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Manchu wrote:@chibi: Being frustrated that the hyperbole tends to the negative is not being censorious. As for being magnanimous to fellow users, you really have no idea. In your scathing mistatement of my "glowing self eulogy", you missed the example I gave of not allowing people to be as rude to individual users as they are towards GW. Not the first time you've chosen to debate points you've made up ratehr than the ones actually stated.
@JOHIRA: Maybe I am reading into your posts. I see that counterargument a lot. But don't forget: we've both been posting here for a while. I've read a lot of posts from you and others, not just the specific one we're talking about now.
As I predicted "have a better attitude and be polite" has been warped into "everyone must agree with me and we must all fall on our knees before GW." :deep breath: I love the smell of internets in the morning.
Pot meet kettle. You are doing the same thing just in the opposite direction. You are casting aspersions on everyone who doesn't agree with you.
"they need to justify themselves by claiming some kind of business acumen or insider knowledge. This is what I was referring to as baseless speculation. There are a few people around here who I happen to know run successful businesses related to wargaming or have access to actual figures and -- oddly enough -- they are NEVER the people who go on and on about how "GW is crazy not to do it exactly like I would." This is something more than coincidence, I reckon. "
this isn't an aspersion? Everyone who agrees with you is a reasonable person with experience. everyone who disagrees is a know nothing and using baseless speculation. There is more than just this one example. Maybe you better use some of that reading comprehension on your own writing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/18 21:13:04
chromedog wrote:I have a capacious memory for meaningless trivia.
Oh God - you too? It drives me nuts. I remember tiny rules details, but my father's Birthday? Nope...
Yep.
Like Oakley have a trademark on "Unobtanium" (came up in a movie trivia night recently) - but only for specific silicon rubber sunglass pieces and only in the US.
I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.
That is not dead which can eternal lie ...
... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
asmith wrote:Everyone who agrees with you is a reasonable person with experience. everyone who disagrees is a know nothing and using baseless speculation. There is more than just this one example. Maybe you better use some of that reading comprehension on your own writing.
Wow. Lol, you're the one who needs to go back and read what I wrote. Just start with the part that you yourself quoted: namely, that I take my cue from people with knowledge and experience, i.e., people whose opinions are actually worth paying attention to. I didn't decide that they're reasonable because they agree with me. It's the reverse. My opinion comes from listening to them.
Frazzled- JimBowen38 wrote:I have just read through the comments on the latest Dark Eldar and wow it never fails to amaze me the amount of negativity I see on Dakka so angry I had to post this rant.
Since when has the actual cost of a miniature been linked to its in points cost in the game? Oh and the sculpting critics here is an idea learn to sculpt or at the least wait till you actually see the miniatures before tearing into them photos are often misleading. And if the cost is really crippling your wallet here is another idea get another hobby.
As for the OP - I read the thread from p1 - As you can clearly see, not a negative place at all, just the occasional(and ofttimes prolific) posters that convey the appearance. I have been luking Dakka for a while now, and I agree that the 'haters gunna hate' type attitude is tiresome, but that is actually part of what makes things interesting here...
And I have made some great friends from Dakka - some on the net, some in the real world( I am having a game today with a Dakkanaut!!)
That is well worth it, IMO.
Oh, and if you decide to become a DCM - I guarantee you the threads there are fantastic!!!!
"Dakkanaut" not "Dakkaite" Only with Minatures, does size matter...
"Only the living collect a pension"Johannes VII
"If the ork codex and 5th were developed near the same time, any possible nerf will be pre-planned."-malfred
"I'd do it but the GW Website makes my eyes hurt. "Gwar
"That would be page 7 and a half. You find it by turning your rulebook on its side and slamming your head against it..." insaniak
MeanGreenStompa - The only chatbot I ever tried talking to insisted I take a stress pill and kept referring to me as Dave, despite my protestations.
insaniak "So, by 'serious question' you actually meant something entirely different? "
Frazzled[Mod] On Rule #1- No it literally means: be polite. If we wanted less work there would be no OT section.
Chowderhead - God no. If I said Pirates Honor, I would have had to kill him whether he won or lost.
Manchu wrote:@JOHIRA: Maybe I am reading into your posts. I see that counterargument a lot. But don't forget: we've both been posting here for a while. I've read a lot of posts from you and others, not just the specific one we're talking about now.
Well, I can't really help how others post. I also can't help what you read into my posts. But for what it's worth, if I have posted something so ambiguous that you think it attacks people for not having the same aesthetic sense I do, I do apologize.
