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I think you're missing the joke here

1. Overlord Vecht is currently my least favorite model in the game for two reasons. First, he grants his darklance toting army a 3+ to seize the initiative, which I find completely stupid. Second, he gets 7 PW attacks without even needing to charge at an initiative of 8, which is enough to crush just about everything I can throw at him as a CSM player. Oh and third.. WTF 2+ INVUL SAVE? WTFWTF?

2. I really hate Vendettas. Yes, you can kill them. But for 130 pts I don't know if there is a better value in the game. Scout moving AV 12 fast skimmer with transport and 3 TL-Lascannons? Really?

3. Njal the Stormcaller, and runepriests in general, for two reasons. One is the very lame Living Lightning omfgwtfbbq infinite range Str 7 bombardment of doom. The second is the 3+ / 4+ "sorry about that spell of yours". This actually helped me decide to build an Eldar force so I could make these pricks take 3d6 on powers.

"Overpowered" has to be looked at in terms of cost and supporting units. Mephiston, IMO, doesn't count because he can't join units, is easily picked off, and has crappy synergy. He's also insanely expensive.

Overpowered in terms of cost, supporting units, and everything else in the dex?

1. Killa Kanz. Didn't expect that huh? They're FAR too cheap for an 11/11/10 vehicle with a S10 power klaw, and the synergy you get with a KFF. They need to be 10/10/10 and S4, so the Klaw makes them S8, OR significantly more expensive.

2. Long Fangs. Significantly undercosted.

3. Fate Points. Get the feth out of here with all of that crap. Nobody knows how they work except people who play Sisters.

Boneblade wrote:1. Overlord Vecht is currently my least favorite model in the game for two reasons. First, he grants his darklance toting army a 3+ to seize the initiative, which I find completely stupid. Second, he gets 7 PW attacks without even needing to charge at an initiative of 8, which is enough to crush just about everything I can throw at him as a CSM player. Oh and third.. WTF 2+ INVUL SAVE? WTFWTF?

He seizes on a 4+, not a 3. He has 5A base, with +1 for two CC weapons, so 6, 7 *if* charging. His 2++ save goes away once he fails the first wound. He's also T3 without Eternal Warrior.

With his init, WS and PW, on a charge with 7 attacks, on average he will put out about as many wounds on T3/4 models as a Khornate Daemon Prince. He's not that scary.


My list:

There's so many to choose from, from TH/SS termi's, to Long Fangs, to Grey Hunters, to Doom, Vendettas, Vulkan, Nob Bikers, TWC's, Rune Priests/Njal, Lysander, Mephiston, Sanguinary Priests, Blood Talon Dreads, Hydras, Baal Preds (not so much in and of themselves, but Scout coupled with being Fast Attack allowing BA armies to field ridiculous amounts of highly mobile AV13 heavy armor), etc... It's hard to narrow it to three.

My vote goes for swarmlord, horrific overall killer and army buffer.

Polonius wrote:

notabot187 wrote:Long fangs aren't that much cheaper. For 140 points you get 6 bodies and 5 MLs.

Regular marines for 150 get 5 bodies and 4 MLs

BA get 5 bodies and 4 MLs for 130.

1 extra ML + body for a 10 point difference isn't OP, it is a good deal for SW players, but its not broken.

So it has a mid game ability to mess with you. It gets once shot, and it should die after that. Other armies get similar capabilities, though not quite as cheap, or not as effective. Doesn't make it OP IMHO.

Even compared to BA, which get a very nice discount over basic SM, the wolves pay 10 more points to get: +1 body, +1 ML, Acute senses, LD 9 across the unit, and split fire. They also lose the signum (+1 BS to one model a turn). BA devs also have strong competition for the heavy support slots in dreadnoughts and fast predators.

It's certainly meta-game changing. Split fire and 5 MLs per squad mean you can split 15 shots over 6 targets. That can really shut down mechanized lists. It's not ridiculously over the top (because nothing in modern 40k is that dramatically OP), but when an army can spend 420pts and outshoot most armies... that's a very nice unit.

Sorry Bro, you got the math wrong; Long fangs are 10 points Less expensive for an additional Body, ML, AS, and split fire; and only losing Combat tactics, and Signum. Acute senses could be analogous with combat tactics(sure they cannot choose to just flee and not get assaulted, but they can reach out and touch someone better in night-fights). Split fire could be seen as a fair replacement of the signum. You still get the extra marine and Missile launcher for less than the "same" squad of 'nilla devs.

So i would say on my list Long Fangs are pretty OP(and I play SWs)

Next would be rune priests, regular libys have a straight d6 contest to negate most powers(and the casting psyker wins on a tie), Rune priest do it fully 50% of the time, then add in the Wolf tail that many units will have that get a further 33% chance to negate the power and you enter into the real of ridiculous. On top of all that you get powers like Jaws.

