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...b/c thats what everyone seems to be saying.

Best infantry shooty weapon in the game. (especially when you add psybolts) Check.
Best Close Combat Weapon in the game. (WITH the added bonus of Daemonbane) Check.
Marine Stats. Check.
ATSKNF. Check.


Hmmmm.....


10xMarine w/Melta, Multi-Melta, Powerfist SGT w/combi-Melta, Rhino w/EA (its not fortitude but, hey.)
270pts

10xGrey Knight w/2xPsycannon, Psybolts, Rhino
275pts

Hmmmmm....

How again do Strike Squads suck?

"Purifiers are better and not much more expensive." (40-70 or so more points depending on loadout than the above unit)

That's true but you have to waste an HQ slot and 150pts for a less than stellar character. An extra attack with one of the games best weapons. Wow, they're better, REALLY? Amazing discovery that.

...........................................................

The fact is that Strike Squads indeed do NOT suck. You've got 10 basic marines in a full squad, each one armed with a force weapon with Str 4 or 5 CC attacks. Also, armed with storm bolters at Str 4 or 5. Psycannons as a special weapon and its obvious how devestating THOSE can be...well worth 10pts apeice.

How does this unit "Suck"? One could easily make an army based off of these guys...and a good one too. Maybe purifiers are better, maybe Jokaero will break the game. (they're essentially Guard heavy weapon teams, and we all know how broken those are right? )

"They cannot fight a whole genestealer brood in CC." -duh.
"They don't have Meltaguns." -yea so?
"They've only got one attack apeice." -Obvious much?

These are not reasons that a unit would suck. They're obvious observations. None of which make a unit suck. Especially a unit that is based and is comparable point cost to your basic marine.

I dunno, just an observation.

Who's been saying they suck? All I hear is how the new GK codex is way too OP.

I think a PAGK based army will be the most competitive GK army (not thinking about henchmen here).

The one attack per model does suck, on marines. Which is why tactical squads suck in CC. Arm all those guys with force weapons... and you start to look scary. The base cost of 20 pts for a Force weapon, storm bolter armed marine compared to the 15-16 points for the basic bolter marine with a normal CC weapon.

Then you get into fact that GK strike squads have hammerhand, which is going to be used more than the FW power honestly, and have access to warp quake, which is a nice bonus. The cheap per model upgrade of +1 to bolter strength is amazing as well. Psycannons are amazingly flexible, they either are auto cannons with half range and assault rules and rending, or +1 strength assault cannons. You get 2 if you want them, in combat squadable units. They also get pykeout grenades for fun.

Regular marines get free special and heavy weapons, but only if you buy all 10.

Regular rhinos cost less, but only have repair

GK rhinos get all of what the regular rhino gets, but also gets fortitude, and only costs 5 points more base. It can also take an upgrade that lets a librarian teleport it...

yeah, I personally think that GK strike squads are just fine, in fact they are so much better than the old books version, they actually could have justified the old price (which is 150 for the first 5, 25 for each additional).

Best infantry shooty weapon in the game. (especially when you add psybolts) Check.

24" range is bad. It's very bad. Everyone outshoots them because of that range. GK (lists with actual GKs) can't force anyone to come to them because they don't have the necessary firepower and if they advance full speed they skip one shooting phase altogether. Sure you can hide them inside a Razorback all game long but then you'd just want more Razorbacks and cheaper Marines with meltaguns in there, not force weapon guys with a psycannon doing nothing. The only use of Strike Squads that I can see is Warp Quake, but 110 points for that is a bit much still when you can get 3 henchmen with special weapons for 30+ points.

Best Close Combat Weapon in the game. (WITH the added bonus of Daemonbane) Check.

Daemonbane is a gimmick. You'll probably get something out of it once every 20 games. Force weapons are cool, but you're purposefully forgetting the fact they can't activate the force weapons the same turn they use hammerhand, and that they have only one measly attack, and they're the ones who will be charged, not the other way around. What are power weapons for anyway? Fighting one very specific type of Blood Angels? People are saying GK are great because they have so many special abilities. Well, 98% of those abilities are either completely useless or useful in very rare circumstances. Would be cool if there was an option to 'not take' something and get a discount for it.

