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Mr. DK wrote:1.) Mephistonian or however you spell it. The T6 was just too much... plus the 'Wings power' and fleet? come on...

2.) Lash Whips and Bone swords. Make you initiative 1, no matter what, and hit you back with power weapons that instant kill?!?!

3.) DE husk blade and soul trap. Instant kill anything then double your strenght?

4.) Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun.

How is the Shokk Attack Gun OP. It's just as likely to blow up in your face or screw up in some other way. And it cost 60 pts and a HQ. How is that OP?

1. Thunderwolf Cavalry
2. Ork Nobz Bikers
3. Those new Tyranid weapons that strike first, have str6, rending, and ignore all saves, including invulns. I lost a tournament cause the kid had them on every genestealer in his army ( combine that with the fleet and scout moves....sheesh. Good bye Guard).

General Hobbs wrote:
3. Those new Tyranid weapons that strike first, have str6, rending, and ignore all saves, including invulns. I lost a tournament cause the kid had them on every genestealer in his army ( combine that with the fleet and scout moves....sheesh. Good bye Guard).

Ignores invos? I'm not sure I believe that.

There is nothing in the Tyranid codex that ignores invulnerable saves. There are a lot of things that ignore armor, but the only thing that I've heard of that ignores invuln is in the Necron codex (the C'tan). Someone clearly cheated.

Mephiston
Wraithlords
Abaddon

those 3 are the ones I see to be the biggest pain in the butt, maybe the new Dark eldar chick with a Truck load of extra attacks.

The Fragile Breath wrote:There is nothing in the Tyranid codex that ignores invulnerable saves. There are a lot of things that ignore armor, but the only thing that I've heard of that ignores invuln is in the Necron codex (the C'tan). Someone clearly cheated.

The callidus assassin has a C'tan phase sword, which is a power weapon which ignores invuls. The down side? Its on an assassin, and the weapon gets auto destroyed against real C'tan.

Space Marine scouts.

Everybody doubts them so much, they literally never die! Because no one bothers shooting at them! UNKILLABLE!

1. Nob Bikers: Good at everything, fast, hard to kill, possibly scoring, devastating in close combat, can easily multi-charge units and mangle them all. Expensive sure, but on the battlefield they have next to no real weaknesses except to armies specifically tooled to take them out. Abuse of wargear selection and the addition of a warboss to absorb S9/10 hits makes their defeat even harder.

2. Vendettas: Fast and scouting, devastating at range especially when able to flank tanks and hit side armour, able to carry scoring units or units with short-range weaponry (melta-vets) or both, able to keep away from melta weapons, reasonably cheap, able to take 9 of them. When I first saw this in the codex, I assumed it was a typo that they still had transport capacity. Anything with tanks in it will hate these. Anything with elite infantry will hate these. Hell, only an all-foot ork or tyranid list will not hate these.

3. Space Marine Librarians: Two reasons: Null Zone and the Psychic Hood. No other character, piece of wargear or psychic power in the game is able to utterly shaft a sub-set of armies quite like Null Zone. Anything that relies on invulnerable saves (Daemons in particular, but also TH/SS terminators and a few other units) is buggered by this. With so many psychic powers out there now, the psychic hood is also a no brainer take for SM armies. There's a reason Librarians are now the default HQ choice for codex marines (it used to be super-cheap Chaplains).

Honourable Mention: Hydras: Cheap, spammable, AV12, very high number of high-quality shots. With 4+ cover saves being banded around so easily, sometimes low-AP just doesn't cut it. That's when you get Hydras. Twin-Linked, High-S, 4 shots. If you're a monstrous creature, you're in for a world of pain. If you're a troop transport or skimmer, you'd better watch out. Hell, even terminators roll 1s 1/6 of the time.

Honourable Mention: Razorbacks and Immolators: Alone they're nothing, but they're cheap, spammable and able to mount dangerous weapons. If you can't deal with 10-15 AV11 hulls, they'll roll over you and if they target your anti-tank units first, you'll rapidly lose. If you do blow them up, there's often something angry inside.