Finally I agree with the Death co dread with duel Blood claws(infinite attacks, sucks).

These are in no particular order btw.

There are others that can be pretty OP but not on their own(as with the case of the rune priest); but to OP-ness is that when combined with another squad or two they get nasty.

Long Fangs are 10pts less than SM devs, but 10pts more than BA devs.

I have a few things to put in myself. Again, I think too many people are looking at this in terms of POWER/MODELS vs POWER/POINTS. Example would be Mephiston, VERY strong for a single model, but costs a lot of points, and all you need is some plasma and something to bait him to come out of cover. Good, but not godly.

Also, I think that you need to include dedicated transports and the rest of the army list as well, as Broadsides are great, but are kinda let down by the rest of the codex. As such, I am picking just one unit from any given codex, and including other units in my opinion of that unit.

My picks are thus.

1) Grey Hunters
The closest comparison to Grey Hunters is a Chaos Space marine. They have the same cost andthe same weapons, Bolter+BP+CCW.
1) you lose 1LD, but you gain Counter Attack, Acute Senses, and ATSNKF. The leadership loss is also offset by the ability to take a WGPL
2) CSM pay 30 pts to get a Champion with no equipment, and with a combi-weapon and a PF that price increases to 65! A WGPL with no equipment is 18 pts, and with combi-Fist is only 43 pts.
3) CSM pay 5/10/15 for both special weapons. Grey Hunters pay 0/5/10 for the first, and the second is free.
4) The Razorback- Essentially it is one of the best dedicated transports around. It increases the ranged firepower of the squad and adds mobility.
5) Long Fangs- With a Razorback, and Long Fangs supporting, you can mostly outshout anything AND still out fight most troops in close combat as well.
6) Wolf Standard- for 10pts you get to re-roll 1s in the assault phase. Being able to re-roll saves is a great ability and is VERY limited (only 3 units can do this, Farseer, Fateweaver and Grey Hunters). Plus you get to re-roll assault distance, Mark of the Wolfen attacks, to hit, to wound, consolidate distance... makes a decent close combat unit much better.

The best value for a troops unit in any book. It can shoot better than most, it can fight in combat better than most, and it is stupidly cheap!


2)Imperial Guard Veterans
1)You get the best value for money in terms of special weapon density. Most troop units can take 1 special/1 heavy per 10 people or maybe 1 special per 5 people. Veterans get 3 special/1 heavy, and if you want it a demo charge too.
2) with 3 specials(meltaguns), it is 100 pts and BS4
3) Chimera- Wow. 55 pts, and it comes with great guns. Muti-laser for light tanks/long range and a Heavy Flamer for close up. Also front AV 12 and 5 fire points. What more do you want?
4) Vendetta- 130 pts for a fast skimmer with more guns than a predator can take. Also it has scout and can carry people so you can nuke the front lines turn 1, or out flank and score and shoot from reserves.

Again a great troop option with very high damage potential for not many points. Toss in some great transport options and then it is backed up by strong Long range shooting from the rest of the codex.


3)Sanguinary Priest
I do not have much to say about this one as there is not much else to compare it too, and the benefits from it are not quite so tangible as it is a buffer not a fighter. Basically, the only reason you can run a non-mech BA list and not be laughed at is because of these guys. Add to it that you can stick them in a tank for added range to their aura, and they can make Terminators (TH/SS) so much harder to take out as well.


Honorable mention goes to Vulkan Hestan: the only reason people still use the Vanilla Marine book in tournaments.

In no particular order..
Doom of Malantai - 90pts for a potential multiple squad killer?!

Broodlord - A Sergeant equivalent that has a statline that rivals many HQ choices.

Space Wolves - Have crass options, and the strongest Psychic attack in the game.

This thread really shows some peoples varying - and sometimes absurd - definition of over-powered; many of the units listed so far aren't considered over-powered by most gaming circles and yet are criticised nonetheless?!

Anyways, for me, I don't think there are many OVERPOWERED units. There are many UNDERCOSTED units, but units that are ridiculously overpowered, as in they do way more than they should? My top 3 would be:

- Mephiston - Yes, he's a Psychic Master, yes he's an absolute beast, but no he shouldn't have statistics equal to a Daemon Prince, particularly not on a normal base.

- Thunderwolf Lords - 200+pts is not good, but for what they pack, it's ridiculous.

- TH/SS Termies - To go from 4++ in close combat to 3++ under all circumstances?! Not on, not on. Particularly for their cost.

- Honourable Mention - Sanguinary Priests - FNP and FC bubble is crazy, particularly if compared to normal Apothecaries.


