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Deadshane can get a bit over the top, certainly. He's a nice guy, but goes overboard some. Definitely hit "Alert Moderator" if you see him get rude in a post.

Stonyfield is an organic yogurt/dairy company here in New Hampshire. Their admin office is in my city and their main plant in the next town over. They're available nationally here, but Google is failing me in an attempt to find them in Sweden. Sorry. :(

Nice guy huh? I like nice guys Good to know, I´ll ease up on angry retorts in the future.

Bummer on that ice cream, guess I´ll have to stick with ben and jerry here but those are far to little coffee for me:(
Thanks for the help though.

Bummer on that ice cream, guess I´ll have to stick with ben and jerry here but those are far to little coffee for me:(

Wouldn't mind one of these myself. I went on a holiday to Thailand this winter and once I found Black Canyon there I was hooked. Coffee + ice cream = win.




Those Grey Knight Strike squads would feel a lot better if I had some of that right now. Alas, I don't.

First the blood angels, then the tyranids, now the grey knights. Is GW trying to make this game way more lethal then it should be?

ie, 90 point doom of malantai.

Thanks, Pyriel. Yeah, he can get a little silly in debates sometimes (and I don't think he'd mind me saying so), but he gets a LOT silly drinking, and can be a lot of fun. If you ever make it stateside for Adepticon, definitely come drink with him, or me, or ideally both.

I never realized I would bond with the people of my forefathers' Scandinavian lands over coffee ice cream.

If you ever get the chance, defiitely try the Stonyfield. Their Greek-style yogurt, I hear, is also excellent, if you like that stuff. Back to ice cream, if you're ever in Boston, try getting to Toscanini's. Best ice cream I've ever had anywhere. One glorious summer in my college days I was dating a girl who worked there, and I'd drop her off there in the morning for work and break my fast with a mocha frappe made with espresso ice cream and vienna fudge chocolate ice cream.

Ben & Jerry's is good, but Stonyfield is better, and Toscanini's is decadence on a spoon.

Mannahnin wrote:Yeah, he can get a little silly in debates sometimes


Ben & Jerry's is good, but Stonyfield is better, and Toscanini's is decadence on a spoon.

Awwww...no you di-int!

Don't make me rant on for a half hour of typing.

Don't make me make you ban me for being a jackhole!

Nobody, I mean NOBODY will slight Ben and Jerry's Oh my, Apple Pie Ice cream. How dare you speak ill of the deceased!

Screw Gaming, this is Ice Cream...I WILL KILL YOU! (hope that's not to "hard" for j/k)


btw...this isnt going off topic is it? I mean, isnt Ice Cream always ON topic?

Overall it looks like a pretty balanced Codex.
There ARE a few gimickey builds, but thats the same with any Codex that can spam 3x one unit.

There will be a low model count, initially a very low count as alot of GK player will want to try out the different weapon options and upgrades. As with any new toy.

Now out of the multiple people who will be playing GK in my local area i will take 3 as an example.
1) This player will create a list, filled with shiny, point-ineffective units, as he does with every other army. It's fun for him to use units he likes, even if they are "bad" for their points.
2) This player will fill his list with 3x DK and most likely a SR full of pain. It's the type of play he is. When he did 1k salamanders he took 10x hammernators, when he did 1.5k BA he had Sanguinor/SR/DC/dreads. He will take the most individually hard to kill models and throw caution to the wind regarding model count.
3) This player will sit down, read the codex, and create a list that will work well against any army. Most likely it will be vastly different to the most popular net-lists and have an ability to do something random and unpredictable.

I know who i'll put my money on to win the majority of their games.
And it will not be any players who tools up on spamming DK or Paladins.

With the the large possibility of a low model count you will really have to sit down and take careful consideration over every unit that you take. Building a face-beating GK list will take skill, as any gimmick will get analised and taken apart after a game or three.

Pyriel- wrote:
Gee I wonder why one guys vitriol is ok while another´s is not.
Go be a hypocrite to someone else please.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, but your post came across as more rude to me.

Oh, and about the holofields: Wave Serpents don't get them.

@Walrus

Shhh.....You'll ruin the fun with facts!!!!

My mind has been blown after reading the arguments against grey knight strike forces.

