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Laodamia wrote:

Backfire wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
A bog standard Baneblade Superheavy Tank called Father Time tanked being fired upon by an entire formation of Tau Hammerheads armed with railguns with nothing to show for it other than a few inch deep craters, a wrecked sponsoon gun, and a banged up paint job.

And in other fluff, a Baneblade was destroyed by Krootox Riders...

How did they ever manage to do that??? o.0 By eating the baneblade?
In what novel did it take place?

It's on Battle Missions, "Linebreaker" mission fluff. Baneblade immobilized by Hammerhead, then destroyed by Krootox Riders. See, they're not so tough.

Kilkrazy wrote:If the IoM can build an 800m long battlecruiser every day, why have they invaded the Eye of Terror with their 3.5 million ships they have built in the past 10,000 years?

How come they can build a battlecruiser every day, but only about 10 heavy tanks and terminator armour suits a year?

Shhhh. Get out of here with that crazy thing called logic; we'll have none of that here. Geez, Raid (bug killer) has been around for 40k years by the time this game takes place and yet planet after planet is eaten by Tyranids.

Kilkrazy wrote:

agnosto wrote:I get it, I get it; Imperium technology is so great that all the races in the galaxy have been destroyed....oh wait, they haven't so obviously it's not all powerful like some of you are trying to convince everyone of.

Yeah, kinda.

If the IoM can build an 800m long battlecruiser every day, why have they invaded the Eye of Terror with their 3.5 million ships they have built in the past 10,000 years?

How come they can build a battlecruiser every day, but only about 10 heavy tanks and terminator armour suits a year?

"Invade the Eye of Terror"? You don't "invade" the Eye of Terror any more than you "invade" the warp. It's not as though the fleets inside can break through the Cadian Gate with more than the rare blockade runner. The naval forces picketing Cadia alone outnumber the whole of the traitor fleets inside it.

I honestly don't believe that only ten baneblades can be produced in a year, unless there's a very low loss rate and demand for them, in which case it makes sense that the production facilities would be used for equipment that's in higher demand. Terminator suits I'm more inclined to believe, though. Not because they're just that hard to make, but because they're hideously impractical, expensive toys for the Space Marines, who make up a smaller percent of the Imperial Military machine than the Titan legions stationed on Mars alone. Space Marines are outnumbered by the Guard's main battle tanks, by the Guard's superheavy tanks, presumably by the battleships of the Imperial Navy... How big a priority can giving them some shiny new toys that cost more than it takes to arm several regiments be?

Kilkrazy wrote:

agnosto wrote:I get it, I get it; Imperium technology is so great that all the races in the galaxy have been destroyed....oh wait, they haven't so obviously it's not all powerful like some of you are trying to convince everyone of.

Yeah, kinda.

If the IoM can build an 800m long battlecruiser every day, why have they invaded the Eye of Terror with their 3.5 million ships they have built in the past 10,000 years?

How come they can build a battlecruiser every day, but only about 10 heavy tanks and terminator armour suits a year?

Because they also lose 1 battlecruiser everyday, sometimes 2.
Also they make 0 Terminator suits every year.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

agnosto wrote:I get it, I get it; Imperium technology is so great that all the races in the galaxy have been destroyed....oh wait, they haven't so obviously it's not all powerful like some of you are trying to convince everyone of.

Yeah, kinda.

If the IoM can build an 800m long battlecruiser every day, why have they invaded the Eye of Terror with their 3.5 million ships they have built in the past 10,000 years?

How come they can build a battlecruiser every day, but only about 10 heavy tanks and terminator armour suits a year?

Because they also lose 1 battlecruiser everyday, sometimes 2.
Also they make 0 Terminator suits every year.

No.
They make everything neccessary to be part of the storys of GW and BL.

The perfect cycle.
Nobody will ever run out of units.

And I'd prefer sources for these wierd numbers some are pulling here.

1hadhq wrote:
And I'd prefer sources for these wierd numbers some are pulling here.

This.

1hadhq wrote:No.
They make everything neccessary to be part of the storys of GW and BL.

The perfect cycle.
Nobody will ever run out of units.