As for UNDER COSTED? Well:
- Long Fangs
- Grey Hunters
- Wolf Guard
- Daemon Princes (CSM)
- Thunderwolf
- Vendetta's
- Veterans
- Chimeras
- Manticores
- Razorbacks
...

In a system with limited points, is being undercosted the only way to truely become over powered?

Monoliths- At 235pts, better armour and weapons+rules than a LR, yes please!!

Medusa- 36" Demolisher Cannon at 135pts, although low armour it is still crazy.

Skulltaker (any varient)- Character crusher, roughly 120pts standard. 5+ rending and ID (only IIRC).

I would probably pick SC's as generality. I understand what GW is doing but I just dont think you can balance things like SC's, especially now that we have them completely changing the FOC's and armies. the below being my most hated (although I understand that not all of the below change the FOC):

1) Vulkan
2) Shrike
3) Kantor
4) Rambo
5) Mephiston

The only model I've felt was unbalanced was logan grimnar, he killed all my MC in my Tyranid list.

Sin wrote:
Doom of Malantai - 90pts for a potential multiple squad killer?!

Unless you're in a vehicle. Or in cover. Or have anything Str 8 in your army. Then he's 90 points (edit: 135 points for an inferior-in-every-way-to-a-drop pod mycetic spore) and a Tyranid Elite slot for one turn of mild-to-no wounds and a quickly evaporating cloud of biomass.

Polonius wrote:In a system with limited points, is being undercosted the only way to truly become over powered?

OVERPOWERED would be a model that is far stronger than it should be compared to the fluff for it. Mephiston is a librarian (a strong one) but he has a stat line hat rivals a hive tyrant. There is more power in that model than there should be, even though you pay the points for it and he has weaknesses.

UNDERPRICED would be a model that does more than the points you pay for them, for example Grey Hunters. Not very strong individually, but you pay less points than other similar models.

That being said, I think that some people use these terms a bit interchangeably.



Also, I think people's opinions are biased by the army that they play.

As an Ork player, Rune Priests with JotWW are VERY annoying to me as Orks rely on hiding PK Nobs and Painboyz inside big tough to kill units. When you can cast a spell that can take out a bunch of boys on a 3+ AND any Nob on a 4+ AND your army has no Psyker defence, they can be very annoying. However, against Mechanized Eldar, JotWW is much less powerfull due to high I and vehicles.

I was suprised at the inclusion on Wraithlords, especially considering the new DE and their 4+ poison weapons all over the place, but I am sure that some lists have a lot of trouble dealing with them.

Mr Nobody wrote:The only model I've felt was unbalanced was logan grimnar, he killed all my MC in my Tyranid list.

That's odd. I flay him down in 1 turn with just a squad of warriors and immortals. I have yet to see what's so crazy about him

svendrex wrote:

Polonius wrote:In a system with limited points, is being undercosted the only way to truly become over powered?

OVERPOWERED would be a model that is far stronger than it should be compared to the fluff for it. Mephiston is a librarian (a strong one) but he has a stat line hat rivals a hive tyrant. There is more power in that model than there should be, even though you pay the points for it and he has weaknesses.

UNDERPRICED would be a model that does more than the points you pay for them, for example Grey Hunters. Not very strong individually, but you pay less points than other similar models.

That being said, I think that some people use these terms a bit interchangeably.

I'm noticing that as well. I think the only way you could consider anything in the Guard codex to be overpowered is in the under-priced sense (saying that as a guard player ). To me, that is the only way that fragile units with only moderate damage output like the Hydra or Vendetta really make the list.

phantommaster wrote:Monoliths- At 235pts, better armour and weapons+rules than a LR, yes please!!

A monolith doesn't have better armor, it just has a special rule about what bonuses can be applied.

It doesn't have better rules, it has different rules. A land raider is a transport that is also a tank. A monolith is a tank, and can move squads around a bit.

It certainly isn't overpowered, since to most people it is just an annoyance. It also eats up points in an army that needs bodies towards phase out. I don't think I could call anything in the necron book OP, the C'tan are close, but they are slow and don't usually do much more than scare away assaulting units.

In a vacuum, a monolith is great.

In a necron army, it is almost a liability. It limits your phase out limit, and there are some armies that can destroy the monolith with out too much trouble, most notably Tau.

If you only rely on Meltaguns for your anti-tank and you try to kill it, it can be very anoying, however you can just ignore it and phase the enemy out instead.

Mephiston. STR 6 T 6? INIT 7???? 5 WOUNDS!!!!??!?!? On a librarian are you F***ing kidding me?

scubasteve04 wrote:Mephiston. STR 6 T 6? INIT 7???? 5 WOUNDS!!!!??!?!? On a librarian are you F***ing kidding me?