Very good, but not overpowered:

Thunderwulfs (T5 with W2 isn't that much if you pour a reasonable amount of fire into them)
Long Fangs (Cheap and cheerful, with the two-target bonus, but still vulnerable like marines to dedicated CC units)
Grey Hunters (Do-it-all all-rounders. Possibly best Troops choice in the game, but then, when did troops ever get used for anything but scoring these days?)
Eldrad (Expensive and hood-able).
Incubi (Blow their transport as a priority, and then they die like marines out of cover. i.e. easily).
Doom of Malanti (Kill it quickly!)
Sanguinary Priests (ICs, target in close combat)
TH/SS Assault Terminators (Very expensive with LR delivery system. Prone to tricks of all sorts, especially psychic powers that slow them or make them run away. When in doubt, bulk plasma and melta shots still do them in).
Blood Crushers (Slow)
Fiends (Vulnerable to shooting on arrival)
IG Veterans (best special weapon-density this side of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, still die like guardsmen)
Twin Boneswords (if they were restricted to HQ choices, it wouldn't be a problem, but it's hard to keep your multi-W models away when they're everywhere)
KFF Big Mek (Very good for the points and if you can cover a bunch of battlewagons).


Now, here's what isn't overpowered and why:

Mephiston: Can't join units, no invulnerable save. This makes him weak to AP1/2 weapons and powerfists. You know, weapons you should be taking lots of anyway. Of course he's going to tear you a new one in CC, it's all he's good at. Don't let him, shoot him first. If he does get close, batter his face in with fists/claws/hammers. This applies for all other super-CC characters like the Swarmlord, Abaddon etc. They're good at one thing, and then you complain when you try and play the game on their terms?

Soulgrinder: Only vehicle in the codex. Every anti-tank weapon will be pointed at it. If it isn't dead turn 1, it's because it's lost all its weapons and is immobilised, and you can stop worrying about it.

Drop Pod Dreads: They cant assault the turn they land, so shoot them up. If you can't stop them, feed them something it'll take a while to chew through while you move other things away, ideally with a power fist in it somewhere. Sure, if you let it charge something which can't kill it, you're screwed. But again, it's a one trick pony, so stop playing its game. If it's got Blood Talons you might have a case.

Land Raiders: Very easy to kill with melta weapons. If you don't have melta weapons or similar, it's the fault of your codex, not the Land Raider.

Obliterators: Very expensive for what they do, uses up a HS slot, slow. Lots of shots, or AP2 weapons do them in. Would much rather have a Land Speeder for the points (faster, less prone to low-S weapons, duality with MM and HF).

Monoliths: Very hard to kill sure, but a huge chunk out of their army and not as killy as many suggest. Kill the necrons instead, and the whole thing phases out. I love facing a 2 or 3 monolith list.

Jaws of the World Wolf: Have you ever actually played with it? I have a SW list with 3 Rune priests in it, all with JotWW. For every game it managed to take out a monstrous creature or other expensive thing, I have three games where I might luckily nuke a single marine, or a few orks. Murderous Hurricane is much better, so is the lightning power (Unlimited range? So long Land Speeder squadron).

Nob Bikers with a pain boy: I run them but damn I feel so bad about it times. feel no pain and always get a 4+ cover save for moving

Vendetta. 3 las cannons and it can carry troops! my buddy likes to use them to hold his dudes pop my tanks the prior turns. then boost to the objective at the 11th hour to contest.

master of the fleet: he makes my daemon army cry.

Mephiston I can deal with my orks or nids just swarm him, chaos I hit him with a melta gun on a trooper or lascannon from a land raider.

The Space Pope for all three. So damn overpowered that he goes around the scale and actually becomes the most underpowered unit too.

Veteran Squads - 3 Melta/Plasma guns? Come ON Games Workshop, you seriously wanted this?

Manticore - Same as above but different kind of attack.

Leman Russ / Vendetta - . . . I've seriously played games where the other person had 9 Leman Russes, and 9 Vendettas... complete BS.


