use for counts as simply for the options. I'll just avoid most of the fluff.

What about the Bloody Blood Blood Blood of Blood Chalice's Blood Lance Blood?

Honestly? There's nothing that can top the fluff stupidity of Thunderwolf Cavalry. I'm really not even sure why all you Space Wolf guys are trying.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Try fielding both armies with a full 6 10-man Tactical Squads in Rhinos as their army core, and the SM one will do better.

Why do you think this is true? The difference in the two lists is <100 pts. and I think that most people would agree that making all your rhinos fast vehicles is worth the extra cost. Is there something I am missing? I can't see combat tactics being the difference maker here so where does the advantage come from?

BrotherStynier wrote:I do think the army itself would be a fun one to use for counts as simply for the options.

This is one of the problems that has been brought up earlier in this thread. You're completely correct with this idea. Why would you not run vanilla marines as BA? They have access to very nearly the whole marine codex and a ton of extra options. I don't think there is anything necessarily "broken" about this but it does, to me at any rate, point to poor codex design. Why design a codex that is far superior, except in some limited situations, to the one it is based off of?

BrotherStynier wrote:I still think the only OTT fluff in the Space Wolves Book is the single blurb about them driving Land Raiders across the bottom of the Ocean and fighting Crisis Battle Suits fitted with Propellers.

Oh. My. God. That is so win.

It did make me wanna create both an under water Tau Army and Space Wolf Army.

Whoever said that the overcharged engines aren't free is actually wrong, if you take assault squads with razorbacks you get them CHEAPER than Codex Marines.

FaarisShazad wrote:So, you guys don't think these kinds of codexes are setting the standard for the rest of the other codex remakes? In a few months you'll all be saying dark eldar are OTT, then grey knights, then necrons or tau or WHATEVER. Pretty much any new codex has ushered in a whole new wave of craziness.. so why get your knickers in a twist over it when they're just going to make a new codex that goes even further down the road of insanity?
If you want some measure of control over it, apply for a job with GW. I'm sure there's a "fluff/rule nazi" division with a few vacancies

I think the new Codices have indeed been setting a standard, that that's a good standard, and that GW should keep making Codices like the new Blood Angels (or Tyranids, or Space Wolves, or Imperial Guard, or Space Marines, or Orks...) Codex. If things keep up the way they've been going, that'd be great-- after all, 40k is getting better.

Agreed the new codices are much better then the old ones. It can only help to reinvigorate gaming.

I'm thinking that the whole DSing LR thing will be forgotten soon enough, not single person in the tournament metagame would try it for reasons that are obvious. While casual players might use it from time-to-time, they'll probably be tired of it after a few mishaps.

The Necron thing is just odd, easily fixed; next BA novel features 'crons as hostiles and no 'nids there to help force any kind of cooperation. Heck the Deciever can pose as the Sanguinor for the lulz.

The "Blood" thingy was just horrible. Space Wolves have that "Wolf" thingy, but if you going back to the 3rd edition codex its more a case that they venerate the wolf in the same way that certain tribal groups would venerate the bear or the jaguar. The whole 'Bloody McBlood-Gore" thing makes it seem like they have a guro/vore fetish.

Sure some of their gear is a little OP, but there are downsides, for one thing it makes BA players more likely to take cookie-cutters, and at their core they're still MEQ which means most anti-MEQ strategies will still work.

The dreads and special characters are a different matter entirely, but with the first 4 pages on characters in SM codex and the same for SW, kicking up a big fuss about OP chars is like teens rebelling in Che t-shirts, its been going on so long but people don't realize that, like how the younger Baby-Boomers wore that same shirt with that same photo at the same age back in the late 60s and 70s.

The dreads are... well I think the BA should just have had DC as an upgrade and the Furiouso dreadnought replacing the Ironclad's spot. Dreadnought spam is something that seems believable with techno-fetishist Ironhands, not the Angel-Edward wannabes with anger-management issues.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Although that's purely the fault of Gav and Alessio.

What was it you called them in your CSM review?

Edit: Found it!

Weirdly, other than the 'failure' gag, I wasn't lying about that. My spellchecker did know "Alessio" and "Cavatore", but "Gav" and "Thorpe" completely threw it.

Just Dave wrote:For what it's worth I've never nerd-raged, although I am fairly impressed by your arrogance.

Welcome to the club.

Y'see Just Dave, John is one of the group we call the "WRONGBADFUNs", a group of people who 'patrol' the boards instructing others on how they should enjoy the hobby, or that the way that they enjoy their hobby is incorrect. There are others like him around the place. They're annoying, but easily ignored.