Marine Stats. Check.
ATSKNF. Check. How again do Strike Squads suck?

Awesomesauce. Regular Marines in general suck. We're playing a mech game. What you want are guys with BS4 and multiple special weapons and minimum stats and armour saves and points cost in every other category. What GK do well is run unshakeable and unstunnable vehicles. Now if we could only field a legal army from the dedicated transports category and we wouldn't need anything else.

24" range is bad. It's very bad. Everyone outshoots them because of that range. GK (lists with actual GKs) can't force anyone to come to them because they don't have the necessary firepower and if they advance full speed they skip one shooting phase altogether. Sure you can hide them inside a Razorback all game long but then you'd just want more Razorbacks and cheaper Marines with meltaguns in there, not force weapon guys with a psycannon doing nothing. The only use of Strike Squads that I can see is Warp Quake, but 110 points for that is a bit much still when you can get 3 henchmen with special weapons for 30+ points.

Grey Knights rule the 12" to 24" zone. Decent HtH spread throughout the codex says they dont have to worry about sitting back and shooting, they can do it from mid-feild w/o fear.

Daemonbane is a gimmick. You'll probably get something out of it once every 20 games. Force weapons are cool, but you're purposefully forgetting the fact they can't activate the force weapons the same turn they use hammerhand, and that they have only one measly attack, and they're the ones who will be charged, not the other way around. What are power weapons for anyway? Fighting one very specific type of Blood Angels?

One character in joined to the unit activates hammerhand that effects the unit?....the rest kick off force weapons. Not that difficult to do both if you have to. It's academic however. Multi-wound models dead even w/o the extra str....force weapons, on basic troops...Not good? Don't make me laugh.

Awesomesauce. Regular Marines in general suck. We're playing a mech game. What you want are guys with BS4 and multiple special weapons and minimum stats and armour saves and points cost in every other category. What GK do well is run unshakeable and unstunnable vehicles. Now if we could only field a legal army from the dedicated transports category and we wouldn't need anything else.

Regular Marines may suck...these guys arent exactly regular.

GK's dont have to play a Mech Game. Try to run Mech within 24" of Grey Knight troops...see how long your vehicles last.

Try to run Mech within 24" of Grey Knight troops...see how long your vehicles last.

If you could only explain why the vehicles (chimeras, hydras, manticores, leman russes, lasbacks, venoms, raiders, ravagers, etc, etc.) need to go within 24" of the GK I could see what you're saying.

Therion wrote:

Try to run Mech within 24" of Grey Knight troops...see how long your vehicles last.

If you could only explain why the vehicles (chimeras, hydras, manticores, leman russes, lasbacks, venoms, raiders, ravagers, etc, etc.) need to go within 24" of the GK I could see what you're saying.

Well...since the Grey Knights are mid feild if they need to be. Sort of hard to avoid it.

Well...since the Grey Knights are mid feild if they need to be. Sort of hard to avoid it.

a) Their anti-tank firepower within 24" range isn't that scary. Psycannon is slightly better than a lascannon when it has range. It's still just a lascannon. If you have 20-30 of them, you have firepower, then move to b:

b) Things that outrange all those psycannons will deploy to their table edge, not 12" in. Now the only chance you got (of actually outshooting a shooty enemy) is some type of alpha strike list and since Purifiers/Purgators with quad psycannons are unable to do that we must be talking about some different type of list than the '24 inch zone of death' that you described.

I simply can't see it happening with Strike Squads. The situation was completely different in the scandex when psycannons were 36".

I think the detractors are complaining because of the lack of more than 1 Attack.

they got used to having (effectively) 2 base attacks per PAGK, and S6 attacks.

So dropping true grit and giving everyone S4 Force weapons(with added bonuses depending on points spent) hurts "dare poor widdle feawings".

Therion: 24" weapons is bad, really? I mean 1 shot 24" is bad, but 2 shots is not, especially on the move. These are marines Firing 20 S4 ap5 shots, advancing towards you and maybe even making good use of cover. There is nowhere to hide(except out of LOS), no where to run(without turbo-boosting/Flat out movement). Grey knights do not need the enemy to come to them, they will go to the enemy; Gun-line infantry need the enemy to come to them, Grey knights are not gun-line infantry; they are more like Shoota boyz with better range and BS.