/cry

Grey knight strike squads suck because they don't come with ice cream or caffeine!

Wouldn't mind one of these myself. I went on a holiday to Thailand this winter and once I found Black Canyon there I was hooked. Coffee + ice cream = win.

Aaah, I´m so going to make me one of those.

Thanks, Pyriel. Yeah, he can get a little silly in debates sometimes (and I don't think he'd mind me saying so), but he gets a LOT silly drinking, and can be a lot of fun. If you ever make it stateside for Adepticon, definitely come drink with him, or me, or ideally both.

One of my goals, I´ll be sure to email you when its due time. Be fun getting a breer and game with you guys.

I never realized I would bond with the people of my forefathers' Scandinavian lands over coffee ice cream.

Me neither since I absolutely h a t e coffee but love cofee ice cream
Weird...

Nobody, I mean NOBODY will slight Ben and Jerry's Oh my, Apple Pie Ice cream. How dare you speak ill of the deceased!

Ben and Jerry is the s**i for sure BUT (there is always a butt, besides I like butts too) there are better ice creams out there.

btw...this isnt going off topic is it? I mean, isnt Ice Cream always ON topic?

Anyone trying to mod a topic away from ice cream is in for some serious trouble...as am I for a serious board vacation most probably

3) This player will sit down, read the codex, and create a list that will work well against any army. Most likely it will be vastly different to the most popular net-lists and have an ability to do something random and unpredictable.

This one is for me. I tried some experiment builds and played of against dark eldar and space wolfs, the two armies that will pose the most problems for the GKs.
I must say I am starting to like orbital bombardments, they make life pesky for 9 out of 10 DE armies and GK shooting IF you build your army around getting it all within 24´at the same time is pretty good BUT and here is the real surprise, GK melee sucks ass.
They just cant handle stormshields.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, but your post came across as more rude to me.

Oh, and about the holofields: Wave Serpents don't get them.

Lets disagree then.
Other transports get holofields, Point is a 15p wargear that can whack the half the GK armies potential or even totally ruin a GK army that is based on and around libbies and that can be hidden in a transport is not what I call balance. It´s one humongous screwup by Ward!
it´s really not that hard to make an almost indestructible vehicle (for GKs) for an eldar army.

Think about it, a few of the very best and most fun GK builds will circle around 200-450p librarian HQs.
Is it to much to ask that this is not pretty much nerfed in its tracks by a 15p eldar wargear everybody takes and often even in multiples?

Seriously, letting such a big loophole through in a new codex is bordering on criminally PLEASE DON'T USE "slowed" AS A PEJORATIVE ON DAKA so yes, I´m in my full rights to be a tad upset at the guy that let that happen.

The one logical explanation to this crap could actually be that the GK codex was made with revised eldar in mind IF eldar will get a new codex in the "near" future and IF such idiotic wargears are already being decided to be hit with a nerf bat.
But alas, that is a long shot.

Grey knight strike squads suck because they don't come with ice cream or caffeine!

Ice cream mind you.

This is my thought on the GKSS, it might piss some people of but this is what I think and why.

GK strike squads dont suck at all or rather dont suck in the same way as SM tacs "dont" suck.
You say look, for 20p you get a power weapon and access to psycannons and for a crapload of more points you can make them into glorified assault squads will less attacks.

Then I say look at the SM tac squads, for a measly 16p you get BOTLERS and access to a cheap heavy weapon and the possibility to take a powerfist and combi bolter.
Truthfully now, on paper the SM tac looks to be extremely overpowered, you can spam these guys putting 6 tac squads into rhinos and all can shoot a powerful heavy weapon and all have bolters that massacre infantry at close and all have powerfists that make them melee effective.

Now in reality tacs s you c k, we all know it, we all build lists accordingly and nowhere have I seen or encountered an effective SM army that is built around 5-6 tacs.
The tac is used as a rather weak support unit to the real damage dealers like assault terminators, land raiders podded dreadnoughts etc.
The tac costs 200-ish points if kitted out to be truly all round but is worthless in each and every specific role vs any dedicated melee/shooty squad out there so no matter what you do the opponent can easily neutralize the tac squad.
It kills nothing in melee for what it costs, everyone and their kitchen sinks build armies that can eat 3+ saves for breakfast and bolters are only so good on a 16p model and I lost track of the amount of people complaining they have to take 2 tacs just to fill out troop slots.
But often is still shines in its supportive roles.