+1

Why can they make so much battleships? So that we can play BFG.
Why can they make so few Baneblades? Because it costs 450pts.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Yeah, kinda.

If the IoM can build an 800m long battlecruiser every day, why have they invaded the Eye of Terror with their 3.5 million ships they have built in the past 10,000 years?

How come they can build a battlecruiser every day, but only about 10 heavy tanks and terminator armour suits a year?

IIRC Stbss build Baneblades like Chinese munition for the AK
The same logical question would be that USA can build Abrams MBT in hundreds and only 1 Raptor per year.
And none ship, even Necron and Eldar ones, can't navigate in Warp space. And EoT is swarming with Chaos Daemons.

If IoM didn't have to much enemies, than IG would be replaced by billions of SM.
Tau tech is awesome, but even they fail when it comes to fight against the forces of the Warp.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

agnosto wrote:I get it, I get it; Imperium technology is so great that all the races in the galaxy have been destroyed....oh wait, they haven't so obviously it's not all powerful like some of you are trying to convince everyone of.

Yeah, kinda.

If the IoM can build an 800m long battlecruiser every day, why have they invaded the Eye of Terror with their 3.5 million ships they have built in the past 10,000 years?

How come they can build a battlecruiser every day, but only about 10 heavy tanks and terminator armour suits a year?

Because they also lose 1 battlecruiser everyday, sometimes 2.
Also they make 0 Terminator suits every year.

Actually, Terminator armor is quite replicable. the main reason they don't make completely new suits is that it is far easier to repair a pre-existing suit then build a new one from scratch.

chapters only maintain Terminator armor for the First Company and as such don't need a massive number of suits. they simply maintain the current suits.


if a new chapter is founded you can bet that some new suits are made. and there was quite abit of wargear left over after the heresy. 2nd founding chapters and original Legion members tend to be rolling in equipment and Cashes of Equipment are constantly being found.

Retribution wrote:I'd just like to point out that the AK-47 has been redesigned, numerous times...hence the 74, 101, 103, and 107


Automatically Appended Next Post:

crazypsyko666 wrote:Let me put it this way: Tau technology is more progressive, but the Imperium's tech is enough to mass produce supermen with weapons that tear down planets. While all is degrading in the Imperium, what's left is arguably some of the most powerful stuff in the galaxy. Tau technology is also significantly more narrow. They work mostly on machines and computers, while the Imperium has a much broader focus. They work on not only warmachines, but vast pieces of industry, biological enhancements and genetics. Tau have what? Better first aid kits?

The Tau do have biological enhancements, hence the stories of veteran battlesuit pilots with cybernetic replacement limbs, and battlesuit neural interfaces

That's not biological. That's prosthetic. I'm talking about gene enhancement, like the space marine project. Entirely organic substances manufactured or grown in-body. You're talking about computerized prosthetics attaching to bodies using basically the same amount of biology as we do today (possibly more advanced neurology, however.)

crazypsyko666 wrote:

Retribution wrote:I'd just like to point out that the AK-47 has been redesigned, numerous times...hence the 74, 101, 103, and 107


Automatically Appended Next Post:

crazypsyko666 wrote:Let me put it this way: Tau technology is more progressive, but the Imperium's tech is enough to mass produce supermen with weapons that tear down planets. While all is degrading in the Imperium, what's left is arguably some of the most powerful stuff in the galaxy. Tau technology is also significantly more narrow. They work mostly on machines and computers, while the Imperium has a much broader focus. They work on not only warmachines, but vast pieces of industry, biological enhancements and genetics. Tau have what? Better first aid kits?

The Tau do have biological enhancements, hence the stories of veteran battlesuit pilots with cybernetic replacement limbs, and battlesuit neural interfaces

That's not biological. That's prosthetic. I'm talking about gene enhancement, like the space marine project. Entirely organic substances manufactured or grown in-body. You're talking about computerized prosthetics attaching to bodies using basically the same amount of biology as we do today (possibly more advanced neurology, however.)