Why exactly will the grey knight be charged vs Charging: the only way for that to make sense is for the grey knights play to forget that he has better maneuverability while maintaining sustained fire over other armies, or to completely forget that his weapons are all assault. All other normal marines get charged; grey knights charge.

Limited Scope does not wide reaching assessments make. SM Profile is far from crummy; foot marine lists are still competitive; and it is the marine Statline that makes them so. your whole post smacks of whining about the Grey Knights not being a "win button"; this game has no "Win button" Armies; if you want a "Win Button" army: go play a different game.

Therion wrote:

Try to run Mech within 24" of Grey Knight troops...see how long your vehicles last.

If you could only explain why the vehicles (chimeras, hydras, manticores, leman russes, lasbacks, venoms, raiders, ravagers, etc, etc.) need to go within 24" of the GK I could see what you're saying.

Pitched Battle, Dawn of War or any mission with objectives?

Therion: 24" weapons is bad, really? I mean 1 shot 24" is bad, but 2 shots is not, especially on the move. These are marines Firing 20 S4 ap5 shots, advancing towards you and maybe even making good use of cover. There is nowhere to hide(except out of LOS)

Nowhere to hide? How about transports?

Pitched Battle, Dawn of War or any mission with objectives?

Don't be dense now. You move to the objectives turn 4 onwards after the enemy has been blown to bits.

Therion wrote:

Try to run Mech within 24" of Grey Knight troops...see how long your vehicles last.

If you could only explain why the vehicles (chimeras, hydras, manticores, leman russes, lasbacks, venoms, raiders, ravagers, etc, etc.) need to go within 24" of the GK I could see what you're saying.

Therion, you can do better than this.

So your IG and DE heavy tanks and transports can outrange Grey Knight basic troopers.

Impressive, but is this supposed to be anything but obvious?

You know what they DONT outrange? Grey Knight Transports, psybolt equipped Riflemen, shunting DK's and other stuff. Weird huh?


What about your IG or DE regular troopers?....oh yea...troops to troops, they get wasted b/c str 5 stormbolters will kill the crap out of them.

We're not talking about comparisons of your heavy support units to Grey Knight basic troops, we're comparing troops choices.

Deadshane1 wrote:...b/c thats what everyone seems to be saying.

Best infantry shooty weapon in the game. (especially when you add psybolts) Check.
Best Close Combat Weapon in the game. (WITH the added bonus of Daemonbane) Check.
Marine Stats. Check.
ATSKNF. Check.

They seem to be rather broken to me. poor tactical squads, no one wants you anymore. Adding a storm bolter and power weapon to a basic marine is worth more than 4 points IMHO.

DE trueborn with shard carbines cost 17 points. 3 shots at 18", 4+ posion. They have 2 attacks, but Str3 T3 and a 5+ save. They are also breakable and take up an elite choice. 4+ posion is better than str4 or 5 only against MC. I would gladly take 1 power weapon attack for 2 regular attacks and that still has not gone near the Str3 T3 5+ save.

Therion wrote:Don't be dense now. You move to the objectives turn 4 onwards after the enemy has been blown to bits.

Oh, how could I have been so dense? Thank you, Therion, for enlightening me.

You can't avoid the 24" bubble or as Deadshane brought up, all of their transports, shunting troops, lazermonkeys, etc that are supporting them.

Unless we're just doing Vet Squads vs Strike Squads. Then we can have an entertaining chase around the board while you fire your multilazor at us.

I swear, some people must play on 10x6 boards or something.

Good luck staying 24" away from a Grey Knight army that has:

all the transports everybody else does
Stormraven aka fastest assault vehicle in the game
everything deep strikes
Fastest MC in the game (Dreadknight)
Fastest Infantry in the game (Interceptor Squads)
the ability to move and shoot
teleporting psychic power

You hug the board edge with your chimeras while I sit on the objectives.

