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Seaward wrote:Honestly? There's nothing that can top the fluff stupidity of Thunderwolf Cavalry. I'm really not even sure why all you Space Wolf guys are trying.

So that people spend less time pointing at the sheer amount of obvious ridiculousness in their Codex?

It's wierd, because *everything* GW writes has a bunch of stupidity that requires a high level of suspension of disbelief. All this kind of finger-pointing does is get people to focus on the ridiculousness of the entire game universe, which is ultimately detrimental to enjoying the game.
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andain841 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Try fielding both armies with a full 6 10-man Tactical Squads in Rhinos as their army core, and the SM one will do better.

Why do you think this is true? The difference in the two lists is <100 pts.

and I think that most people would agree that making all your rhinos fast vehicles is worth the extra cost. Is there something I am missing?

I can't see combat tactics being the difference maker here so where does the advantage come from?

100 pts is 100 pts - that's an extra Hero or whatever. More / extra stuff on the board is always better.

Fast Rhinos are nice, but for delivering Boltermarine Tacticals? Not so much, I think. At least, not like Fast Razors / Preds / Vindis.

I see it as saving points for essentially identical forces, with more tactical flexibility on the board.
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Iur_tae_mont wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:I still think the only OTT fluff in the Space Wolves Book is the single blurb about them driving Land Raiders across the bottom of the Ocean and fighting Crisis Battle Suits fitted with Propellers.

Oh. My. God. That is so win.

Or ridiculous FAIL, depending on one's POV.

JHDD,
It's not the game that I'm 'mad' about, nor is it the Blood Angels codex. The reason I apparently have my 'panties in such a twist' is - quite frankly - your arrogance.
You have no idea quite how little I play the hobby, nor care for it. I just try to help others and engage with the back-ground yet you claim for me to have been worked up about it. In fact it's you seeming to ignore what I or others say and simply argue and - as they say on the internetz - 'flame'. Maybe I did act overly-aggressively or whatever, I admit it. I had just got back from a night out so I wasn't exactly the most awake I could be. However you encouraged me to act in such a way with your comments and you've done it again. Maybe you intend to, maybe you're just a very argumental and aggressive person, I don't know nor do I care.
It doesn't change the fact that you appear to drop your 'argument' and respond in such a way that I look like the idiot, claiming me to have my panties in a twist etc. in a blatant attempt to wind me up. Targeting my comments despite that they support what so many others have said in this very thread.

yet once again you ignored what I said. I didn't argue 'flying' Land Raiders to be over-powered. Where they differ from possessed is that the reasoning behind possessed makes sense. Whether you choose to admit it or not you just pointed out how rare LR's are and how 'it took years for the LRC to trickle out', yet then again you simultaneously defend the idea of throwing them out of high-speed aircraft into the face of the enemy?
I repeatedly accept the flaws of the TWC and the Space Wolf Codex, however I similarly criticise the even more common flaws of the BA codex. You however seem to ignore anything I say except for that which you can exploit or use in an attempt to wind me up.
As you so acutely said, it's a game, no need to be so mad. I never really had a problem with your nor anyone else on Dakka as it is just a game, a game which I'm increasingly detached from. now however I see what H.B.M.C was getting at. It's not the game that bothers me, nor was it the game that 'got my panties in a twist'.

Don't hate the game, hate the players.

Exactly what I was getting at.

@Dave: Sorry if you think I was trying to get a rise out of you. You seemed to be way too mad over a silly game. Sorry, again.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Dave: Sorry if you think I was trying to get a rise out of you. You seemed to be way too mad over a silly game. Sorry, again.

Irony rears its ugly head once again, with a silly grin on its face, tongue hanging out one side of its equine muzzle. Across the winds, the cries of a thousand logicians may be heard, as they suddenly feel a stabbing pain in their chest - unknowing of its origin... knowing only that somewhere, somehow, logic is being raped.

Apology Accepted Man, sorry if I was over aggressive.

Underwater Land Raiders fighting Tau with Propellers.

I liked the game better when it was sci fi, but not tongue in cheek. On the bright side, it's not devolved into a bunch of pop culture references like some games I know.

Fortunately, the main armies don't seem to have stupid crap like this, though I'm still not over Ultramar's realm being perfect worlds of perfectness.