Really it was only a matter of time before he showed up to ruin everyone's fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eyclonus wrote:I'm thinking that the whole DSing LR thing will be forgotten soon enough, not single person in the tournament metagame would try it for reasons that are obvious. While casual players might use it from time-to-time, they'll probably be tired of it after a few mishaps.

It's not the application (or even the in-game use) of DSing Land Raiders that is the problem - it's the concept and Matt Ward's justification for it.

1. Why do only the BA's get Deep Striking Land Raiders? If it is technological, how does it work, and what makes it unique? If it is doctrinal, why does no one else try it?
2. His justification was that the BA's always advance forward and go for the throat (or words to that effect), so they can... Deep Strike Land Raiders? There's a disconnect. If they're bringing them in via Thunderhawk Transporter (a completely reasonable thing to do), then are they the only Chapter (ignoring successors) to sue Thunderhawk Transporters in this way?

Yes, DSing Land Raiders in a game is stupid and very few people would actually every do it, but as I said, we're not talking about the rules, we're talking about the in-universe reasons.

When a writer comes up with justification that essentially amounts to "they chuck the tank out of an airplane," you have to wonder if said writer has just stopped caring.

Watch, next we'll see a canon example of the Sanguinor surfing on a Land Raider carried by four flying psyker Dreadnoughts, and we'll know that Matt Ward just doesn't give a gak anymore.

I wouldn't worry too much about that.

There's a chance that once his contract is up, he'll either not be writing Codices, or heading back to Fantasy rules writing.

SaintHazard wrote:
Watch, next we'll see a canon example of the Sanguinor surfing on a Land Raider carried by four flying psyker Dreadnoughts, and we'll know that Matt Ward just doesn't give a gak anymore.

Oh man. Let's hope not. I said earlier in this thread that nothing trumps Space Marines riding into battle on wolves in terms of fluff stupidity, and that would come close.

Psyker Dreadnoughts that can transport one Land Raider, and use it as an extra CCW.

A Vindicator that, instead of a Demolisher, has a cannon that shoots Death Company.

An IC that removes itself as a casualty and places the large blast marker where the model used to be - anything under the marker takes a strength 10 hit as it explodes because it cannot contain all of its awesome.

Jump pack infantry that, when deep striking, may scatter on top of enemy units and cause the enemy units to mishap.

You heard it here first.

My main upset about Blood Angels (I used to love their 3rd ed Codex, though.. for fluff!!) are the fast vehicles.. from my point of view the biggest advantage they got.. remember over-charged engines of the old rhinos (and salamander scout vehicles, for the imperial armour nerds), you had a chance to go +6 inch at the exchange of a difficult terrain test, and no shooting whatsoever.
I could have accepted fast Rhinos, maybe agile predators & Razorbacks ("Agile" aka 12 inch movement: 1 primary + unlimited secondary, 6 inch movement every weapon).... but i cannot stand 18 inch cruisin' Vindicators...

Deep Strike of Landraider reminds of of "Operation Pennydrop" http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=penny_drop....
I see Dante sitting on a orbital command bridge saying "Who, we're so f*cking rich, we use armor of pure gold, and we have soooo many Land Raiders (remember only 2! Terminator Squads (1 Assault) of vanillas could have one as dedicated Transport, Rest used up Heavy Slots) we can just drop it on the enemy! Reversed Mawloc anyone??"

With the whole DS Land Raider, A fluff Reason on why only the Blood Angels can do it is every other Space marine (Inclduing the Wolves) Is either actually sane or not completly slowed.

Seaward wrote:Honestly? There's nothing that can top the fluff stupidity of Thunderwolf Cavalry. I'm really not even sure why all you Space Wolf guys are trying.

You're just mad your dog doesn't eat polar bears.

Seaward wrote:Honestly? There's nothing that can top the fluff stupidity of Thunderwolf Cavalry.

OK, the Thunderwolf Cavalry do REALLY suck in fluff terms, I think we can all agree that giant wolves being ridden into battle by huge, heavy superhuman warriors is ridiculous even for Warhammer. And as really bad as the idea is, it still - IMO - pales in comparison to the sheer amount of 'fluff stupidity' in the Blood Angel Codex.

EVEN Thunderwolves aren't as stupid or OTT as the combined idea of Flying Landraiders (sorry JHDD, deep-striking Landraiders), Flying Dreadnoughts, Mephiston Statistics, Sanguinor, 5 types of veterans and Necron Bromance.


