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davidson wrote:The new rules for power armored greyknights remind me alot of noise marines with sonic blasters.

But, the noise marines are better in most respects. A better special weapon, the ability to do heavy 3 rather than just assault 2, fearless (good and bad), a champion with powerfist/ good amount of wargear options, and each marine has 2 attacks with out charging(sonic blaster, bolt pistol, ccw).

You do not see anyone using mass amounts of noise marines, and you won't see lots of power armored greyknights for the same reasons.

I also thought of Emperor's Children when I saw the rules! however, there are differences.

Noise marines have to buy each sonic blaster (a crap rule IMO), so they get quite expensive. I think the math of having S5 assault 2 and S4 Heavy 3 (stationary sonic blasters) must add up to being about the same, too. However, the psycannon is quite better than the Blastmaster, and cheaper.

Noise Marines will have more attacks in CC, but depending on what they fight, armor will neutralize the extra hits. Not an issue with GK. There's also the squad psyker power, which is a big factor.

So oddly enough, the PAGK squad feels a bit like a more general-purpose, take-all comers unit of noise marines, plus force weapons and a psyker. But it packs more goodies in a similar cost.

P.S - I quite like noise marines, actually. Blasting a doom siren before an I 5 charge is quite exhilarating, and in 2k+ games you'd be surprised at how many enemies ignore them and obsesses over plagues and zerkers, leaving them free to do their death metal deeds.

It doesn't suck, it's actually not a bad tactic

davidson wrote:The new rules for power armored greyknights remind me alot of noise marines with sonic blasters.

But, the noise marines are better in most respects.

A fair comparison except GKSS are a proper 5ed unit and outclass them.

"A better special weapon" -- GKSS have a better selection of heavy in my opinion. Option of 2 psycannons at 20 vs no more then one blastmaster for 40 whopping points.

"the ability to do heavy 3 rather than just assault 2," I'd take S5 A2 over S4 H3/A2. Especially considering the cost of the sonic blaster.

"fearless (good and bad)." For the most part ATSKNF at ld9 is better for a more shooty oriented unit imo but its a fair point that fearless has its good also.

"a champion with powerfist/ good amount of wargear options" Any GKSS can take a thunderhammer for a mere 10 points -- including the base 2 attack justicar that can also mastercraft his for 5 points. Plus the noise champ is 15 extra points! Justicar is free. I will concede the Doom Siren is a cool upgrade but it costs quite a bit considering champ cost.

"and each marine has 2 attacks with out charging(sonic blaster, bolt pistol, ccw)." Only better if facing low armor units (assuming no hammerhand GKSS kills 1/4 MEq per model w/o charging, Noisemarine kills 1/6 MEq). You didn't mention I5, which is a pretty handy boost also, but also didn't take hammerhand into account either.

"You do not see anyone using mass amounts of noise marines, and you won't see lots of power armored greyknights for the same reasons."
I think that's pretty bad string of logic and conclusion. You skip over all the other stuff GKSS get that noise marines do not (psychout grenades, deepstrike, hammerhand, warp quake, the aegis). Also GKSS are not competing with plaguemarines or bezerkers (who are quite a bit more points efficient compared to noisemarines), and while there are some very tempting alternates in GK troop section, they have their flaws and/or HQ reqs as well.

But the real decider here as far as whick unit will be popular is independent of rules -- proper noise marine bits are metal and expensive and aren't even on a store shelf. GKSS have a shiney new plastic kit that has all the options you'd want to take (could be better but its still quite packed with goodies).

There is definitely some good theoretical discussion going on in here. And the points that can be made on the theory side are valid. But it was really helpful for me to get a game in against my own IG list.

I had somnicide come by on his way home from work, and I ran a foot strike squad list with paladins backed up by three psyflemans. It was very useful to get that humbling reminder that if you aren't cavalry, and you don't have a storm shield, then you have no business being unmounted within 12" of a wall of special weapon loaded chimeras. I took the near-tabling very poorly at first, but it was useful to know that grey knights aren't going to be able to re-invent 40k. The same basic tenets apply to them as to all marines in terms of competitive play.

I know that strike squad advocates didn't say "run them on foot it'll be cool" but just for some of the followers of this thread, unless you are an interceptor squad, or a purgation squad/purifier mini-dev squad with 4 psycannons... A transport vehicle is damn near required for competitive play.

Looking at the strike squad under that scrutiny, they are still quite good at doing the job that most marines ask of their troops.

For only ten points more than a 5x grey hunter unit in an assault cannon razorback, you can get this unit.