Also, because Tau have alien allies with more physical prowess, they might not feel as strong a need for bio egineering. Why make super Tau when you can send in your xeno friends who're fine with combat.

crazypsyko666 wrote:

Retribution wrote:I'd just like to point out that the AK-47 has been redesigned, numerous times...hence the 74, 101, 103, and 107


Automatically Appended Next Post:

crazypsyko666 wrote:Let me put it this way: Tau technology is more progressive, but the Imperium's tech is enough to mass produce supermen with weapons that tear down planets. While all is degrading in the Imperium, what's left is arguably some of the most powerful stuff in the galaxy. Tau technology is also significantly more narrow. They work mostly on machines and computers, while the Imperium has a much broader focus. They work on not only warmachines, but vast pieces of industry, biological enhancements and genetics. Tau have what? Better first aid kits?

The Tau do have biological enhancements, hence the stories of veteran battlesuit pilots with cybernetic replacement limbs, and battlesuit neural interfaces

That's not biological. That's prosthetic. I'm talking about gene enhancement, like the space marine project. Entirely organic substances manufactured or grown in-body. You're talking about computerized prosthetics attaching to bodies using basically the same amount of biology as we do today (possibly more advanced neurology, however.)

Also Tau biology differs from cast to caste. The fire caste has bred nothing but warriors for the last several thousand generations. Its not as exact as actually manipulating the genes like SM do, but it dose have an effect.

Also Keep in mind traditional Tau war doctrine disregards me-lee combat, so they would likely have little reason to even do genetic manipulation in that regard.

Psychosaur wrote:

crazypsyko666 wrote:

Retribution wrote:I'd just like to point out that the AK-47 has been redesigned, numerous times...hence the 74, 101, 103, and 107


Automatically Appended Next Post:

crazypsyko666 wrote:Let me put it this way: Tau technology is more progressive, but the Imperium's tech is enough to mass produce supermen with weapons that tear down planets. While all is degrading in the Imperium, what's left is arguably some of the most powerful stuff in the galaxy. Tau technology is also significantly more narrow. They work mostly on machines and computers, while the Imperium has a much broader focus. They work on not only warmachines, but vast pieces of industry, biological enhancements and genetics. Tau have what? Better first aid kits?

The Tau do have biological enhancements, hence the stories of veteran battlesuit pilots with cybernetic replacement limbs, and battlesuit neural interfaces

That's not biological. That's prosthetic. I'm talking about gene enhancement, like the space marine project. Entirely organic substances manufactured or grown in-body. You're talking about computerized prosthetics attaching to bodies using basically the same amount of biology as we do today (possibly more advanced neurology, however.)

Also Tau biology differs from cast to caste. The fire caste has bred nothing but warriors for the last several thousand generations. Its not as exact as actually manipulating the genes like SM do, but it dose have an effect.

Also Keep in mind traditional Tau war doctrine disregards me-lee combat, so they would likely have little reason to even do genetic manipulation in that regard.

That's breeding. Science-hating priests have been doing it for over a thousand years. Breeding perfection is nothing new, just look at our dogs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Nobody wrote:

crazypsyko666 wrote:

Retribution wrote:I'd just like to point out that the AK-47 has been redesigned, numerous times...hence the 74, 101, 103, and 107


Automatically Appended Next Post:

crazypsyko666 wrote:Let me put it this way: Tau technology is more progressive, but the Imperium's tech is enough to mass produce supermen with weapons that tear down planets. While all is degrading in the Imperium, what's left is arguably some of the most powerful stuff in the galaxy. Tau technology is also significantly more narrow. They work mostly on machines and computers, while the Imperium has a much broader focus. They work on not only warmachines, but vast pieces of industry, biological enhancements and genetics. Tau have what? Better first aid kits?

The Tau do have biological enhancements, hence the stories of veteran battlesuit pilots with cybernetic replacement limbs, and battlesuit neural interfaces

That's not biological. That's prosthetic. I'm talking about gene enhancement, like the space marine project. Entirely organic substances manufactured or grown in-body. You're talking about computerized prosthetics attaching to bodies using basically the same amount of biology as we do today (possibly more advanced neurology, however.)

Also, because Tau have alien allies with more physical prowess, they might not feel as strong a need for bio egineering. Why make super Tau when you can send in your xeno friends who're fine with combat.

