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I don't understand th question. Humanity has been losing tech for approx. 10,000 years. They can't make anything new and most of their tech that is around is worshiped as supposed to maintained AND several thousand years old AND irreplaceable.

If we are talking 30-35-ish K imperium wins/is moving towards a tie. but as of now, in short, no.

in long : NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Kilkrazy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
Even million Railguns won't help against even one of him. Imperials can hold entire SOLAR SYSTEM with one Imperator.

What a pity they did not put one on Cadia.

...Touché.

Johnnyboy955 wrote:I don't understand th question. Humanity has been losing tech for approx. 10,000 years. They can't make anything new and most of their tech that is around is worshiped as supposed to maintained AND several thousand years old AND irreplaceable.

If we are talking 30-35-ish K imperium wins/is moving towards a tie. but as of now, in short, no.

in long : NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I am afraid you are wrong.


The Imperium has lost very little technology since the Horus Heresy.

Humanity, on the other hand, has lost quite abit since the Dark Age.



the Imperium actually has greater scientific knowledge then when the Emperor began the Great Crusade.

Power armor continues to improve. new marks come out every so often and each provides better protection and equipment then the previous.

many, MANY, STCs were rediscovered during the Great Crusade and many continue to be rediscovered even to the present.


most of the Lost tech was lost during the Old Night. when humanity was sundered from itself for several thousand years. most of this Tech is either still lost on Planets that haven't been rediscovered yet. some of it is lost for good.


Mars contains much lost tech too. buried in the catacombs and tunnels. thats where Land Raiders and Land Speeders were rediscovered(and named for the Arch Magos who found them)

the Ad Mech just has to sort through the piles of Information to patch things up. schematics are often scrambled and unusable, they have to use their previous knowledge to reinvent some of the technology.


the Ad Mech also has finite resources to do this with. they have to sort through an effectivly infinite amount of Information, much of it encrypted, to rebuild stuff. they are literally on information overload.


the Imperiums common tech level hasn't improved much because they have found designs that work and are extreamly effective at the job asked to do. the basic lasgun, and all the thousands of variants there are on it, is the weapon that makes the most sense for the Imperium to use. it's dirt cheap to make, easy to use and maintain, ammo is in a practically limitless supply(charge it in a fire FTW!!!) and the weapon is effective against pretty much any foe whether it be an Ork boy, Eldar guardian, or Termagant.

Lemun Russ battle tanks. they run on practically any combustable fluid, are heavily armored, cheap and easy to produce, and have powerful weapons for different tasks.


ask yourself this question. Why is the AK-47 still in use today, practically unchanged from the original design, while the M-16 is constantly being revamped, upgraded, and altered. the M-16 will likely be replaced soon, with a weapon based on the AK-47. because the AK-47 is a simple design that works in practically any conditions with almost no drop in usability. M-14s and M-16s would jam quite often in Vietnam, so much so that American soldiers would pick up AK-47s because their guns weren't operating due to the conditions.

most of the Imperiums tech works like the AK-47. it always works, never jams, and is easy to produce.

i will bet that the AK-47 will be used for the next century, if not several centuries, because it's a winning design. the Imperium has found winning designs of Technology. why fix that which isn't broken?

I've always said that the greatest weapon in 40k isn't the plasma destructor, or the nova cannon or even the bolter, but the lasgun.

The imperium can give every one of their trillions of guardsmen a lasgun which must eman they're incredibly cheap to produce and ammo is probably cheaper. In emergencies they can be recharged making the ammo supply almost limitless. Combined with a massive logistical support structure a guard regiment takes 3 years of heavy fighting to eat up the same supplies that a armoured regiment uses in about a month.

These men with lasguns regularly hold off and defeat super humans, horrible aliens and yes, even the tau. Compared to that you can ahve the greatest tech in the world and it still doesn't matter. The IoM can mobilize, train and equip more men for cheaper than anyone else.

The imeprium also posses the ability to create space marines, this is a massive feat of medical science to create some of the finest warriors ever. (Fluff wise anyway) I don't think anyone has managed to achieve something like that.

Let me put it this way: Tau technology is more progressive, but the Imperium's tech is enough to mass produce supermen with weapons that tear down planets. While all is degrading in the Imperium, what's left is arguably some of the most powerful stuff in the galaxy. Tau technology is also significantly more narrow. They work mostly on machines and computers, while the Imperium has a much broader focus. They work on not only warmachines, but vast pieces of industry, biological enhancements and genetics. Tau have what? Better first aid kits?