5x strike squad 1x psycannon rhino.

The two units are quite close in the quality of what they deliver. If the grey hunter razorback moves or remains stationary, it can shoot 4 strength 6 shots to 24". If the grey knight rhino moves it gets two strength 7 shots but if it stays still it gets 4. Also please factor in fortitude, which is at least as useful as you have all been thinking, from my three game experiences...

4 of the 5 grey knights in that little unit have power weapons, and they have the ability to quite easily become strength 5. I feel those two combine to be at least as useful as counter-attack and a free flamer.

And lastly, you get warp quake. It won't come up very often at all, but when it does, if you built your army around shooting, then boy are deep strike armies going to be pissed.

Just like with grey hunters, you can load up the strike squad all day with more and more goodies, trinkets, gee-gaws etc. But the 160 point unit I just outlined I think is as good if not better than the VERY popular grey hunter razorback package that I see ad infinitum at tourneys.

And once you all start seeing the psyfleman dreadnought in action and realize that it yields as much anti-tank as a long fang unit, and that fortitude makes it measurably more difficult to silence than a regular shooty vehicle... then a vehicle based gunline, where warp quake would be excellent defense, starts to emerge.

I think my biggest irritation so far with the book is that outside of the inquisitors, you can't really get a character that can easily get tucked away into a transport. You've got terminator armor librarians and grand masters, and castellan crowe who would need to steal someone else's transport in order to move freely.

Edit: Reading fail....

Pyriel- wrote:Those facts above enough for you?

PLEASE DON'T BLOCK QUOTE AN ENORMOUS POST JUST TO APPEND A ONE LINE REPLY WHICH ADDS NOTHING TO THE THREAD. IT'S A WASTE OF SPACE AND INTERRUPTS THE THREAD FOR EVERYONE READING.

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My eyes bled when i read that

rovian wrote:@ shep

Scout-shunting dreadknights... IDing TWC and laughing off missiles...

If you are going to throw a foil at grey knights... Don't try to do it with a space wolf army.


But twc can win and you can get melat ed or not get the charge cause their behind a rhino And have storm shields and my space wolves have 14 lascannons zap zap

And the DK moves like JI with the teleporter... and the rhino might blow up... and I might roll all 6's when rolling to hit, to wound and when to save. Your point is? The Dreadknight STILL laughs off the two most common "power" units in the SW Codex, namely TWC and Long Fang spam. I don't know about you, but I usually don't see 14 lascannons in a SW list...

I fell for the trolling the first time....

But you fell for it this time Walrus.

I'm fairly sure this guy isn't being serious. The Octuple dakka emote mid-sentence kinda tipped me off

Shep wrote:I fell for the trolling the first time....

But you fell for it this time Walrus.

I'm fairly sure this guy isn't being serious. The Octuple dakka emote mid-sentence kinda tipped me off

Meh, guess I'm to guillible. That's what I get for being a smartypants >.<

Well mine does but I was making a subtle prod at OP as he was all like well now i have this and this and this and this
heheheheh and octuple emote was to lessen the tension before we talked about coffe for a page but I respect you both just saying TWC can take a couple with stormshields and such and shep is fairly right the 14 cannons was recounted its actually 11 and 13 missile launcher with priests and two thunder lords

@Shep

I disagree w/your assertion that PAGK don't belong on foot w/out transports. I managed to make a fair run (only fair based on several mistakes on both our parts) at a 8 Venom, 3 Ravager, 1 Raider w/some CC support list w/an all foot GK list. It's how you build the list though. I think a pretty much pure PAGK foot list supported by 2-3 AC Dreads are going to be nasty. YMMV

To be honest Grey knight strike force is now one of the most cost effective units in the game right underneath Grey hunter packs. To say that they suck because they have 1 attack is 100% wrong,.

I wouldn't say they suck, but they're not particularly good.

The problem is that even though they're cost effective, they're not effective in the right places (unlike Grey Hunters).

Posting this in two threads to get as many suggestions (or corrections) as possible in this little time so sorry for double post:

Am going to have a game in an hour and will do a batrep of it to show you.
Its GKs vs SM.

So if you have any particular wishes of what to try out in the game you have one hour to affect my build choice.

1500 points.