Look at the GK strike squad:
It is basically to SM what an SM tac squad is to other "individually weaker" races. More expensive, more versatile but oh so weak in anything it really tries to achieve vs dedicated units in other armies.
Staying power is even worse then SM tacs since your more expensive models go down just as easy and fast as space marines and you dont have the luxury of staying back like a tac since your 24 only range forces you to move forward.
The GK strike squad is the perfect support unit for the rest of the GK army, just as the SM tac is used a support squad for the SM army, it is to weak in melee to be used as melee workhorse (with only 1A and S5 half the times that can be neutered pretty easy by hoods, nid tyrants, eldar toys and what not) and to weak in shooting since it looses half its heavy fire if it moves and it h a s to move and keep moving to react to the enemy.

It is equally to weak in shooting to be relied on doing more damage then the enemies counterparts and needs to stand still if it wants to shine in shooting.
Even an SM tac squad outshoots the GK strike squad one on one not to mention point-to-point wise. If you want to even the scores you need to move and move a lot, rely on other units to shroud you etc all while the opponent can kill you from 36´with a 5p plasmacannon.

In a mixed army the GK strike squad is worth its weight in gold, it brings so much additional benefits to the GK army as a whole but like with the tac squad, basing an army of GK strike squads is suicide.

If you want to make an interceptor squad there goes 280p (or more) for a squad who´s primary role in game is to contest objectives on turn 6.
This means the squad needs to be as whole as possible on said turn and that means keeping in out of harms way for the whole game and/or using it carefully in supportive roles from afar in a way that will make the opponent not decimate them.
This in effect means you are playing with a 280p disadvantage (a squad you do not fully use/commit for 5 turns) for 5 turns for the advantage of IF it is strong enough to hold objectives, be able to shunt it on turn 6 to deny the enemy an objective.
Worth it?

Only making a strike squad and use it as a 280p assault squad that sucks in melee for what it costs (take 280p worth of blood claws and see what they can do in melee)
is not effective as the GKs have other means to get to melee with better melee units.

All in all each GK unit sucks in itself but in proper tandem usage with the correct units of other kinds the sum of all squad types becomes bigger then its parts.
The GKT squad sucks because it is so easy to DS near it and shoot it to death for example but if you have a strike squad nearby that weakness is negated etc and all of a sudden both the GKT and the GKSS squads are not sucking at all, they just became really good.

I´ll be very surprised in GK armies in the future actually work based on strike squads rather then a mixture of everything, the army is not designed to be a one-unit army like deathwing and I think that is unfortunate since I would absolutely love to be able to build competitive Greywing armies or strike squad hordes.
I hate being forced to take a little of this and that in order to get a functioning whole but that is just my personal taste.

Shhh.....You'll ruin the fun with facts!!!!

Those facts above enough for you?

Pyriel- wrote:Other transports get holofields, Point is a 15p wargear that can whack the half the GK armies potential or even totally ruin a GK army that is based on and around libbies and that can be hidden in a transport is not what I call balance. It´s one humongous screwup by Ward!
it´s really not that hard to make an almost indestructible vehicle (for GKs) for an eldar army.

THAT is something I can agree with!

Pyriel- wrote:
Even an SM tac squad outshoots the GK strike squad one on one not to mention point-to-point wise.

Just curious, how can they outshoot a GKSS one on one when the GKSS have storm bolters? If we're bringing specials into the calculation then the GKs would have psycannons, no?

Good post.

Pyriel, definitely PM or email if you're going to make it to Adepticon; or any big event in the Boston area/Northeast US, in my case, and we'll definitely get a beer or an ice cream. Or both. Toscanini's has Guinness-flavored ice cream.

Thanks Deadshane and everyone else for bonding over ice cream; even if he and I now have a blood feud over Ben & Jerry's vs. Stonyfield. Sigh. The sacrifices we make to keep the peace.

Pyriel- wrote:

Oh, and about the holofields: Wave Serpents don't get them.