M.

Infantryman wrote:
I liked the game better when it was sci fi, but not tongue in cheek.

When, in the history of the game, did such a phase exist?

40k has always be saturated with camp.

Just Dave wrote:
EVEN Thunderwolves aren't as stupid or OTT as the combined idea of Flying Landraiders (sorry JHDD, deep-striking Landraiders), Flying Dreadnoughts, Mephiston Statistics, Sanguinor, 5 types of veterans and Necron Bromance.

Deep-striking Land Raiders isn't inherently stupid. The way it was described outside of the codex is inherently stupid. Dreadnoughts fly via psychic powers, and I'm not going to touch that one, or else I'd have to point out all the other dumb psychic powers out there. What's wrong with Mephiston? Have you just not figured out that he doesn't have an answer to plasma or something? And I REALLY don't get Sanguinor hate. Do you mean in fluff terms or in game terms? What veterans do BA have that everyone else doesn't?

Again, I just don't think the guys who play the codex with Canis Wolfborn in it can really complain about other codices with a straight face. To put it into perspective, if "Ultra" had been seen every three words in the C:SM book - as prefixes, as a stand-alone word, as guys' names, etc. - I think you'd realize just how little room you have to maneuver in calling out another book. If Besty Ultrason was charging into battle inside his Ultrarhino while wielding dual Ultraswords and wearing Ultrarmor with an Ultrahalo...

Edit: Oh, and yes, Thunderwolves really are as stupid and OTT as those ideas combined.

Eyclonus wrote:I'm thinking that the whole DSing LR thing will be forgotten soon enough, not single person in the tournament metagame would try it for reasons that are obvious. While casual players might use it from time-to-time, they'll probably be tired of it after a few mishaps.

The Necron thing is just odd, easily fixed; next BA novel features 'crons as hostiles and no 'nids there to help force any kind of cooperation. Heck the Deciever can pose as the Sanguinor for the lulz.

The "Blood" thingy was just horrible. Space Wolves have that "Wolf" thingy, but if you going back to the 3rd edition codex its more a case that they venerate the wolf in the same way that certain tribal groups would venerate the bear or the jaguar. The whole 'Bloody McBlood-Gore" thing makes it seem like they have a guro/vore fetish.

Sure some of their gear is a little OP, but there are downsides, for one thing it makes BA players more likely to take cookie-cutters, and at their core they're still MEQ which means most anti-MEQ strategies will still work.

The dreads and special characters are a different matter entirely, but with the first 4 pages on characters in SM codex and the same for SW, kicking up a big fuss about OP chars is like teens rebelling in Che t-shirts, its been going on so long but people don't realize that, like how the younger Baby-Boomers wore that same shirt with that same photo at the same age back in the late 60s and 70s.

The dreads are... well I think the BA should just have had DC as an upgrade and the Furiouso dreadnought replacing the Ironclad's spot. Dreadnought spam is something that seems believable with techno-fetishist Ironhands, not the Angel-Edward wannabes with anger-management issues.

Ehh....

Infantryman wrote:Underwater Land Raiders fighting Tau with Propellers.

I liked the game better when it was sci fi, but not tongue in cheek. On the bright side, it's not devolved into a bunch of pop culture references like some games I know.

Fortunately, the main armies don't seem to have stupid crap like this, though I'm still not over Ultramar's realm being perfect worlds of perfectness.

M.

Yeah, you know when 40k was established in the RT era it was full of tongue in cheek.

Seaward wrote:Again, I just don't think the guys who play the codex with Canis Wolfborn in it can really complain about other codices with a straight face.

Oh, come one, how bad can it be?

Space Wolf Special Character Canis ("Wolf") Wolfborn, Lord of the Wolfkin, Saga of the Wolfkin, armed with Wolf Claws, wearing a Wolf Tail Talisman and a Wolftooth Necklace, is an 8-foot-tall Space Marine in Power Armour riding a giant Thunderwolf Wolf, accompanied by a Fenrisian Wolf.

Erm, OK, right, it's pretty bad. I simply can't say it with a straight face.



I could, however, search-and-replace him for the Black-and-White Space Marine riding the Black-and-White bike...