I propose that the next time you feel like maybe you've been attacked for liking a model I dislike, why not send me a personal message to clarify things? After all, as a mod, you do have the right to push this forum in the tonal direction that the people running it want it to go in. I come from an environment where harsh criticism of things (as opposed to people) is a acceptable and even necessary way to push for improvement in people's work, so frankly I was a bit shocked and baffled by some of the things you've claimed about what you think I'm thinking. In my view of things I've been fairly mild in my criticism and extremely positive toward other Dakka users, especially in the modeling and painting forums. Dakka is after all the site I go to to interact with decent people. So rather than stewing or being angry, why not fire off a nice polite private message to clarify or show me where I've crossed a line?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/19 02:33:20
"White Lions: They're Better Than Cancer!" is not exactly a compelling marketing slogan. - AlexHolker
Manchu, I'm a bit surprised at you bro... Everyone has an opinion, expertise is not, and should not be required to say I like a mini or not... More importantly, I don't think it is fair to imply anyone who says something negative about a sculpt, paint job or price means they are BEING negative. Just as someone liking something does not mean they are BEING positive. Each is simply an opinion, and anyone taking that personally is assigning an emotion to it all by themselves.
I like the beasts. I like the two DE well enough, sculpts are great but I'm a little iffy on the design just on personal preference. I think they are too expensive given the amount you have to buy to make a feasible unit. Now if any of that upsets anyone, or makes them feel like I am bashing gw, being negative or anything more than a simple statement of my thoughts, it's on them. Its just a thought, not an order to others that they must agree.
Longwinded point, opinions on minis and prices should never upset anyone, unless they are preceded or followed by a 'youre an idiot if you disagree'. And even then, it's not the opinion, but the arse-holic intolerant superior tone that is the problem no?
Sometimes people just see things where there isnt any, it happens a lot online were some create a virtual image about someone else... In my experience here JOHIRA has always been a stellar fella and its always enjoyable to read and talk to and doesnt have any strange "bagage" like some do. So Yeah Mod Manchu I do believe your just imagining things.
Edit: Just wanted to add the following:
Manchu wrote:I just read what you posted in the other thread:
JOHIRA wrote:But see, I don't criticise models to fit you guys' needs. I do it to fit mine.
I don't understand this attitude. Why bother posting in a thread when you are not interested in adding to what is actually being discussed? Is your opinion truly of such burning, urgent importance to the Dakka community? Either you have a very high opinion of yourself and how immensely witty you are or you're just participating in the culture that OP here was complaining of. I assume it is the latter. For example, I can understand your critique that the fiend lacks motion and using the trollkin as an counterexample is entirely appropriate. But why the attitude? The implication is that people who do not share your aesthetic are inferior. This is not saying that "you are not allowed to not like things" or even "you are not allowed to explain your opinions.".
I think you jumped on JOHIRA neck for no reason at all... I mean what negative attitude did he express? I only read there "i comment and critique things based on my PERSONAL opinions, reality, wallet, aestetic preferences etc"... HOW can anyone express a personal opinion about something based on what others like? thats really the contrary of having a personal opinion.
Besides JOHIRA opinions are just as urgent as yours or anyone in dakka I dont get the vitrol Manchu.
Were did you read he considers others opinions inferior if they dont share his preferences? I only see you putting his personal opinion down.
Dont want to start arguments here just wanted to show that your post Manchu is making some really weird assumptions and conclusions and this makes me believe that you have already a virtual image created towards JOHIRA... as a old grumpy man ( like myself ) do yourself a favour for dakka sake and dont go there, you should know by now that virtual images are 99% false hehehe See that hot gal on facebook? SHes actually a smelly fat lad
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/02/19 12:59:16
We can reduce any point to meaninglessness. JOHIRA isn't ruining Dakka. The latest kvetching about three or four DE models isn't the only instance of overblown negativism. There is a pervasive attitude of bombastic criticism that I am amazed you guys are refusing to admit it exists. Maybe I see more of it as a mod, having to clean up the mess. The only other explanation is willful blindness. It isn't good enough to say "I don't like that" or even "it does not convey a believable sense of motion." Rather, posters have to say "ugly as a baboon's ass" or similar. It's literally incredible that people who were posting in the DE thread claim this kind of gak doesn't happen on Dakka. Even in this thread, "I disagree" isn't enough -- it had to be "GTFO" even after OP apologized for his comments. Well, OP had a pretty good point.
Manchu wrote:Rather, posters have to say "ugly as a baboon's ass" or similar.