People love to cry about Mephiston, and Logan, and all that stuff, but I really don't see how it's unfair to pay premium points on a super-strong characters with a major weakness. But being able to get as many meltaguns, and transports, and everything else that IG can. It just doesn't compare to paying 250 points on a special character, when the other person has paid only 600 points or so for a bunch of super-power tanks that you can barely glance without having to deepstrike on their faces, and if you DO deepstrike on their faces, the survivors turn around and nuke you in your nice little deepstrike bunches.

grayspark wrote:Veteran Squads - 3 Melta/Plasma guns? Come ON Games Workshop, you seriously wanted this?

Manticore - Same as above but different kind of attack.

Leman Russ / Vendetta - . . . I've seriously played games where the other person had 9 Leman Russes, and 9 Vendettas... complete BS.


People love to cry about Mephiston, and Logan, and all that stuff, but I really don't see how it's unfair to pay premium points on a super-strong characters with a major weakness. But being able to get as many meltaguns, and transports, and everything else that IG can. It just doesn't compare to paying 250 points on a special character, when the other person has paid only 600 points or so for a bunch of super-power tanks that you can barely glance without having to deepstrike on their faces, and if you DO deepstrike on their faces, the survivors turn around and nuke you in your nice little deepstrike bunches.

9 leman and 9 vendettas is over 2500 points without buying the compulsorily HQ+ 2 troops.

If you are playing Apoc points levels, don't complain when you face dumb stuff like that.

This list is defined as 'most powerful for the points cost', not 'most powerful'. The Emperor might auto-win anything he is doing, but if he costs 5000 points hes not over-powered.

This list is based off the models I have played against. Hydras look OP on paper, but I've never faced them in the game, so cannot make a fair assessment.

Farseer
Doom and Fortune are incredible force multipliers. They make shuriken cats wounds T4 8/9 of the time, and T5 55% of the time.
The rules that make enemy psykers roll 3d6 for all tests is incredibly powerful. Its better (statically) than a psychic hood and its effective all over the board.

Vendetta
130 point points buying 3 TL LC, that can scout, move fast and deliver 10 IG vets? Its only 'weakness' is that it can be targeted from nearly anywhere on the board due to its size and height, but that nowhere nearly compensates for what this vehicle can deliver. It should be 175-200 points IMHO.
(note, IG vets did not make this cut, but only barely, if I had to pick a 4th OP unit, they would be it -- 3 PG + chimera = stupid effective)

Ork KFF
This one item changes the game for KoS armies and Ork Kan walls. Like the farseer, its an incredible force multiplier. Usually there is 1 - 2 turns of shooting before a KoS army is on top of you, and 2 - 3 turns before a Kan Wall does the same. The ability to give obscured to all those vehicles is incredibly powerful for the point cost.

Honorable Mentions
Null Zone
IG Vets
Ork Nobs on Bikes
Long Fangs
Master of the Fleet
TH/SS Termies
Sang Priests
Snikrot

idn why people think CSM special characters are so good... they aren't compared to other codex special characters.... if an HQ choice in CSM is broken then its either lash princes/sorc. or warptime princes

1) Vulkan... all flamers / meltas in army twin linked!!! whooo! and TH are master crafted! my god... unbelievable
2) TH/SS terminators, 3+ invul... common
3) BA fast moving vehicles- a vindicator that can move 12' and fire their blast is craziness IMO

Notable mentions:
Farseer doom/guide
The entire SW codex
Nightbringer

Any of the various SM/SW/BA librarians are awesome points for power.

Asgeirr Darkwolf wrote:Any of the various SM/SW/BA librarians are awesome points for power.

IMHO Null Zone pushes C:SM to the top in terms of librarians. No other power has as much (area of an effect) * (effect on target/ally)

Many of the other's powers are more destructive alone, and some are more powerfull, but Null Zone is the most universally usefull.