I plan on taking a Grandmaster, 3 Dreadknights with teleporters, and 30 Interceptor Marines. All of which (except for the Master himself) can assault turn 1.

You still need troops with a GM, 3 DK's with Teleporters and 3 Interceptor Squads.

You can't avoid the 24" bubble or as Deadshane brought up, all of their transports, shunting troops, lazermonkeys, etc that are supporting them.

We're not talking about comparisons of your heavy support units to Grey Knight basic troops, we're comparing troops choices.

Impressive. After I pointed out the weakness of the GK Strike Squads you countered my argument by saying that you have other units with a better range. It's great that you're learning.

I plan on taking a Grandmaster, 3 Dreadknights with teleporters, and 30 Interceptor Marines. All of which (except for the Master himself) can assault turn 1.

200+ ~660 + ~825-850 + 2x5 Strike Squad GK in Rhinos or something 280 = 2000 points.

You have 2x5 scoring models unless you don't use Grand Strategy for scouting. It's D3 units by the way that can scout or score, not 3, and only scouting units will assault turn 1. You also have about 6 weapons capable of busting tanks but hey you sure have a lot of power weapons that you can try to scratch moving transports with while you're getting blown to bits. With IG I run 17 AV12 vehicles at 2000 points. It wouldn't be pretty for you.

We're not talking about comparisons of your heavy support units to Grey Knight basic troops, we're comparing troops choices.

We're not doing any cross-army comparisons. We're establishing the fact that the Strike Squad GK aren't good and that the troops section should be filled with Henchmen because they simply do a better all-around job in pretty much every kit.

Impressive. After I pointed out the weakness of the GK Strike Squads you countered my argument by saying that you have other units with a better range. It's great that you're learning.

No.

I stated that Strike Squads are not bad and you stated the stupidly obvious by saying that Heavy Support and HW armed transports outrange them.

Ummmm...duh?

We're not talking about your heavy support, we're talking about comparisons between troop choices here and their effectivness when compared to each other. NOT when compared to something from a different section of the FOC that is SUPPOSED to have more firepower than they do.

NOT when compared to something from a different section of the FOC that is SUPPOSED to have more firepower than they do.

Of course we are. If you're buying multiple ten man squads of Strike Squad GK it means you're spending points on short ranged units. Your army will therefore have considerably less long range power than it could have on top of having less long range firepower than many other codex armies naturally. My contention was that you're putting yourself at a disadvantage which you can interpret as Strike Squads sucking (as in your thread title). I only brought other armies into the question when you tried to argue you won't get outshot and outranged because you'll just walk to the middle of the table and then blow up the Chimera wall with storm bolters.

Deadshane1 wrote:

I stated that Strike Squads are not bad and you stated the stupidly obvious by saying that Heavy Support and HW armed transports outrange them.

The 24" thing isnt too bad, its just you need to be careful about movement and maximizing your damage rather than spamming slightly undercosted rocket teams and being able to hit the entire map.

is it a disadvantage? sure, is it insurmountable? no way.

In my experience people /really/ underestimated even the previous codex's stormbolter marines at range, now that they can threaten rhino's and many light vehicles, it'll be interesting.
I don't see razorback spam as being super effective, every unit of GK's is pretty much guaranteed to at least shake one.

It's not that they suck...it's that they don't fir in the current meta. It looks like they are a great buy, but right now, guard and spacewolves are at the top because their troop choices get cheap access to melta and a transport.

The melta part means they kill other mech armies better, and the cheap access means they have more of them.

You are paying for guys with storm bolter and power weapons, but in ths edition, storm bolters and power weapons are junk against mech armies.

scuddman wrote:It's not that they suck...it's that they don't fir in the current meta. It looks like they are a great buy, but right now, guard and spacewolves are at the top because their troop choices get cheap access to melta and a transport.

The melta part means they kill other mech armies better, and the cheap access means they have more of them.

You are paying for guys with storm bolter and power weapons, but in ths edition, storm bolters and power weapons are junk against mech armies.

Finally another person who is playing the same version of the game. Thank you.

