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Fearless isn't a liability when you have I2. Better to lose some boyz rather than the whole unit to a Sweeping Advance.

grayspark wrote:Veteran Squads - 3 Melta/Plasma guns? Come ON Games Workshop, you seriously wanted this?

They've always been able to take that loadout at least since at least 1999.

Leman Russ / Vendetta - . . . I've seriously played games where the other person had 9 Leman Russes, and 9 Vendettas... complete BS.

9 of both in the same army? Without any mandatory troops or HQ, or any upgrades, that's 2520pts. That doesn't sound like it should be appearing in anything outside of Apocalypse. I'm gonna have to counter your call of "complete BS" with...BS. Yes Vendettas on their own are silly, but when spammed in squadrons they become far less useful (hence why there were probably costed where they are at, as in squadrons of 3 they really aren't that great for nearly 400pts), and nobody is going to be able to pack in 9 of them and 9 Leman Russ tanks into even a Hard Boyz sized army.

People love to cry about Mephiston, and Logan, and all that stuff, but I really don't see how it's unfair to pay premium points on a super-strong characters with a major weakness. But being able to get as many meltaguns, and transports, and everything else that IG can. It just doesn't compare to paying 250 points on a special character, when the other person has paid only 600 points or so for a bunch of super-power tanks that you can barely glance without having to deepstrike on their faces, and if you DO deepstrike on their faces, the survivors turn around and nuke you in your nice little deepstrike bunches.

What's their weakness besidees *maybe* cost? Also, Mephiston is a Space Marine. Yes a powerful one, but not one that should be able to engage Hive Tyrants and and Wraithlords in close combat with and be confident of victory. He's practically got the stats of a Primarch, which really, no matter how awesome overcoming the Black Rage is, is ridiculous. He's blatantly more powerful than Daemon Princes, the daemonically empowered and ascended individuals who were once amongst the mightiest of the lords of the Chaos Space Marines. That's silly.

Nurglitch wrote:Fearless isn't a liability when you have I2. Better to lose some boyz rather than the whole unit to a Sweeping Advance.

it is when No Retreat wounds kick your face in. I'm not saying Boys aren't good, because they are, but if they don't pound the unit they're assaulting on the first turn or they'll lose steam, especially if they took a lot of hits from shooting.

IG veterans with that kind of weapon loadout have been around for a while sure, but as ELITES, not troops.

Mephiston isn't all that awesome since he can't join a squad though, that's a big drawback for his otherwise awesomeness.

yeenoghu wrote:IG veterans with that kind of weapon loadout have been around for a while sure, but as ELITES, not troops.

Mephiston isn't all that awesome since he can't join a squad though, that's a big drawback for his otherwise awesomeness.

Vets aren't a real problem, they aren't resilient, I've never had them score an objective against me. They are more likely to be used as a meltacide squad, killing one tank then getting boltered/random small arms fired off the board. They also suck in assault, so pretty weedy stuff can just assault them, esp the angry things they probably shot out of the transports.

Even if they weren't troops, back to elites, it would at least give guard a reason to even use the elite slots.

Meph's weaknesses.

Anti-psychic gear gimps him.
No invul
Not IC
Not eternal warrior
Not fearless

In my view, a unit is overpowered when you would take one versus every unit of similar cost and function in other armies. With that in mind:

1. Grey Hunters (Role: Troop Choice)- Tactical Marines that have two CCWs and are 1 point less expensive? Tactical squads were pretty good as it was, and Grey Hunters are just too much.

2. Vendetta Gunship (Role: Fast Transport/Anti-Tank)- I wish my armies had them, because I would always take them. Vendettas are dual-role vehicles that are significantly undercosted for what they do. Their only downside is the $62 purchase price.

3. Mephiston (Role: Daemon Prince/ Totally Bad @$$)- Librarians are not Daemon Princes. /Explanation

theduncan wrote:

Mr. DK wrote:1.) Mephistonian or however you spell it. The T6 was just too much... plus the 'Wings power' and fleet? come on...

2.) Lash Whips and Bone swords. Make you initiative 1, no matter what, and hit you back with power weapons that instant kill?!?!

3.) DE husk blade and soul trap. Instant kill anything then double your strenght?

4.) Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun.

How is the Shokk Attack Gun OP. It's just as likely to blow up in your face or screw up in some other way. And it cost 60 pts and a HQ. How is that OP?

It can remove things from play, with a large template. lol

frenrik wrote:Meph's weaknesses.

Anti-psychic gear gimps him.
No invul
Not IC
Not eternal warrior
Not fearless

How many armies have anti-psyker gear? *Maybe* half of them? How many routinely take them? *Maybe* half of those, probably less, and of those that do many are highly situational/avoidable (e.g. Shadow in the Warp). Is he totally boned without those powers? Nope. Not by any means. He also provides psychic defense.