Bertimismaximus wrote:

Notable mentions:
Farseer doom/guide
The entire SW codex
Nightbringer

Nightbringer? Ok, you bring him and I'll bring ten sternguard in a drop pod (less points even). Let's see who is more worthy of the term "overpowered" Also, in 4 pages, as the most versatile unit in the game, I'm surprised sternguard haven't been called OP. They can drop pod in as a suicide squad to obliterate your opponent's most powerful unit or hang back and shoot with a multitude of different choices each turn. Can I change one of my old votes to sternguard as being OP?

GCMandrake wrote: *snip*

Enjoyed reading this.

stalkerzero wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Oblits are still considered overpowered? At 75pts each, 150 for a single squad of 2, and 225 for a full squad (now into ultra kitted Leman Russ territory and nearly Land Raider area), I'd consider them merely "ok".

I play 9 of them way, way too often to not consider them over powered because they are so versatile. And my army has two options for guns strength 8+.

Really? 2

Battle Cannon, Demolisher Cannon, melta gun, las cannon, missile launcher, and the noise marine gun.

Or if you mean units, Defilers, Vindicators, havoks, chosen, csm squads, noise marines, plague marines and oblits

edit:

on topic,
Logan
Manticores
eldrad

frenrik wrote:

Really? 2

Battle Cannon, Demolisher Cannon, melta gun, las cannon, missile launcher, and the noise marine gun.

Or if you mean units, Defilers, Vindicators, havoks, chosen, csm squads, noise marines, plague marines and oblits

Sorry, by my army I meant Necrons. Heavy Destroyers and the Monolith.

stalkerzero wrote:

frenrik wrote:

Really? 2

Battle Cannon, Demolisher Cannon, melta gun, las cannon, missile launcher, and the noise marine gun.

Or if you mean units, Defilers, Vindicators, havoks, chosen, csm squads, noise marines, plague marines and oblits

Sorry, by my army I meant Necrons. Heavy Destroyers and the Monolith.

Well necrons are special, and not in a good way. Their weapons were balanced off of a different damage result table, so now they struggle doing anything to vehicles at all.

Yeah - glancing hits used to be capable of destroying land raiders...

(Sigh.)

Anyone who says any necron unit is OP needs a serious slap.

It's a carefully guarded secret, but in 5th edition if a vehicle is Immobilized and has all of its Weapons Destroyed, then all further Immoblized and Weapon Destroyed results are converted to Destroyed (Wrecked). A Land Raider Phobos without any upgrades can be destroyed by five glancing hits.

Well.. yeah I knew that

I was alluding to the fact you could do it with a SINGLE glancing hit in the past!

liam0404 wrote:Well.. yeah I knew that

I was alluding to the fact you could do it with a SINGLE glancing hit in the past!

Which in my opinion didnt make a lot of sense. Mind you I am not saying the tables are good now.

for just power vs points:

ork boyz
long fangs
grey hunters

yeenoghu wrote:for just power vs points:

ork boyz
long fangs
grey hunters

Ork boyz? Really? What?

Anyway:

1. Mephiston. Really doesn't need explaining. If you've ever played against him, you'll know why every second post in this thread includes him.
2. Vendettas. 3 twin-linked lascannons for 30 points more than a Valk.
3. Long Fangs. Once again, heavily featured in this thread for obvious reasons.

Do you ever see them in units of less than 30 without a PK nob (except for end-of-list last minute points lacking)? point for point with the T and the number of attacks they're swinging that's a pretty disgusting number of unbreakable wounds to bring down that can hit back a LOT. Compare them to any other basic troop unit used in large numbers. Throw in the fact that they Waagh at you so you really don't have much time to gun them down. Granted one boy is nothing special (but still better and cheaper than 1 guardsman, 1 guardian, 1 gaunt) but compiled with all the almost required way they are fielded in groups with a nob, thats seriously ugly compared to what any other army can do with the same number of points.

They look nice on paper, but fearless is a liability when you are 6+ armor. Also that armor gets APed by everything. Flamers, blasts large and small, and small arms of any army pretty much rip that squad into uselessness pretty quick.

You want to bring 100 models that don't suck? bring horde sisters. 100 power armor BS 4 girls with faith powered rending attacks.... and you can do it under 1500 point including HQ.