Just Dave wrote:

However, I fail to see the sense of Blood Angels having access to the heaviest standard-battle-tanks in the Imperium (Land Raiders) and chucking them out of Land Raiders at high velocity.

Wait what? BA can throw Land Raiders out of Land Raiders?

I think my personal beef with the BA codex is from more of a codex design perspective rather than a game play or fluff perspective. A lot of the options in the book seem a little too decked out for no real justification. Here are a few that caught my attention.

• Sanguinary priests giving both FC and FNP, I can understand the character maybe giving out 1 USR to the whole squad but 2 at the cost of 50 points? Also 3 priests for 1 elites slot also make them far too exploitable.
• Liturgies of blood giving Death Company the ability to re-roll to wound rolls (not sure why this was added in. To hit re-rolls + their stat line make them plenty powerful already and the fluff justification for it in the codex doesn’t sell it to me either)
• Giving a Psyker dreadnaught access to a jump pack power.
• Mephiston. Removing his inv save and the IC rule *doesn’t* balance things out. Sure he currently operates as a powerful glass cannon type SC but that doesn’t show good rules design.
• BA Vindicators having fast engines.
• DOA. Was completely unnecessary as the presence of jump pack troops/sanguinary guard troops, fast rhinos/baal preds and the red thirst pretty much enough to make the codex a fluffy BA codex. The fact that the book also has access to 99% of the vanilla marines book doesn’t sit well with me.
• DS Landraiders. Too crazy and seems to have been added for no reason other than rule of cool”

-75 points to give them Jump Packs, 85 to make them Bikers. They're single-wound Independent Characters (*must* react to a melee first and can be singled out).
-They have a powerful statline. Rage really does them in though. They're the Blood Angel equivalent of Vampire Count Blood Knights in 7th ed, powerful but expensive to tool up, and vulnerable to baiting/kiting.
-So? It's not like this Dreadnought in question has access to any Melta weapons to truly use this advantage. There are no Epistolary Librarians, so you'd be paying a good extra 50 points and sacrificing all upgrade options, just for extra movement, or the ability to get a stronger force-weapon. It's completely fair.
-Maybe he was designed *as* a glass cannon character one, especially with his Land-raider cost?
-Actually yes, it makes a deepstrike army actually viable, beyond "Line up all my men on the table, CHARGE!". It gives some ability alongside with Blood Lance to mitigate castles, making for the equivalent of a Daemon army that actually *works*.
-Vindicators competing with both Preds and Dreads, which are more important to a functioning BA army. Besides, the biggest problem with a Vindicator is "AV 13 on turn 1, AV 11 afterwards," as well as one-gun syndrome.
-You say Rule of Cool as though it's a bad thing...

Why are the new Blood Angels more Khorne than Chaos?

Remember 3rd Ed Chaos Codex - Khorne Characters used to buy an upgrade "Feel no pain" instead of Nurgle ones, and Furious Charge was also.


The Feel no pain-madness nowaday makes me sick... remember the 3rd or 3.5 Ed Codexes....
Nartheticum was (from my point of view) never as usefull as FNP ( 1 passed FNP for whole unit compared to 50% Chance for every wound the unit suffers...)
only Death Company (which was fluffy, in a way), Khorne Chars (same here), Dark Eldar Grotesques (FAQ'd, fluffy), Necrons (face it, WBB is! FNP with added bonuses...)....

H.B.M.C. wrote:Or Typhus, the Herald of Nurgle, who's out toughed by a Blood Angel.

Exactly.

Tougher than Nurgle Marines

More attacks than Khornate Marines

Quicker than Slaanesh Marines

Their very own Demon Prince of Tzeentch (Meph)

This is why the next version of CSM is going to be Off the Mutha F'ing Chain! Because GW MUST give a reason for Chaos players to use the Chaos dex instead off waffling between BA and SW.

Deuce11 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Or Typhus, the Herald of Nurgle, who's out toughed by a Blood Angel.

Exactly.

Tougher than Nurgle Marines

More attacks than Khornate Marines

Quicker than Slaanesh Marines

Their very own Demon Prince of Tzeentch (Meph)

This is why the next version of CSM is going to be Off the Mutha F'ing Chain! Because GW MUST give a reason for Chaos players to use the Chaos dex instead off waffling between BA and SW.