No Invul and not an IC, so he's a bit more vulnerable to stuff that can wound him, but he's smaller than most SM characters in terms of model and can easily get cover saves, and at T6 with 5 wounds he's harder to take down Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes already. He's a souped up Daemon Prince essentially on a teeny-tiny hideable model.

Not Eternal Warrior? At T6 there's nothing that can inflict ID through strength value alone, meaning only a small handful of weapons in a couple armies can do it, and for the CC ones he gets to strike first against almost all of them (or at *worst* at the same time) and can ID T3 characters with normal attacks and T5 characters if he gets off a psychic power on Ld10.

Not Fearless. Ld10 ATSKNF is better than Fearless.

Couldn't agree more.

It should be noted that on balance (and assuming the overwhelming likelyhood that his powers all come off (it's pretty rarfe they won't with LD 10) he has a better statline than the Nightbringer, for 2/3 the cost, and the Nightbringer is supposedly the GOD of DEATH

(Bit bitter- lost mine to him on sat, for absolutely jack in the way of return damage)..

notabot187 wrote:They look nice on paper, but fearless is a liability when you are 6+ armor. Also that armor gets APed by everything. Flamers, blasts large and small, and small arms of any army pretty much rip that squad into uselessness pretty quick.

You want to bring 100 models that don't suck? bring horde sisters. 100 power armor BS 4 girls with faith powered rending attacks.... and you can do it under 1500 point including HQ.

Sure they don't suck, but what are you goign to do when close combat comes to them since you proabably dropped 260 points on each squad so they don't suck and have some anti-tank (2 meltaguns)? You've also only got 7 uses total for AP1 (not rending) spread out amongst 5 squads. Usually you are better off taking lots of smaller squads so you have more faith points. Also you have absolutley zero long range firepower. Don't look at the Sisters in a vacuum. They are great troops but will not match up against boyz in terms of how good troops are. Besides 30 boyz with a powerklaw is cheaper than 20 Sisters with no Eviscerator by about 45 points. they can pump out 30 shots at close range and still assault. The Sisters can pump out slightly more shots and not assault.

My choices are

1) Nob Bikers becuase they annoy me for so many reasons
2) DC Dread with blood claws because they mulched 18 out of 20 daemonettes in one CC. (Fearless save and the inability to roll a single save, yeesh)
3) IG infantry platoon becuase it does it all and for cheap too

andrewm9 wrote:

notabot187 wrote:They look nice on paper, but fearless is a liability when you are 6+ armor. Also that armor gets APed by everything. Flamers, blasts large and small, and small arms of any army pretty much rip that squad into uselessness pretty quick.

You want to bring 100 models that don't suck? bring horde sisters. 100 power armor BS 4 girls with faith powered rending attacks.... and you can do it under 1500 point including HQ.

Sure they don't suck, but what are you goign to do when close combat comes to them since you proabably dropped 260 points on each squad so they don't suck and have some anti-tank (2 meltaguns)? You've also only got 7 uses total for AP1 (not rending) spread out amongst 5 squads. Usually you are better off taking lots of smaller squads so you have more faith points. Also you have absolutley zero long range firepower. Don't look at the Sisters in a vacuum. They are great troops but will not match up against boyz in terms of how good troops are. Besides 30 boyz with a powerklaw is cheaper than 20 Sisters with no Eviscerator by about 45 points. they can pump out 30 shots at close range and still assault. The Sisters can pump out slightly more shots and not assault.

My choices are

1) Nob Bikers becuase they annoy me for so many reasons
2) DC Dread with blood claws because they mulched 18 out of 20 daemonettes in one CC. (Fearless save and the inability to roll a single save, yeesh)
3) IG infantry platoon becuase it does it all and for cheap too

In CC sisters lean on their book (to stay in combat even when losing), and more divine guidance to rend if they need it, or increase strength if they need it. They have points left over to buy som long range fire power, guard allies isn't a bad place to look... Heck if you need to, drop down to just 80 sisters to fit more guard/fire support. As for faith points, 5 squads of sisters and a cannoness is 7 faith points, counting martyrdom, I've never needed more.

That being said, I've not run horde sisters much, and only in proxy. I only owned 70 models for them... so would have had to buy even more.

1. Blight Drones - 80 point Land Speeders with Battle Cannons? No.

2. There is no 2. Nothing else is overpowered.

DarknessEternal wrote:1. Blight Drones - 80 point Land Speeders with Battle Cannons? No.

With IA:7 and IA:Apocalypse II in front of me they certainly aren't 80pts, I'm reading 125. Methinks you've been duped if someone played them against you at 80pts each.