GK:
Librarian - 175p
Quickening
Shrouding
Might of titan
that flame template power I dont remember its name
summoningl

SSGK - 265p
2 Psycannons
Rhino

SSGK - 265p
2 Psycannons
Rhino

Purifyers - 305p
2 incinerators
10 Halbeards
Rhino

Techmarine - 89p
3 servo skulls

Rifleman dreadnought - 135p

Rifleman dreadnought - 135p

Rifleman dreadnought - 135p

1504p




Salamanders:

Vulkan

10 SS/TH terminators

2 speedeers MM/HF

1 speeder MM/HF

1 Attackbike MM

Tac squad 230
ML, combimelta, meltagun
Pod, locator beacon

Tac squad 230
ML, combimelta, meltagun
Pod, locator beacon

Tac squad 225
ML, combiflamer, flamer
Pod, locator beacon

1505p

So if you want me to add somethingor correct a point cost etc last second let me know and I´ll think about it.
I´ll make a second batrep using something else tomorrow. You can affect builds I and my friend will use.
The options are:
GK
SW
SM
Infantry heavy orks (only bikes boys of all kinds and choppers available)


If anyone out there really want to see a batrep on GK vs infantry orks just throw in some build suggestions as I think orks are real underdogs. Lets build a GK crushing infantry ork army and I´ll consider using it vs GK tomorrow (1850p limit).

The libby power is called Warp Rift.

You bought 2 extra Halberds for your Purifiers, as the incinerators take both weapons.

Techmarines cost 90 points now instead of 80.

Servo skulls don't help your list at all, btw. I'm not sure if it was supposed to be list tailoring against his pods/DS, but from what I have read about them in the actual codex, they do not affect enemy deep striking, only your own deep striking and blasts and your opponents infiltrating and scout moves (cannot setup up infiltrators within 12" and cannot scout move withing 12" of them (meaning they can't even pass them). They are destroyed if any enemy unit moves to within 6" of them.


Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there for you.


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Oh, yeah, it would help summoning I guess.

Ah, thanks.



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Done.
Most fun I had during a game of 40k for a long time.

Fafnir wrote:I wouldn't say they suck, but they're not particularly good.

The problem is that even though they're cost effective, they're not effective in the right places (unlike Grey Hunters).

What exactly do you think theyre not effective at?

Mannahnin wrote:

Grundz wrote:

Shep wrote:

Scout-shunting dreadknights... IDing TWC and laughing off missiles...

If you are going to throw a foil at grey knights... Don't try to do it with a space wolf army.

first, replying to people that hop into these threads to troll because dakka moderation is lacking is a losing effort.

You want us to police for people writing bad tactical advice? Please don't be silly.

It took Shep four sentence fragments to respond to that argument, to the edification of onlookers. If a post (especially one made sincerely, which can be difficult to judge) offers bad advice, that should always be seen as a springboard for a better/educational response. The solution to bad advice is good advice. Not shutting down the bad advice. Especially when what constitutes good or bad advice can vary a bit depending on one's local play environment.

qft

I agree completely - don't look at bad advice as a negative - use it as a catalyst to spur intelligent analysis of the bad advice and alternative, good advice.

The fellow (therion?) that is naysaying everything is clearly ignorant as to how GK really work, but thinks he knows. Hell, they are overpriced silver marines, right? Right??Should he be banned? To the contrary, his posts give the experienced GK players the ability to point out the flaws in his argument and give real advice relevent to the codex.

I will be foot slogging, as I have all through 5th. The difference will be me winning the vast majority of my games instead of half.

I leafed through my BA codex and added up that upgrading a normal tac marine with a Power Weapon and a Storm bolter came out to a 34 point model. Add in extremely useful psychic powers and that those power weapons are force weapons, and there is little ground to say that they suck. They may not be the style of play you like, but they are an extreme bargain for their points.

I have been running foot slogging well everything since 5th because I dont want to buy the transport models. I have to say foot lists arent nearly as bad as everyone says they are anyway. Usually people will come to you assuming they can drive circles around you, if you need to go get their object well thats what scout/teleporters/lr/stormraven is for. Foot lists get cover easier and if played smartly can generally only be shot by one or two of the opposing players units. I have found in an army with already expensive models omitting the nice but expensive transports allows for another entire squad.

Inigo Montoya wrote:

Mannahnin wrote: The solution to bad advice is good advice. Not shutting down the bad advice. Especially when what constitutes good or bad advice can vary a bit depending on one's local play environment.

qft

I agree completely - don't look at bad advice as a negative - use it as a catalyst to spur intelligent analysis of the bad advice and alternative, good advice.

The fellow (therion?) that is naysaying everything is clearly ignorant as to how GK really work, but thinks he knows. Hell, they are overpriced silver marines, right? Right??Should he be banned? To the contrary, his posts give the experienced GK players the ability to point out the flaws in his argument and give real advice relevent to the codex.