I have never made that criticism, and I don't think any of my criticisms have been of that particular brand. Perhaps part of the problem is you are lumping all negative criticism into one basket. Personally, I don't care for comments like "ugly as a baboon's ass". I may be a bit playful sometimes in how I describe something, but I like to think if someone reads my criticisms they can quickly understand why I don't like something. Just writing something off as ugly isn't very useful as criticism in my opinion, since on the off chance that someone from GW is actually reading the comment, it won't tell them what to fix next time. But then I also think as long as the people who make those sorts of comments are following Dakka's rules, there's nothing wrong with them making those sorts of comments.
Manchu wrote:Maybe I see more of it as a mod, having to clean up the mess.
Now, I am going to be completely serious- even if I'm not ruining Dakka, if any comments I have ever made have created a "mess" that you have had to "clean up", please let me know immediately. Dakka is a website I enjoy a lot and it bothers me to think I may have created problems for the people running it without realizing it. But of course, if I have done wrong, I can't take responsibility without knowing what it is I've done. Send me a P.M.
Oh, and Thanks, NAVARRO. Praise from one of the patron saints of the board is most appreciated.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/02/19 15:05:11
"White Lions: They're Better Than Cancer!" is not exactly a compelling marketing slogan. - AlexHolker
+1 to Navarro on johira, I am on pretty often, he absolutely doesn't stick out in my mind as a troublemaker or even a boat-rocker at all.
@Manchu
I don't get it man... So are you implying not liking a mini makes you a negative person lol?
That leaves no room at all for the possibility that maybe a mini wasn't that good, or was too expensive in someones view... I dunno dude maybe you need to take a little mod break, and that isn't sarcasm or a shot, but I just find it sad that it sounds as if you have lost a bit of love for this place. Frankly I can understand your apparant frustration since your job requires you look at the worst this place has to offer every day. Still though, with no offense intended, I think your perception/interpretation needs a bit of recalibration.
Ps, the baboon arse comments sound rude, but they are a pretty entertaining yet accurate description og the color choices and proportions of that paint job. It is fantastically painted IMO though lol, but it still looks like the face is a baboon bum. And again, that ISN'T negativity, it's just a comparison! I didn't make a comment of this nature on the thread, but when I read it, I thought hey now it does kinda have that swollen red coloring and had a laugh about it. Did it change my mind that it was extremely well painted? Not at all! Probably because I didn't automatically perceive the comment as a negative...
Writing on an iPad = lots of edits sorry lol
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/02/19 16:23:10
See mate this is what I dont get... your assumming again and posting again... based on your prespective he actually did something as a user that could have contributed to hipotetical negativism on dakka... I need to tell you this as a net buddy to another... since you consider yourself a old fella that is more concentrated on the positive sides of things ( as you posted earlier) why didn't you took this chance and listen to what some of us are saying and maybe put in prespective your opinion towards him?... I mean I rather see here people more vociferal and picky towars a miniature price than you taking another jab at user that IMHO contributes in a positive way to dakka.
Manchu wrote: The latest kvetching about three or four DE models isn't the only instance of overblown negativism. There is a pervasive attitude of bombastic criticism that I am amazed you guys are refusing to admit it exists. Maybe I see more of it as a mod, having to clean up the mess. The only other explanation is willful blindness. It isn't good enough to say "I don't like that" or even "it does not convey a believable sense of motion." Rather, posters have to say "ugly as a baboon's ass" or similar. It's literally incredible that people who were posting in the DE thread claim this kind of gak doesn't happen on Dakka. Even in this thread, "I disagree" isn't enough -- it had to be "GTFO" even after OP apologized for his comments. Well, OP had a pretty good pointc ..
I read the past topic and I see a good example of dakka best.... some people dislike it and say they dont like... others say they dont like and actually justify why( these are the most usefull and productive posts for me personally) some try to be funny with their opinions, others love the minis, others want to buy them and dont get why people dont like them... and all SO diferent people with diferent behaviours seem to be getting along in a chat... thats what I call a diverse topic! A bit of everything there.
I need to ask this now do you consider my opinion on that topic negative? I mean I kind of breaked down the sculpts the way I see them and tried to justify my preferences... would a rather "i dont like" be more positive?
Please dont try to glue yourself to the OP point because if there was any point on this thread it was formulated in a very poor way to say the least.
I think that your aiming at wrong target and that this increment of complains towards GW is maybe because GW has been raising prices continuously and under a week we see fantasy books a lot more expensive and decent yet not stellar new sculpts at a very harsh price..