In terms of fluff-stupidity. IF, IF Thunderwolf Cavalry did exist and were some of the deadliest predators on Fenris, then it would make sense for Space Wolves to use them. It fits the wolf obsession and because of the alpha/pack nature of TWC they are tameable. People used to use War-Elephants for a reason.
Its a bad idea, but if they did exist as they are said to in the Codex then 'using' them would make SOME sense.

However, I fail to see the sense of Blood Angels having access to the heaviest standard-battle-tanks in the Imperium (Land Raiders) and chucking them out of Land Raiders at high velocity. Combine this with keeping Storm-ravens and over-charged STC to yourself and there is even more fluff-stupidity there.

If TWC did exist then it would make SOME sense to use them. It doesn't however make sense to throw huge battle tanks out of a Thunderhawk nor to keep valuable technology to yourself despite mankind fighting for its very survival.

As I said, I'm not defending TWC and I completely agree it's a stupid idea, however Blood Angels take it even further and completely remove it from logic.
Blood Angels are what Thunderwolf Cavalry are to Fenrisian Wolves.
Too Stupid, too OTT and one step too far.
I'm saying it again though in the hope of you listening to this, TWC is a really bad idea, but the Blood Angels (at least combined) take it even further IMO...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Just Dave wrote:For what it's worth I've never nerd-raged, although I am fairly impressed by your arrogance.

Welcome to the club.

Y'see Just Dave, John is one of the group we call the "WRONGBADFUNs", a group of people who 'patrol' the boards instructing others on how they should enjoy the hobby, or that the way that they enjoy their hobby is incorrect. There are others like him around the place. They're annoying, but easily ignored.

Really it was only a matter of time before he showed up to ruin everyone's fun.

thanks man, I think. I feel very welcomed.

I had seen your beef with John before but I had never really seen why. Now though...
It wasn't so much that he told me how to enjoy the hobby, it's that he (appeared) to simply argue for no reason. He barely had an argument to defend. It's simply rude and arrogant IMHO, no-one gets away with that IRL but hey I'll leave that there... *sorry Mods*

I happen to agree with Seaward on that one. I really hate Thunderwolves.

Really really really hate them.

Orcs and goblins riding Wargs, in a fantasy setting, I can handle. I liked it better when Orcs rode War Pigs, but Wargs are *acceptable*. Translate that to Humans, and it gets silly. Put that human in power armor, give him a gun, and put him on a THUNDARRWULFFF, and suddenly it gets irreparably stupid.

Deck him out in Wolf Armor, give him a Wolf Sword of Wolf, have him wear a Wolf Tooth Wolflace, and name him Wolf Wolfborn, and you've got the Space Wolves codex - irreparable stupid turned up to 11.

I don't know. I've always had a soft spot for human riding huge wolves/dogs. It's probably a throw back to S.M. Stirling and David Drakes Raj Whitehall series but I think it's pretty damn cool. Granted none of the people riding the enormous dogs in that series were 8 feet tall and wearing super heavy army but I can see "enhancing" riding dogs to that point.

Personally I don't have a problem with any of the fluff from either book. I use my own imagination to fill in holes or to make things work out and don't think about it that much. Then again I don't see the need to spend my time getting worked up about the story line of a fictional game.

@Just Dave: Dude, I get that you think your stupid Woofs are better than Blud. I think Woofs are stupider. No biggie, and nothing for you to get your panties in such a twist.

I don't think that you're "wrong" per se. I think that you need to chill out a bit over stories and rules for toy soldiers.

I totally get that you're exaggerating over "flying Land Raiders", but if it takes exaggeration to make your point, maybe your point isn't that strong to begin with. Deep-striking Land Raiders are novel and unique, but not really strong or OP, so who cares? Do you want to complain how Possessed get their special ability post-deployment - similarly unique and wierd, and potentially (but very rarely) broken?

There's nothing obviously unique about TWC at all. If UMs decided ride Mammoths into battle, or if Salamanders decided to ride Stegadon Ancients into battle, I wonder what they'd count as... If you've ever been to a factory, you'd know it takes time to set up a production line. Maybe that's why it took years for the LRC to trickle out, and same with the SRG. But yeah, go back and read C: Armag about how rare the LRCs are.

It's a fecking game, dude. No need to be so mad. Just enjoy the game.

Blood for the Corpse-God! Wolf Skulls for the Golden Throne!