I will be foot slogging, as I have all through 5th. The difference will be me winning the vast majority of my games instead of half.

Thanks! I don't think it's Therion you're thinking of, though. He thinks GK are good. Though he does play in an extremely optimized and competitive area, which means his views on units and builds are a little different and coming from a slightly different context than many of ours.

Zonder wrote:I have been running foot slogging well everything since 5th because I dont want to buy the transport models. I have to say foot lists arent nearly as bad as everyone says they are anyway. Usually people will come to you assuming they can drive circles around you, if you need to go get their object well thats what scout/teleporters/lr/stormraven is for. Foot lists get cover easier and if played smartly can generally only be shot by one or two of the opposing players units. I have found in an army with already expensive models omitting the nice but expensive transports allows for another entire squad.

Try not to play missile spam space wolves. They can give foot slogging lists a really good shellacking. Unless they are all terminators that is.

rovian wrote:@ shep

Scout-shunting dreadknights... IDing TWC and laughing off missiles...

If you are going to throw a foil at grey knights... Don't try to do it with a space wolf army.


But twc can win and you can get melat ed or not get the charge cause their behind a rhino And have storm shields and my space wolves have 14 lascannons zap zap

You're going to shoot a melta at it and... maybe do 1 wound? The 30" shunt can take it clear of the Rhino when you combine it with a 6" move followed by a 6" charge. 14 Lascannons is a ton of them, but you don't see that often at all because it costs a veritable mountain of points. Not to mention there will probably be 2-3 Dreadknights going for the shunt/charge on turn 1 if it is going to happen at all.

Caffran9 wrote:

But twc can win and you can get melat ed or not get the charge cause their behind a rhino And have storm shields and my space wolves have 14 lascannons zap zap

You're going to shoot a melta at it and... maybe do 1 wound? The 30" shunt can take it clear of the Rhino when you combine it with a 6" move followed by a 6" charge.

No it can't. The Scout move can't come within 12" of an enemy model. So the Shunt move gets you 12.1" away, and then your move + assault still doesn't clear or even reach the rhino. If you move as Jump Infantry you can reach the Rhino, but not clear it. As long as the opponent is what, 4"(?) behind their Rhinos, you can't assault them turn 1.

Caffran9 wrote:14 Lascannons is a ton of them, but you don't see that often at all because it costs a veritable mountain of points. Not to mention there will probably be 2-3 Dreadknights going for the shunt/charge on turn 1 if it is going to happen at all.

Agreed about the lascannons.

Trygons have six wounds.

Bring your psychic hood....maybe you'll get lucky and stop half of my psychic powers...you know everything I have on the board casts them right? Oh, you brought a libby to hood my stuff? Lets see if the points you spent get you any psychic powers of your own. Probably not, considering MY psychic hood and Aegis. You see....Grey Knights RULE the psychic phase in this game. They're designed that way. Unfortunatly, you cannot hood my psybolts, psycannon, power weapons, shunts and all the other little toys that I've got.

With runes of warding you'll roll 10.5 with 3 dice on average.
This means that you shouldn't count too much on the GK psychic phase.
Rolling 12 or higher (warp attack) means that 1W models are gone.

As other people have said, GKSS troops 'suck' because any one component they bring to the table can be duplicated for fewer points or with better results.

If you want scoring units hiding in a vehicle, then henchmen with coteaz is better.

If you want cc that is scoring, then both crowe'd purfiers and GKT units and draigo'd paladins offer better cc point for point, plus a bunch of the coteaz henchmen units can also be better in many respects.

If you want shooting that is scoring, then crowe'd purfiers get 2 pcannons out of a rhino hatch for cheaper, and certian henchmen builds provide either more range or the melta special rule instead of just more pcannons. Also, draigo'd paladins are not terrible with shooting if you were going to be moving both the paladins and the GKSS, thanks to relentless.

If you dont care about scoring, then the rest of the FOC is available, meaning there is no point for GKSS outside of their unique psychic power and the fact that you still need 2 troops.

So yeah, GKSS suck compared to everything else you 'could' be doing if you specialized. Such is the fate of jacks of all trades, is that you are master of none. In addition, the GK dont really get force multipliers outside of the librarian, and the libbys force multipliers can benefit anyone, so again not a selling point of GKSS.

The one thing, IMHO, that makes GKSS a 'competetive' choice when ONLY taken on their own merit, is cheap bodies with deepstrike and s5 stormbolters. Take a squad of 10, 2 pcannons and stormbolters with psybolters, maybe a daemonhammer. Deepstrike with the aid of servoskulls to get side shots on an av10 vehicle, or rear if really lucky.