I think GK can very much compete against mech armies. You have str 8 dreadnaughts to pop transports at range, (btw AV11-13 isn't very durable) and you have psychic powers that allow you to teleport your infantry which makes up for the lack of mobility that transports give you. You also don't have those easy kill points that rhinos, raiders, and chimeras are.

All these things are true for Pariahs, and how many of those do you see taken because they're awesome?

DarknessEternal wrote:
All these things are true for Pariahs, and how many of those do you see taken because they're awesome?

Silly and unrelated point (straw-man?)

They are in the necron book, but aren't necrons and don't count towards phaseout.

Necrons don't have transports, and have a bunch of other issues before you can even think about pariahs... Which almost cost as much as GKTs.

On topic:

GKs have issues, having enough anti tank platforms without resorting to henchman spam is one. Cheap and numerous psycannons go a long way to helping with taking out transports, but aren't a panacea.

I think that overall the book is pretty balanced. It has its strength and weakness, but it still can compete without resorting to the "mono build" that some books tend to have. I think in the near future we will hear some gnashing of teeth complaining of how OP the book is, giving way to the more rational people saying it really isn't.

I'm not really interested in how well GKs stack up to marines , I'm more interested in the DE and guard matchups, those look scary, while I think GKs can walk on most opposing Meq lists.

Perhaps ... on the off chance, between all the screams of overpowered and underpowered, we have before us....a ...a balanced codex ?

Jaon wrote:Perhaps ... on the off chance, between all the screams of overpowered and underpowered, we have before us....a ...a balanced codex ?

That is my opinion, though some people will claim that any Modern Meq codex is OP. GKs give up some of the flexiblity that codex marines get for more elite units and unique auxiliaries.

They have foils for common problems, and ways to defend against people trying exploit their weakness. Seems pretty balanced, the points costs seem a bit low on some of the units, but that might be more of a GW overvaluing PWs (and lets be honest, most force weapons very rarely use the ID mode, the FW somewhat makes up for the low number of attacks on occasion) and storm bolters in other books.

I'm not quite sure yet. The Inquisitional elements can really push it into powergame territory. We'll have to wait until players get a few games under their belts to really see how it'll work out.

Jaon wrote:Perhaps ... on the off chance, between all the screams of overpowered and underpowered, we have before us....a ...a balanced codex ?

I haven't really seen much being described as underpowered in the codex. Then again, I haven't seen the codex yet.

notabot187 wrote:I'm not really interested in how well GKs stack up to marines , I'm more interested in the DE and guard matchups, those look scary, while I think GKs can walk on most opposing Meq lists.

I really like this statement.

GK seems to be one of the first books that looks to perfectly counter MEQ books, but will struggle against a lot of Xenos.

I forsee Eldar, DE, IG, and to a lesser extent, Tau, all initially having a lot of success against GK. Yes, even against OMGTHIRTYINCHSCOUTINGDREADKNIGHTSSSSSS. The same tools people have been using to kill MC's will work against the Dreadknight: Plasma, Lascannons, Melta. It only has a 5+ invul and 4W, which means (GASP!) that it takes the exact same number of wounds to kill it as it does to kill a Trygon! Sure, it's more survivable against Krak Missiles, but in the end, fielding 3 Dreadknights means they aren't taking any S8 Riflemen Dreads or Land Raiders, which means Terminators are either walking, Deep Striking, or taking a Stormraven, none of which are a great option if a forth of your points are tied up in MC's downfield.

24" Psycannons are balanced, so get over it. If a Venom is dump enough to get within 24" of a Psycannon, it deserves to die. Simple as that.

Storm Bolters make Grey Knights good at something that doesn't even matter: anti-infantry at 12-12"... but when does that even come into play in Mech Edition 40k?

Yeah, Power Weapons all over the place (especially I6 Power Weapons) mean that Grey Knights are going to beat any non-dedicated close combat unit in assault, but their low model count means the opponent gets to be much more selective about when and where to engage GK's in close combat.

And, lastly, the HQ slot is extremely competitive. Taking Coteaz means you need to choose between a Librarian and a Grand Master. Taking both a Librarian and a Grand Master is insanely expensive, and suffer from both Deathstar Syndome and a lack of deployment options.