Grey Templar wrote:
Mars contains much lost tech too. buried in the catacombs and tunnels. thats where Land Raiders and Land Speeders were rediscovered(and named for the Arch Magos who found them)

Ah, good ol' Arch Magos Land, and his faithful colleagues Raider and Speeder. They could make an Imperator titan from a pack of chewing gum and a roll of duct tape. Sadly, such things were long since lost by their day, so they had to settle for thousands of tons of adamantium, which is tragically a great deal more expensive.

the Imperiums common tech level hasn't improved much because they have found designs that work and are extreamly effective at the job asked to do. the basic lasgun, and all the thousands of variants there are on it, is the weapon that makes the most sense for the Imperium to use. it's dirt cheap to make, easy to use and maintain, ammo is in a practically limitless supply(charge it in a fire FTW!!!) and the weapon is effective against pretty much any foe whether it be an Ork boy, Eldar guardian, or Termagant.

Lemun Russ battle tanks. they run on practically any combustable fluid, are heavily armored, cheap and easy to produce, and have powerful weapons for different tasks.


ask yourself this question. Why is the AK-47 still in use today, practically unchanged from the original design, while the M-16 is constantly being revamped, upgraded, and altered. the M-16 will likely be replaced soon, with a weapon based on the AK-47. because the AK-47 is a simple design that works in practically any conditions with almost no drop in usability. M-14s and M-16s would jam quite often in Vietnam, so much so that American soldiers would pick up AK-47s because their guns weren't operating due to the conditions.

most of the Imperiums tech works like the AK-47. it always works, never jams, and is easy to produce.

i will bet that the AK-47 will be used for the next century, if not several centuries, because it's a winning design. the Imperium has found winning designs of Technology. why fix that which isn't broken?

Yep. Though note, modern variants of the M-16 are far more reliable than the originals, if still absurdly complex. Similarly, more advanced versions of the AK-47 are slightly less reliable, due to their increase in complexity and reliance on precision parts. Of course, the Lasgun is basically an AK-47 that's perfectly accurate, hits like a high-powered sniper rifle, and can be reloaded by setting its ammo on fire. Presumably, it's manufactured from half a dozen machine stamped pieces snapped together like legos by a low ranking techpriest, with a little superglue to hold them all together.

Kilkrazy wrote:

What a pity they did not put one on Cadia.

Titans have been toned down from the earlier fluff.In Execution Hour it is said that Titan weaponry will barely scratch the surface of a warship.

The battery of a lasgun is an astonishingly advanced and complex piece of technology.

I was part of a thread much like this a while ago. The person I was debating with continually said that there was no proof that lasgun's were easier to produce than Tau weapons.....
arguing this I said it was common sense there didn't need to be proof. To arm trillions upon trillions of men you needed a cheap easily produced weapon.


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The thread ended up being locked so there's really no point to giving a link unless anyone wants one. I believe Killkrazy is the one who locked it. Do you remember the argument im talking about?

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I was part of a thread much like this a while ago. The person I was debating with continually said that there was no proof that lasgun's were easier to produce than Tau weapons.....
arguing this I said it was common sense there didn't need to be proof. To arm trillions upon trillions of men you needed a cheap easily produced weapon.

No, you just need a massive production capacity. Suppose a pulse rifle is 10 times easier to make than a lasgun, but the lasgun factory has 100 times the capacity. How many lasguns will get made for each pulse rifle?

Yes I didn't think of that. However I have always read about the lasguns maintainability. Complicated weapons tend to be harder to maintain. (Although I agree with you that the battery is an incredible device) Though the batteries could even be easy to produce in this time. That's what I think of the lasgun.

The lasgun and battery are probably a solid state device with about four moving parts -- the battery, the bayonet catch, and the sling swivels. Once the parts are available it can be glued together fairly easily.

However, growing laser crystal substrate to the required purity isn't easy. You need a very pure vacuum, pure raw materials and ideally a microgravity environment.

These things are all quite high tech. If your technology is advanced, it will be possible to build these things and automate them to produce the laser crystals in large quantities.

However you could never make such crystals by hand, in the way that an AK47 can be made by hand.

What probably happens in the IoM is that the laser crystals and the batteries are made by an STC, the other parts are made by hand, and then everything is assembled by hand.

IvanTih wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

What a pity they did not put one on Cadia.

Titans have been toned down from the earlier fluff.In Execution Hour it is said that Titan weaponry will barely scratch the surface of a warship.

The imperial fleet FTW!!!