Or just a 'replace blood/ angels with Khorne' rewrite, with the three other gods sprinkled in.

I like the dex in so much as... its balanced for the most part. Yeah, mephiston is a little over the top, and DS landraiders is kind of a meh idea. But the rest seems ok.

Now, the fluff on the other hand... was way blown out of proportion like many have pointed out.

Space Wolves was an awesome dex; the fluff was pretty awesome, the dex was definitely space wolfy... but it was overpowered and didn't seem to be playtested that well.

I agree, BA has its issues, but overall I think they're ok. Hopefully when Dark Angels and they Grey Knights get their love GW learns from their mistakes, makes a balanced dex with fluff that fits and isn't overblown, and I'll be content. Same with 'Crons.

SaintHazard wrote:Irony rears its ugly head once again, with a silly grin on its face, tongue hanging out one side of its equine muzzle. Across the winds, the cries of a thousand logicians may be heard, as they suddenly feel a stabbing pain in their chest - unknowing of its origin... knowing only that somewhere, somehow, logic is being raped.

That is so sigg'd.

Zid wrote:I like the dex in so much as... its balanced for the most part. Yeah, mephiston is a little over the top, and DS landraiders is kind of a meh idea. But the rest seems ok.

Now, the fluff on the other hand... was way blown out of proportion like many have pointed out.

I agree completly.

The BA, Tyranid and, to a degree, SW codices were probably an attempt by 3 separate writers to prove that ''my codex is better than yours!''.

I don't see why people complain about the RULES in the Blood Angels codex. Yes, they get most of what SM do, this is true. But there are builds that are just not viable for them that SM get, and they have many features that make them unique and interesting.

Seriously, I'm pretty sure nothing in the codex matches the absurdity that is Long Fangs and TWC. Long fangs... really? 140 points for 5 missile launchers when you can get a dev squad with 4 for 10 more... and the dev squad can't split fire?

Infantryman wrote:Underwater Land Raiders fighting Tau with Propellers.

I liked the game better when it was sci fi, but not tongue in cheek. On the bright side, it's not devolved into a bunch of pop culture references like some games I know.

Fortunately, the main armies don't seem to have stupid crap like this, though I'm still not over Ultramar's realm being perfect worlds of perfectness.

M.

Has 40K ever not been tongue in cheek?

The clues are everywhere.

An SM leader named for a notorious homosexual poet. Another one, the strictest of all of them, called "Robot". SMs themed for vampires and werewolves, when that Vampire vs Werewolf RPG became so popular.

Red Wunz Go Fasta!

Chaos.

I know I've never been able to take it seriously, I can only play by embracing the ridiculosity.

I expect it depends on your point of view.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Has 40K ever not been tongue in cheek?

The clues are everywhere.

An SM leader named for a notorious homosexual poet. Another one, the strictest of all of them, called "Robot". SMs themed for vampires and werewolves, when that Vampire vs Werewolf RPG became so popular.

Red Wunz Go Fasta!

Chaos.

I know I've never been able to take it seriously, I can only play by embracing the ridiculosity.

I expect it depends on your point of view.

They seem to be making a conscious effort to get away from the "LOL Fantasy Battles in space let's make it the funneh" motivation, though.

Seaward wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Has 40K ever not been tongue in cheek?

The clues are everywhere.

An SM leader named for a notorious homosexual poet. Another one, the strictest of all of them, called "Robot". SMs themed for vampires and werewolves, when that Vampire vs Werewolf RPG became so popular.

Red Wunz Go Fasta!

Chaos.

I know I've never been able to take it seriously, I can only play by embracing the ridiculosity.

I expect it depends on your point of view.

They seem to be making a conscious effort to get away from the "LOL Fantasy Battles in space let's make it the funneh" motivation, though.

I don't know about that, but maybe they're just being more subtle, for instance after just having looked at the Space Wolves codex I noticed a reference to the comedians Morecambe and Wise. In the names of the great company captains, I think.

Kilkrazy wrote:Has 40K ever not been tongue in cheek?

For a very long time KK. They made the actual conscious decision to steer themselves away from the ComedyHammer of 1st and 2nd Ed and more towards the GRIMDARK-ness of 3rd and beyond.