And that's an excuse for having less knowledge about biology?

You don't know the Tau have less knowledge about biology. There is so little fluff about the Tau that we know almost nothing of their society, politics and technology, or anything except current front line military.

The key point to all IoM knowledge is that it is guarded, restricted, proscribed and altogether available only to a tiny elite who do not understand it and treat it as a special religion.

It's like the rats on a cruise ship. They get to go all over the world in air conditioned luxury, eating the best foods, and experiencing many different climates and countries (if they get odd the ship).

But they haven't got the faintest idea what is happening.

Most of the IoM is like that.

Kilkrazy wrote:It's like the rats on a cruise ship. They get to go all over the world in air conditioned luxury, eating the best foods, and experiencing many different climates and countries (if they get odd the ship).

But they haven't got the faintest idea what is happening.

Most of the IoM is like that.

I like this analogy. I'd argue that much of the Adeptus Mechancus do have some sort of basic understanding of the more banal tech pieces, but in the large you're right.

Would this be similar to say, the Convenant in Halo? They don't truly understand the technology behind most of their weaponry, much of it is reverse engineered. Whereas the principles of human tech is understood completely.

The adeptus mechanicus are like the crew.

They understand enough of how the technology works in order to operate it and do some basic repairs if it goes wrong. There is no-one on board who actually knows how to design and build everything, though.

I have to say, this is just the impression I get from the fluff. For all I know, the IoM has worlds of research scientists and engineers, and is furiously designing new stuff all the time. Maybe none of it ever gets released.

Kilkrazy wrote:
I have to say, this is just the impression I get from the fluff. For all I know, the IoM has worlds of research scientists and engineers, and is furiously designing new stuff all the time. Maybe none of it ever gets released.

The Tyranid Codex mentions the Imperium abandoning a Experimental Weapons World (essentially a Forge World for...experimental stuff?). The Orks get hold of it, using the stuff to blow themselves and much of the invading nids during their 'tests'.

Kilkrazy wrote:
For all I know, the IoM has worlds of research scientists and engineers, and is furiously designing new stuff all the time. Maybe none of it ever gets released.

That's actually what it appears to be. There is research done to produce new and better weapons, or new variants of existing ones. This doesn't really enter production, because what has been produced is cheaper, simpler, more reliable, in higher demand (being the existing standard and all), or any combination of the above. Someone like an Inquisitor might get a piece of experimental or otherwise unfit for mass deployment technology, if they have a reason and happen to know about it, but the Munitorum for instance would consider it heresy to adopt new weapons on any but the smallest of scales, centuries from the present.

Kilkrazy wrote:The adeptus mechanicus are like the crew.

They understand enough of how the technology works in order to operate it and do some basic repairs if it goes wrong. There is no-one on board who actually knows how to design and build everything, though.

That's not specifically true. it's more accurate to say that there's noone creative enough. those at the top certainly know enough to design new weapons, but they're more machine now, than man, and thus have lost their creativity for the most part. Those at the bottom might be creative enough still, but they have problems with the understanding part.

crazypsyko666 wrote:

Retribution wrote:I'd just like to point out that the AK-47 has been redesigned, numerous times...hence the 74, 101, 103, and 107


Automatically Appended Next Post:

crazypsyko666 wrote:Let me put it this way: Tau technology is more progressive, but the Imperium's tech is enough to mass produce supermen with weapons that tear down planets. While all is degrading in the Imperium, what's left is arguably some of the most powerful stuff in the galaxy. Tau technology is also significantly more narrow. They work mostly on machines and computers, while the Imperium has a much broader focus. They work on not only warmachines, but vast pieces of industry, biological enhancements and genetics. Tau have what? Better first aid kits?

The Tau do have biological enhancements, hence the stories of veteran battlesuit pilots with cybernetic replacement limbs, and battlesuit neural interfaces

That's not biological. That's prosthetic. I'm talking about gene enhancement, like the space marine project. Entirely organic substances manufactured or grown in-body. You're talking about computerized prosthetics attaching to bodies using basically the same amount of biology as we do today (possibly more advanced neurology, however.)