Yeah, he is pretty good. Now I don't have the BA codex in front of me, but AB seems to tell me that he isn't an independent character. This is important...
He moves like infantry, can't join squads, needs to use a power to fly, has no invul, and costs 250 points.

Just consider him to be a greater daemon on a small base and armor instead of invul.

Fire up the plasma and lascannons, we have a target!

Kurgash wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:The only model I've felt was unbalanced was logan grimnar, he killed all my MC in my Tyranid list.

That's odd. I flay him down in 1 turn with just a squad of warriors and immortals. I have yet to see what's so crazy about him

He refuses to die, while my hive tyrant and its guard die in a single cc phase.

scubasteve04 wrote:Mephiston. STR 6 T 6? INIT 7???? 5 WOUNDS!!!!??!?!? On a librarian are you F***ing kidding me?

He's not an IC, has no invul, and has to do a psyker test to fly. He's basically a Flyrant/Wing Daemon Prince.

Amaya wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:Mephiston. STR 6 T 6? INIT 7???? 5 WOUNDS!!!!??!?!? On a librarian are you F***ing kidding me?

He's not an IC, has no invul, and has to do a psyker test to fly. He's basically a Flyrant/Wing Daemon Prince.

He doesnt need an invul. He has T6, 2+ save with FIVE wounds for feth sakes. Plus hes a tiny little infantry dude, so a 4+ cover save is not hard to obtain. Did I mention he has 7 attacks on the charge, WS 7 reroll to hit str 10? And he flies ANd is fleet? Plus hes even got a hood. He is leagues ahead of Flyrants/ DPs

scubasteve04 wrote:

Amaya wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:Mephiston. STR 6 T 6? INIT 7???? 5 WOUNDS!!!!??!?!? On a librarian are you F***ing kidding me?

He's not an IC, has no invul, and has to do a psyker test to fly. He's basically a Flyrant/Wing Daemon Prince.

He doesnt need an invul. He has T6, 2+ save with FIVE wounds for feth sakes. Plus hes a tiny little infantry dude, so a 4+ cover save is not hard to obtain. Did I mention he has 7 attacks on the charge, WS 7 reroll to hit str 10? And he flies ANd is fleet? Plus hes even got a hood. He is leagues ahead of Flyrants/ DPs

Do you know what plasma and melta guns are? It's not all that hard to punch through 2+ saves. He's better than a Flyrant point for point, if you only look at melee capabilites, but I would take two DPs over Mephiston any day of the week.

svendrex wrote:
OVERPOWERED would be a model that is far stronger than it should be compared to the fluff for it. Mephiston is a librarian (a strong one) but he has a stat line hat rivals a hive tyrant. There is more power in that model than there should be, even though you pay the points for it and he has weaknesses.

Well, by that definition wouldn't Mephiston be under powered? It says in the codex that he ripped apart a Carnifex with his bare hands. So he shouldn't even have a force weapon. All of his attacks should just be ID.

Not really any order here but the ones that came into my head at first:

-The swarmlord: Yes im a nid player but i've faced it many times and it literally can kill anything, and often kill anything with each one of it's attacks.

-Thunderwolf Cavalry: Many people have said this, they're cheap (for what you get) fast and deadly.

-Anything with MotW: Surprised no-one has already mentioned this, a5 pts for D6+1 rending attacks!?

There's a few other little things, like Jaws of the World Wolf, which is just too good, i've seen it kill 3 fexes in one shot.

I've seen a lot of people saying that long fangs are OP, i haven't actually faced them yet but my uncle has recently got a unit of devastators and converted them to long fangs with missile launchers....

And finally, a lot of people say that eldrad is OP, which i disagree with (hang on, im an eldar player...)

Dok wrote:

svendrex wrote:
OVERPOWERED would be a model that is far stronger than it should be compared to the fluff for it. Mephiston is a librarian (a strong one) but he has a stat line hat rivals a hive tyrant. There is more power in that model than there should be, even though you pay the points for it and he has weaknesses.

Well, by that definition wouldn't Mephiston be under powered? It says in the codex that he ripped apart a Carnifex with his bare hands. So he shouldn't even have a force weapon. All of his attacks should just be ID.

Mephiston isn't the only spess marine with rediculous feats of strength in his fluff (Clagar face-punching an Eldar Avatar. Yes, the Avatar is a the living embodiment of a god and was taken out by calgars right hook.) Mepheston had a building fall on him and escaped? Lysander broke out of imprisonment from an Iron warriors stronghold with his bare hands after being brutally tortured for weeks.

Both of these characters are still only T4 with 4 wounds. They went completely overboard with Mephistons stats. 5 Wounds, S6 T6, Init 7 are just slowed.

Thunderwolves.
Storm raven.
Imperial guard Blobs.