I've never really had a problem with mephiston. Against other psykers, he can potentially fall apart, leaving him with a reasonable amount of wounds you can deal.

I don't really feel like any particular unit in 40k is broken.... everything has a weakness...It's just up to you to exploit it and take advantage of it. But if I had to give three....

IG tank lines. Just played a 1000 point game against IG with tyranids. The guy used three battletanks and three chimeras. I had to footslog my troops across the board, and get absolutely crushed by battlecannons. Luckily, my trygon prime deep striked behind the three of them and blew up two of them, but that one got murdered by Plasma vets and the last BC. It was awful. I would have had the same problems had I been using a MEQ army or otherwise. It's too easy to completely destroy horde armies with IG. It's too easy to kill MEQs too!

Land Raider Crusaders (? The ones with flamers) filled with combi-melta guys. I played a doubles game and my space wolves opponent used these guys. Pretty brutal. Those flamers wrecked face before the guys shot out of the front and blew up a couple russes, then proceeded to stomp all over some IG vets. It was great fun for me, but I would have hated to be on the receiving end of that onslaught

Nob Bikers- Holy crap. Played a game of killteams against these monsters. Eight of them, in fact. That 4+ cover save is beyond broken. It makes almost no sense either :/

Honorable mention goes to furioso librarians, who have been the bane of my existence with that lance thing and the flying thing. OY

Samus_aran115 wrote:
IG tank lines. Just played a 1000 point game against IG with tyranids. The guy used three battletanks and three chimeras. I had to footslog my troops across the board, and get absolutely crushed by battlecannons. Luckily, my trygon prime deep striked behind the three of them and blew up two of them, but that one got murdered by Plasma vets and the last BC. It was awful. I would have had the same problems had I been using a MEQ army or otherwise. It's too easy to completely destroy horde armies with IG. It's too easy to kill MEQs too!

Was there terrain blocking LoS and cover? I find this to usually be the primary issue when people have problems with this kind of army, the IG typically have clear lanes of fire and little or no cover reducing the impact of their shooting.

Vaktathi wrote:

frenrik wrote:Meph's weaknesses.

Anti-psychic gear gimps him.
No invul
Not IC
Not eternal warrior
Not fearless

How many armies have anti-psyker gear? *Maybe* half of them? How many routinely take them? *Maybe* half of those, probably less, and of those that do many are highly situational/avoidable (e.g. Shadow in the Warp). Is he totally boned without those powers? Nope. Not by any means. He also provides psychic defense.

No Invul and not an IC, so he's a bit more vulnerable to stuff that can wound him, but he's smaller than most SM characters in terms of model and can easily get cover saves, and at T6 with 5 wounds he's harder to take down Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes already. He's a souped up Daemon Prince essentially on a teeny-tiny hideable model.

Not Eternal Warrior? At T6 there's nothing that can inflict ID through strength value alone, meaning only a small handful of weapons in a couple armies can do it, and for the CC ones he gets to strike first against almost all of them (or at *worst* at the same time) and can ID T3 characters with normal attacks and T5 characters if he gets off a psychic power on Ld10.

Not Fearless. Ld10 ATSKNF is better than Fearless.

This was mostly a reply to "What's their weakness besidees *maybe* cost?"

Eldar, DH inquisitor allies, space wolves and space marines common enough opponents around here and 2 of those have table wide defence. I would say over half my tournament/league games since the new codex came out had some kind of defense going on. While not totally boned, it's still a significant hit in mobility and damage potential he's taking.

He also might be harder to take down than a demon prince, but he also cost more than 2 winged princes, and head to head, the two princes would win most of the time.

The ID thing is minor I'll grant, but I'd rather have fearless with 2+ armor than be escorted off the table because of a bad ld roll.

frenrik wrote:The ID thing is minor I'll grant, but I'd rather have fearless with 2+ armor than be escorted off the table because of a bad ld roll.

I second this. I run Lysander with LD 10 stubborn ATSKNF, and although that may seem like the best possible morale rules to have, its not. I have rolled boxcars a few times and had him escorted off the table (its not fun lol). Although rerollable stubborn is probably the most ideal (godamn commissars!) Fearless will fight to the last man 100% of the time.

Vaktathi wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:1. Blight Drones - 80 point Land Speeders with Battle Cannons? No.

With IA:7 and IA:Apocalypse II in front of me they certainly aren't 80pts, I'm reading 125. Methinks you've been duped if someone played them against you at 80pts each.

Ok. Then there are no overpowered units in 40k.