Actually, the smallest warship in the Navy's arsenals is the Cobra-class Destroyer (battleships are 10 or 20 times that size...). And it is 800 m long! On the other hand, an Imperator Titan is "only" 150m high (or 300 m, depending on the source). Not surpising that the Imperator will not do much against a warship.
And guess what? Cobra destroyers are so cheap, so mass produced, that there are hundreds of thousands of them spread all around the IoM. There are so many of these ships, that they are not even given a proper name, but a serial number like KV14267P...
Do you really think Tau war industry can do the same?

IIRC, Cobra destroyers are built in 1 day and Ship yards can do dozens at a time.

Laodamia wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

What a pity they did not put one on Cadia.

Titans have been toned down from the earlier fluff.In Execution Hour it is said that Titan weaponry will barely scratch the surface of a warship.

The imperial fleet FTW!!!

Actually, the smallest warship in the Navy's arsenals is the Cobra-class Destroyer (battleships are 10 or 20 times that size...). And it is 800 m long! On the other hand, an Imperator Titan is "only" 150m high (or 300 m, depending on the source). Not surpising that the Imperator will not do much against a warship.
And guess what? Cobra destroyers are so cheap, so mass produced, that there are hundreds of thousands of them spread all around the IoM. There are so many of these ships, that they are not even given a proper name, but a serial number like KV14267P...
Do you really think Tau war industry can do the same?

I should imagine they could build the seed for a fleet of aggressively hegemonizing Von Neumann machines if they wanted to. They have got AI after all.

I'd say that the Imperium on Man has a better tech... now the thing changes when it comes to technicians.

Tau are willing to expand their horizons, while in my opinion, most Ad-Mech know what they do as well as -I- do. They just happend to have simple and very utilitarian designs (Standard Templace Constructs) and good instruction manuals (rituals).

Kilkrazy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:A Manta killed a Titan on Taros.

An Warhound, smallest and weakest of all the Titans. We are talking about Imperator Titan with Void Shields Heavy Plasma Batteries. The one that destroyed Tyranid Bio-Titan with ine shot.


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agnosto wrote:
You obviously don't know how many railguns a like force of Tau would field when facing titans. At 2000 points, I field 5+ I've actually aced a warhound in the first turn of shooting before.

Tau are not afraid of giant robots or spaceships, they ARE afraid of the limitless numbers of IG that can just keep throwing themselves willy-nilly at them ala Siege of Saint Petersburg...

Even million Railguns won't help against even one of him. Imperials can hold entire SOLAR SYSTEM with one Imperator.

What a pity they did not put one on Cadia.

They did. Cadia held - again.

I'd just like to point out that the AK-47 has been redesigned, numerous times...hence the 74, 101, 103, and 107


Automatically Appended Next Post:

crazypsyko666 wrote:Let me put it this way: Tau technology is more progressive, but the Imperium's tech is enough to mass produce supermen with weapons that tear down planets. While all is degrading in the Imperium, what's left is arguably some of the most powerful stuff in the galaxy. Tau technology is also significantly more narrow. They work mostly on machines and computers, while the Imperium has a much broader focus. They work on not only warmachines, but vast pieces of industry, biological enhancements and genetics. Tau have what? Better first aid kits?

The Tau do have biological enhancements, hence the stories of veteran battlesuit pilots with cybernetic replacement limbs, and battlesuit neural interfaces

I get it, I get it; Imperium technology is so great that all the races in the galaxy have been destroyed....oh wait, they haven't so obviously it's not all powerful like some of you are trying to convince everyone of.

agnosto wrote:I get it, I get it; Imperium technology is so great that all the races in the galaxy would have been destroyed..
They are just kept around as moving targets and as seen in the HH, you don't want SM thinking too much so keep them busy...

Fixed.

agnosto wrote:I get it, I get it; Imperium technology is so great that all the races in the galaxy have been destroyed....oh wait, they haven't so obviously it's not all powerful like some of you are trying to convince everyone of.

The IoM is constantly in a state of war against Chaos worshippers, renegades, xenos empires, tyranids, pirate raiders, etc.

It has held in this very precarious situation for 10 000 years. Over the years, the IoM crushed uncountable xenos and chaos empires. I doubt any other race could have achieved a fraction of the IoM's military history.
How did the IoM survive? Thanks to its tech.

Laodamia wrote:The IoM is constantly in a state of war against Chaos worshippers, renegades, xenos empires, tyranids, pirate raiders, etc.