I wouldn't say cybernetic prosthetics are common today, then again i don't see many giant robotic-suits running around in Iraq either...just maybe they're more advanced...by a little bit

Imperial society discourages technological advances because such advances may result to societal upheaval. Dark Age of Technology was just that and IoM does not want it to happen again. Like all major structures, IoM is interested mostly on its survival and preservation, and wants to keep things stable. Treating technology in religious manner is a great way to control potentially instabilising technological advances.

This does not mean that no innovations or technological advances are ever made. But it must be a daunting task for innovator to convince everyone that this new technology is safe and its profileration does not lead to unwanted consequences. It probably requires horrible amount of bureaucracy and theological debating.

From Imperial point of view, Tau are on their way to ruin with their rapid, uncontrolled technological advances. Tau of course disagree, saying that they are doing it smarter & better than the Imperium. Just like humans have always balked at Eldar warnings...what can those old losers who themselves screwed things up can possibly teach us??

From a practical viewpoint, an active, large scale research and development programme like the IoM’s, which never produces anything useful, is just a huge waste of resources.

Kilkrazy wrote:From a practical viewpoint, an active, large scale research and development programme like the IoM’s, which never produces anything useful, is just a huge waste of resources.

Probably quite a lot of that programme is actually dedicated for investigating and scrutinizing new designs..."Look! I figured a way to reconfigure those condensators so that the power output of this Plasma gun improves by 12%!" "Hmmm...after consulting the Holy Synod of Divine Plasma, they point out that your reconfiguration violates what the Apocrypha of Amalthea, Book II Chapter 4, has stated about the proper order of Type XII plasma condensators." "Err...hmm...yes but I think that the Council's interpretation from M37 actually misinterpreted the wording and..."

Basically, it's probably like a huge variant of YMDC.

Kilkrazy wrote:From a practical viewpoint, an active, large scale research and development programme like the IoM’s, which never produces anything useful, is just a huge waste of resources.

Actually, they are finding new things, that will probably be produced... tomorrow. And we now that in space (at least in 40k), tomorrow never happens

Notable technology advances by the IoM in the past 15,000 years.

M27.877.908
Put bobbles on the left pauldron of power armour.

M33.865.776
Removed bobbles from the left pauldron of power armour.
Changed the helmet design from being pointy to deflect projectiles, to being flat to act as a bullet trap.

M36.667.846
Attached a gun turret on top of the Rhino. Removed the mobility self-repair mechanism.

M39.867.127
Recovered Tau plasma technology. Decided it was too dangerous to use.

Kilkrazy wrote:
I, Killkrazy, admit I don't know anything about the Imperium of Man

Suggested correction.

Kilkrazy wrote:Notable technology advances by the IoM in the past 15,000 years.

M27.877.908
Put bobbles on the left pauldron of power armour.

M33.865.776
Removed bobbles from the left pauldron of power armour.
Changed the helmet design from being pointy to deflect projectiles, to being flat to act as a bullet trap.

M36.667.846
Attached a gun turret on top of the Rhino. Removed the mobility self-repair mechanism.

M39.867.127
Recovered Tau plasma technology. Decided it was too dangerous to use.

hahaha

Nice point. + 1

There has been more than just that

There is a movie called the battle for terra, I saw some of it with my siblings and it is aimed more at a younger audience. However in the story humans ran out of resources on earth (go figure) so they terraformed and colonized mars and Venus. The two other planets wanted independence so war broke out and the planets were blown to hell, including Earth. Therefore the survivors of the war went to the nearest habitable planet (the setting) and began gathering the natives and blowin' stuff up. In the beginning of the movie the natives look primitive and peaceful, however later you find out that they have advanced weaponry none of the regular natives know about. The secrecy keeps the tech from being used for wrong and to hurt each other. The leaders of the civilization blind them with religion and other cultural things to keep the world at peace. It reminded me very much of the IoM.

It's a clever idea. I think the Kroot are like that, actually.

The thing about the IoM, though, is that it has been in the worst crisis in its history for the past 10,000 years, so if they haven't cracked out the hidden real technology yet, it's because there isn't any.