Either way the second incarnation of dakka forums ( I was a user of first forum but deleted my account and opened a new one on V2) is sooooooooooooooo much friendlier/ posititve / usefull, fast etc that I think your image of this forum is a bit off. As a mod its a bit sad
Ugh for gods sake he was merely saying that people who think they are being smart with witty criticism are actually being cynical and repetitive. In other words just saying things like "that sucks" and thinking they're being original. Some of you guys seem to feel persecuted because Manchu is a mod but as he and the others have pointed out they are only speaking as a mod when in red. Can we please take down the "Let's fight the power" rhetoric?
IMHO, the people in Dakka , from Admin to the veterans, the people have been friendly and overall civil and professional in their postings.
I enjoy coming to this site. I've been painting and modeling longer than most people that have been alive that make postings to this site, but I have learned so much from those who have given their viewpoints and their ideas to help me and others expand their skills in playing or gaming. I am not embarrassed one bit from learning new modeling techniques, gaming skills, or getting beaten in a game from a teenager. If you can learn from others then you will not stagnate in your mindset.
This is why Dakka Dakka is one of the Premier sites to go to for this hobby that some of us are passionately involved in.
Everyone has an opinion and sometimes we agree to disagree, but at least we can express our postings in a manner that is civil enough to it does not hurt others in the process.
I feel that overall the people in Dakka Dakka have done that.
Adam's Motto: Paint, Create, Play, but above all, have fun. -and for something silly below-
"We are the Ultramodrines, And We Shall Fear No Trolls. bear this USR with pride".
Also, how does one apply to be a member of the Ultramodrines? Are harsh trials involved, ones that would test my faith as a wargamer and resolve as a geek?
You must recite every rule of Dakka Dakka. BACKWARDS.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ugh for gods sake he was merely saying that people who think they are being smart with witty criticism are actually being cynical and repetitive.
Wow, that's the first paraphrasing of Manchu's point that wasn't a complete strawman.
I agree with him that people tend toward hyperbole, specifically OTT hate toward lots of GW related things. I don't think the guy ever said that you shouldn't be able to state your feelings about models and whatnot though, whether good or bad. It was his opinion that the OP has a point. Given the weirdness in this thread I'm inclined to agree with him once again.
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Some of you guys seem to feel persecuted because Manchu is a mod . Can we please take down the "Let's fight the power" rhetoric?
Man with all due respect your conclusions are so off that I dont feel inclined to argument with you... and just want to say... please read again with a fresh pair of eyes.
Dont try to turn a pals chat into a stupid pointless war.
@Adam LongWalker glad you feel like that, I do share your feelings on this and its nice to see new people feeling at home.
Generally speaking I do think some people are confusing diverse opinions, sarcasm, honest opinions with no sugar coating, a shot at humour, immaturity, and a lot of common human behaviour with just plain and simple negativism... I dont feel inclined to share this point of view because I always defend that a diverse forum is a rich one.
Do some people get out of line sometimes? Sure they do and ALL mods do a stellar job... period!
KingCracker wrote: Youd be surprised that not everyone that plays isnt super rich and pisses money in the toilet every morning.
I'm Ricky Bobby, when I wake up in the morning I piss excellence!
In all seriousness, I wouldn't care if GW priced core stuff less than special and rare items as long as the price increase is justified. For example, if I get a unit of skelletons, I would expect that the skelletons would look more "normal", then when I buy a unit of grave guard the extra $3-5 I pay should be evident in the model. Moving to the DEldar, the warriors look cool. The incubi look cooler and are a different material so I would expect to pay more. The raider looks cool, but the ravager looks cooler (and an additional weapon sprue). If I was paying $30 for a tactical squad and they renamed the unit and said, congrats now they are elites and then said pay an extra $10 for it because they were elite, then I'd be ticked off. So far, it looks like GW gives you something for that extra couple of bucks you spend.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 15:45:46
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ugh for gods sake he was merely saying that people who think they are being smart with witty criticism are actually being cynical and repetitive. In other words just saying things like "that sucks" and thinking they're being original. Some of you guys seem to feel persecuted because Manchu is a mod but as he and the others have pointed out they are only speaking as a mod when in red. Can we please take down the "Let's fight the power" rhetoric?
I can only assume this was directed at Johira, Navarro and I given the timing of your post? If so, thank you for re-enforcing our point that some people don't actually listen, they just - Step 1 - check to see if you wrote something they agree with or not, and then on to step 2, if it contains anything resembling a criticism call them negative and aggressive and get on a soap box.