It has held in this very precarious situation for 10 000 years. Over the years, the IoM crushed uncountable xenos and chaos empires. I doubt any other race could have achieved a fraction of the IoM's military history.
How did the IoM survive? Thanks to its tech.

So your point is that there is no point in these other factions existing at all since they'll inevitably be wiped out by the IoM.

agnosto wrote:
So your point is that there is no point in these other factions existing at all since they'll inevitably be wiped out by the IoM.

How did you come up with a conclusion like that? I never said anything like your post.
I said that the IoM survived thanks to its tech, and that no other race in the W40K universe could have done the same in the IoM's situation.

agnosto wrote:I get it, I get it; Imperium technology is so great that all the races in the galaxy have been destroyed....oh wait, they haven't so obviously it's not all powerful like some of you are trying to convince everyone of.

Well can you even imagine the size of the galaxy? And found a way to kill a daemon? Imperium is stretched across Milky Way from one side to other, while Tau empire is empire with several solar systems. Like comparing San Marino with the rest of the world. And Tau is fighting against several Ork raids, what's left of Hive Fleet Behemot, Eldar pirate raids and they have several Necron incursions (on Imperial planets). IoM is fighting all that + 100 times more. Tau didn't have some major opponent since the founding of the empire, and they get lucky last when the Imperium attacked them because of Hive Fleet Kraken. Tau are way to much lucky race

My conclusion at the end: Tau have advanced technology - Imperium has more practical.

Grey Templar wrote:
I am afraid you are wrong.

The Imperium has lost very little technology since the Horus Heresy.

Humanity, on the other hand, has lost quite abit since the Dark Age.

the Imperium actually has greater scientific knowledge then when the Emperor began the Great Crusade.

Probably true if you only consider how many different weapons systems and other technological devices are in existence, but if you look at production capacity, Imperium is far worse off today than pre-Heresy. Much of the high-end stuff either can be produced in dwindling numbers, or not at all, since there is little understanding of technology used and individual Forge Worlds jealously guard their secrets. Take something like Leman Russ Executioner. If the last Forge World producing the tank is eaten by Tyranids, or some lab assistent spills coffee on a crucial STC printout, no more Executioners. By contrast, Tau can simply put their scientists to work to produce some new variant of Hammerhead and then Earth Caste can build a factory and crank them out as many as are needed.

Laodamia wrote:

agnosto wrote:
So your point is that there is no point in these other factions existing at all since they'll inevitably be wiped out by the IoM.

How did you come up with a conclusion like that? I never said anything like your post.
I said that the IoM survived thanks to its tech, and that no other race in the W40K universe could have done the same in the IoM's situation.

Yeah, humor doesn't always translate well over the interwebs. I was just being a butt.

Laodamia wrote:

agnosto wrote:I get it, I get it; Imperium technology is so great that all the races in the galaxy have been destroyed....oh wait, they haven't so obviously it's not all powerful like some of you are trying to convince everyone of.

The IoM is constantly in a state of war against Chaos worshippers, renegades, xenos empires, tyranids, pirate raiders, etc.

It has held in this very precarious situation for 10 000 years. Over the years, the IoM crushed uncountable xenos and chaos empires. I doubt any other race could have achieved a fraction of the IoM's military history.
How did the IoM survive? Thanks to its tech.

And it's faith

Praise the Emperor for he is the salvation of Mankind

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IvanTih wrote:
A bog standard Baneblade Superheavy Tank called Father Time tanked being fired upon by an entire formation of Tau Hammerheads armed with railguns with nothing to show for it other than a few inch deep craters, a wrecked sponsoon gun, and a banged up paint job.

And in other fluff, a Baneblade was destroyed by Krootox Riders...

Backfire wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
A bog standard Baneblade Superheavy Tank called Father Time tanked being fired upon by an entire formation of Tau Hammerheads armed with railguns with nothing to show for it other than a few inch deep craters, a wrecked sponsoon gun, and a banged up paint job.

And in other fluff, a Baneblade was destroyed by Krootox Riders...

How did they ever manage to do that??? o.0 By eating the baneblade?
In what novel did it take place?

agnosto wrote:I get it, I get it; Imperium technology is so great that all the races in the galaxy have been destroyed....oh wait, they haven't so obviously it's not all powerful like some of you are trying to convince everyone of.

Yeah, kinda.

If the IoM can build an 800m long battlecruiser every day, why have they invaded the Eye of Terror with their 3.5 million ships they have built in the past 10,000 years?

How come they can build a battlecruiser every day, but only about 10 heavy tanks and terminator armour suits a year?