Consider the psy rifleman shooting at a chimera. 8 shots, with 8/9ths to hit and 1/3rd to pen av12, comes to ~1.19 pens. Now just 5 GKSS deepstriking with the aid of 3 servoskulls and psybolters costs the same points, and gets 1.11 pens. Add the extra 5 guys with 2 pcannons, and now your troopsquad is better than 2 psy rifleman and cheaper, though needing to deepstrike for side shots.

In this limited capacity, the GKSS is the best unit in the book for the job, as they are the cheapest. Thanks to combat squads, and the fact that you can also get them a rhino for 40 points, you add a lot of flexibility for games when you dont want to deepstrike.

Comparing GKSS to a henchman army is comparing a MEQ army to a GEQ army. They are so vastly different that it's comparing apples to oranges, which becomes a matter of subjective opinion rather than objective fact.

The debate over GKSS is really a debate over HQ. There are only 2 spots open and 6 fierce contenders that top my list, 4 of which are huge force multipliers.

#1 Cortez=GEQ army or hybrid of a GEQ army. As previously states comparing a GeQ army to a MeQ army is comparing 2 armies that are so vastly different that it's comparing apples to oranges, which becomes a matter of subjective opinion rather than objective fact. I will however say this, in a hybrid list that combines GeQ with MeQ Cortez takes a HQ slot away from force multiplication significantly weakening the MeQ half of the army.

#2 Draigo=Paladins as troops + Grand strategy. The best part of grand strategy is the ability to give D3 units rerolls to wound effectively turning I6 halberds into I6 lightning claws. Draigo is awesome, but the #1 problem with Draigo is is not as good as a regular Grandmaster because of his sub par equipment. That leads me to the regular grandmaster.

#3 Regular Grandmaster=Grand strategy + rad grenades+ servo skulls. The problem with Draigo is he doesn't have rad grenades or servo skulls, and rad grenades are just plain rude. Hammerhand + Rad grenades means a unit with I6 halberds joined by a regular grandmaster joins is going to wound MEQ or other T4 opponents on a 2+, and T4 MC on a 4+ with rerolls to wound from grand strategy. The servo skulls are also nice, and some might argue that the psychotropic grenades are even better than rad grenades. The regular grandmaster really makes regular troop terminators shine. It's really hard to compare Draigo to a regular grandmaster because it's comparing very expensive paladins to regular GK terninators bolstered by rad grenades for a deathstar.

#4 Castillian Crowe=Russel Crowe, or at least the drunken and belligerent south park version of Russel Crowe so from now on I'm just going to call him Russel Crowe. Purifiers are absolutely awesome, and spamming them for troops is great. The only problem with Russel Crowe is he's a drunken belligerent bastard who does nothing for force multiplication as Titan's Herald is completely wasted on him.

#5 Brotherhood Champion=Chaplain. So far Titan's Herald is the only ability I have seen in the GK codex that allows rerolls to hit. Toss him into Draigo's reroll to wound Paladins or a Grandmasters Reroll to wound + Rad grenade terminators and it's a real no brainer. Rerolls to hit and wound with I6 Halberds is going to be the end result.

#6 The Librarian: Where do I start? He would combine well with Draigo, a Grandmaster, or a brotherhood champion depending where you want rerolls and if it's a paladin army. Without a Librarian the army has no psychic hood. He can give a unit I10, which in the case of a decked out terminator or paladin unit we're talking about 30 to 40 attacks- the hammers. The hammers might not even be necessary as the librarian can turn the entire units attacks into S5 chainfists with titan's might, S6 if combined with hammerhand. He also has the stealth bubble. The quickining + might of titan + hammerhand = I10 S6 attacks which can then be given rerolls to hit from a brotherhood champion or rerolls to wound from Draigo/Grandmaster.

Final Verdict=Cortez and Russel Crowe have huge unwritten costs in the loss of potential force multipliers. They are both still very good HQ choices, and solid army builds can be built around them, but army builds without either of them using the double force multiplier strategy are also good solid army builds that will happen to include dun dun dun....GKSS.

I think that the Grand masters ability only lets you reroll 1s when you wond not all failed wounds.

rogersss wrote:I think that the Grand masters ability only lets you reroll 1s when you wond not all failed wounds.

Meh think you might be right the print quality on online book I am reading is not good, however hammerhand + Rad grenades=wounding T4 on a 2+