No one is looking to 'fight the power'. There is no rhetoric. We all 3 of us love Dakka and if I may be so bold, participate and contribute in positive ways where we can. Nothing any of us said was aimed towards conflict, it was all towards resolution. And again, as was my original point, anyone who takes the message otherwise bears a degree of responsibility for twisting and misinterpreting well intentioned words. In the end, what is truly negative? Giving non-absolute and honest points of view on a sculpt or pricepoint, or people who make conflict out of conversation? I know which one bugs me more...
"Chibihawk", "Pumbagor", and "Goldswords" aren't 'contributing in a positive way'.
It's a perfect example of 'attempts at being "smart" with witty criticism'.
More commonly, it's known as "rhetoric". It's the kind of thing that Glenn Beck would do to spin something he doesn't like into a fearful concept done to incite his listeners/viewers into hating it.
Kanluwen wrote:"Chibihawk", "Pumbagor", and "Goldswords" aren't 'contributing in a positive way'.
It's a perfect example of 'attempts at being "smart" with witty criticism'.
More commonly, it's known as "rhetoric". It's the kind of thing that Glenn Beck would do to spin something he doesn't like into a fearful concept done to incite his listeners/viewers into hating it.
Robot Girlyman. Ultrasmurf. Twilight Marines. Emo Marines. DKoK are Nazis and the term Mary Sue get funnier and witty-er everytime.
We've come to the point where sides are developing and instead of actually finding the common ground in each other's posts we're looking for -- straining to find, it seems -- the points of disagreement. I think this is what MonsterRain referred to as strawmen in this case. Tom, you feel like your points are being twisted around because they haven't been thoroughly understood and to be honest that's exactly how I feel about your, JOHIRA's, and Navarro's responses to my posts. I don't think the emerging "sides" really stand that far apart.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/20 16:40:34
Nor do I bud. The only thing I want to be clear about was that at no point was anything I said meant as an attack on you or anyone else frankly. Just would prefer it if everyone could just enjoy the forum, and find it a shame when nothing more than misinterpretation sours people who have been great contributors.
In the end it's simply just like life right? Different people, different senses of humor, different ways of communicating. I think though since that it is the internet, we have to be even more aware of how easy it is to misinterpret things here than out there. And likewise how much harder it is to resolve an issue once it starts. Afterall, you can't see a sincere look, or a well meaning smile and chuckle along with 'chibihawk'.
Most important to note, most of the few conflicts I've had on this forum have been a direct result of my own inability to properly interpret the meaning behind the words and my jumping to argue because someone disagreed. I'm no Saint lol, but I'm working on it. There is def a learning curve though!
The Dreadnote wrote:Am I the only one that finds the idea of getting angry about people getting angry hilarious?
yep. My brother gets annoyed when he sees people getting annoyed. I point this out and laugh, annoying him further. It's like this thread. If you get negative about other people being neative, you're:
trollin'.
hatin'.
flamin'.
a hypocrit.
or any combination of the above. Personally, I think you're a hypocrit, and need to either accept it and calm down or accept it and stop.
and people will either attempt to calm you down, antagonise the situation by flaming/trolling/hating back, or post comments like this.
DS:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Plotr06#+D+++A++++/eWD251R+++T(Ot)DM+ JB: I like the concept of a free Shrike roaming through the treetops of the jungle. I'm not sure that I like the idea of a real Shrike sitting on my couch eating my Skittles. corpsesarefun: Thank god I missed be nice to shrike day. greenskin lynn: because of all the skittles and soda, you basically live off sugar water, like some sort of freakish human-hummingbird hybrid.
Agreed. This is, after all, why there are no Dakka rules against "being negative" -- not only are these comments a matter of opinion and totally on-topic for this forum but there is also a question of interpretation. In the meantime, people are going to get all Comic Book Guy from time to time. "Worst Mini Ever."
Manchu wrote:-Tom, you feel like your points are being twisted around because they haven't been thoroughly understood and to be honest that's exactly how I feel about your, JOHIRA's, and Navarro's responses to my posts. I don't think the emerging "sides" really stand that far apart.
Uff glad you think that way... I believe theres no sides, fight or power in our chat to begin with... thats just concepts introduced by user who I think its reading things that dont exist here.
I only get a bit worried when someone I admire IMO gets frustated or disapointed about something...
I worry about you getting the feeling dakka is negative and I feel bad for johira since hes a nice fella and didnt deserved the stamp of bad boy.
I just hope you get back to see dakka as a diverse nice place with all kinds of people and dont get offtrack by thinking its a negative forum... or even think for a moment that my posts are anything but my poor attempts to help out
In your scathing mistatement of my "glowing self eulogy", you missed the example I gave of not allowing people to be as rude to individual users as they are towards 