Unless we're counting something terrible, like Pyrovores, as the standard level of power. Then many things would be overpowered. Best to think of the majority of things as the standard, and some things are too weak.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
IG tank lines. Just played a 1000 point game against IG with tyranids. The guy used three battletanks and three chimeras. I had to footslog my troops across the board, and get absolutely crushed by battlecannons. Luckily, my trygon prime deep striked behind the three of them and blew up two of them, but that one got murdered by Plasma vets and the last BC. It was awful. I would have had the same problems had I been using a MEQ army or otherwise. It's too easy to completely destroy horde armies with IG. It's too easy to kill MEQs too!

Wait, this doesn't work. I have a friend who fields 3 Battletanks. But he only has a CC and two Plasma vet squads. I'd understand 1 chimera being squeezed in there, but 3? I'd check this guys list.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:
IG tank lines. Just played a 1000 point game against IG with tyranids. The guy used three battletanks and three chimeras. I had to footslog my troops across the board, and get absolutely crushed by battlecannons. Luckily, my trygon prime deep striked behind the three of them and blew up two of them, but that one got murdered by Plasma vets and the last BC. It was awful. I would have had the same problems had I been using a MEQ army or otherwise. It's too easy to completely destroy horde armies with IG. It's too easy to kill MEQs too!

Wait, this doesn't work. I have a friend who fields 3 Battletanks. But he only has a CC and two Plasma vet squads. I'd understand 1 chimera being squeezed in there, but 3? I'd check this guys list.

No, three battle tanks and three chimeras is easily possible within a thousand points even with lots of plasma. Three russes, two mech vet squads and a mech CCS with a bunch of plasma guns costs somewhere around 950 points. Enough space left over for some vet skills or a sentinel.

Raxmei wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:
IG tank lines. Just played a 1000 point game against IG with tyranids. The guy used three battletanks and three chimeras. I had to footslog my troops across the board, and get absolutely crushed by battlecannons. Luckily, my trygon prime deep striked behind the three of them and blew up two of them, but that one got murdered by Plasma vets and the last BC. It was awful. I would have had the same problems had I been using a MEQ army or otherwise. It's too easy to completely destroy horde armies with IG. It's too easy to kill MEQs too!

Wait, this doesn't work. I have a friend who fields 3 Battletanks. But he only has a CC and two Plasma vet squads. I'd understand 1 chimera being squeezed in there, but 3? I'd check this guys list.

No, three battle tanks and three chimeras is easily possible within a thousand points even with lots of plasma. Three russes, two mech vet squads and a mech CCS with a bunch of plasma guns costs somewhere around 950 points. Enough space left over for some vet skills or a sentinel.

He would have to going with the bare minimum, skinny-milk list, but I guess it could work.

Not really all that minimum

HQ: CCS, Chimera, 4x plasma gun
Vets: Chimera, 4x Plasma Gun
Vets: Chimra, 4x Plasma Gun

Leman Russ
Leman Russ
Leman Russ

give you 50pts to play around with, add a sentinel, or toss lascannons on the LR's, etc.

Vaktathi wrote:Not really all that minimum

HQ: CCS, Chimera, 4x plasma gun
Vets: Chimera, 4x Plasma Gun
Vets: Chimra, 4x Plasma Gun

Leman Russ
Leman Russ
Leman Russ

give you 50pts to play around with, add a sentinel, or toss lascannons on the LR's, etc.

That's what I'd call a skinny-milk list. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but it's a list where you've obviously thinned out your entire army in order to fatten up a certain area (Heavy Support).

Shenra wrote:Everyone loses...because for the points...no one mentioned........

MARLBORO!!!!

Mephiston and Abaddon are both over 200 points...Marlboro is only what....55? I would take 4 Marlboro's over Mephiston or Abaddon any day of the week.

Ah, I remember the good old days before the Tyranid Codex and everything after it, back when Marbo was actually scary... We were so young and naive, weren't we?

Eldrad
Pathfinders. +2 cover save that because of Warlocks you can do a double save = No list can beat them until you get up close or take out the locks.
Avatar

What is a "double" save?

A single flamer will kill those 24ppm T3 5+sv infantry, and in cover they are still easier to kill than Termi's due to their T3.

Vaktathi wrote:What is a "double" save?

A single flamer will kill those 24ppm T3 5+sv infantry, and in cover they are still easier to kill than Termi's due to their T3.

Its a re-roll. When he says warlocks, I think he meant farseers, they can cast fortune.

notabot187 wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:What is a "double" save?

A single flamer will kill those 24ppm T3 5+sv infantry, and in cover they are still easier to kill than Termi's due to their T3.

Its a re-roll. When he says warlocks, I think he meant farseers, they can cast fortune.

I was sorta thinking that, but not sure if he was referring to Conceal from Warlocks or Fortune from Farseers.

And again, why a flamer solves all those issues, there's no saves they can take to reroll

Vasarto wrote:Eldrad

This makes no sense to me. He's strictly middle of the pack when it comes to potency.