Lets disagree then.
Other transports get holofields, Point is a 15p wargear that can whack the half the GK armies potential or even totally ruin a GK army that is based on and around libbies and that can be hidden in a transport is not what I call balance. It´s one humongous screwup by Ward!
it´s really not that hard to make an almost indestructible vehicle (for GKs) for an eldar army.

Think about it, a few of the very best and most fun GK builds will circle around 200-450p librarian HQs.
Is it to much to ask that this is not pretty much nerfed in its tracks by a 15p eldar wargear everybody takes and often even in multiples?

Seriously, letting such a big loophole through in a new codex is bordering on criminally PLEASE DON'T USE "slowed" AS A PEJORATIVE ON DAKA so yes, I´m in my full rights to be a tad upset at the guy that let that happen.

The one logical explanation to this crap could actually be that the GK codex was made with revised eldar in mind IF eldar will get a new codex in the "near" future and IF such idiotic wargears are already being decided to be hit with a nerf bat.

One would hope. But the Eldar actually have the same problem, and it's never been fixed. Much of the Eldar army is only good if Farseers can reliably get their powers off. And when the vast majority of SM-variant armies out there have hoods (or SW better-than-hoods), Eldar suffer badly. Heck, when Librarians became common, Eldar Seer Council lists went from a dominant army frequently seen at GT top tables, to virtually nonexistent. Because that expensive uber-unit is just too big a gamble and too vulnerabl if a hood is in the game.

shealyr wrote:

notabot187 wrote:I'm not really interested in how well GKs stack up to marines , I'm more interested in the DE and guard matchups, those look scary, while I think GKs can walk on most opposing Meq lists.

I really like this statement.

GK seems to be one of the first books that looks to perfectly counter MEQ books, but will struggle against a lot of Xenos.

I forsee Eldar, DE, IG, and to a lesser extent, Tau, all initially having a lot of success against GK. Yes, even against OMGTHIRTYINCHSCOUTINGDREADKNIGHTSSSSSS. The same tools people have been using to kill MC's will work against the Dreadknight: Plasma, Lascannons, Melta. It only has a 5+ invul and 4W, which means (GASP!) that it takes the exact same number of wounds to kill it as it does to kill a Trygon! Sure, it's more survivable against Krak Missiles, but in the end, fielding 3 Dreadknights means they aren't taking any S8 Riflemen Dreads or Land Raiders, which means Terminators are either walking, Deep Striking, or taking a Stormraven, none of which are a great option if a forth of your points are tied up in MC's downfield.

24" Psycannons are balanced, so get over it. If a Venom is dump enough to get within 24" of a Psycannon, it deserves to die. Simple as that.



Storm Bolters make Grey Knights good at something that doesn't even matter: anti-infantry at 12-12"... but when does that even come into play in Mech Edition 40k?

Yeah, Power Weapons all over the place (especially I6 Power Weapons) mean that Grey Knights are going to beat any non-dedicated close combat unit in assault, but their low model count means the opponent gets to be much more selective about when and where to engage GK's in close combat.

And, lastly, the HQ slot is extremely competitive. Taking Coteaz means you need to choose between a Librarian and a Grand Master. Taking both a Librarian and a Grand Master is insanely expensive, and suffer from both Deathstar Syndome and a lack of deployment options.

I believe that your wrong about the Stormraven in the GK codex, Your going to see more GK player fielding it, then BA players.

Just curious, how can they outshoot a GKSS one on one when the GKSS have storm bolters? If we're bringing specials into the calculation then the GKs would have psycannons, no?

Well a bolter kills about 1 GK while the GK stormbolters kill 2 marines at 12+ inches.
You have to realize something first, you balance units point-to-point so the 220p SSGKs will actually face of with 220p of SM tac.
That means a 200p powerfist and plasmacannon tac squad is 11 man strong and still the SSGK have a point advantage.

The 8 stormbolters vs the 8-9 bolters of the tac squad will down about 1 more marine per turn then the GKS themselves will loose, so far so good.
Then comes the issue of heavy weapons, that 5p plasmacannon eats 20p SSGKs for breakfast at 36´ while the SSGKs must spend turns even getting into 24 range to start using psycannons and even stormbolters.

In melee those 20pp SSGKs will kill about 2.5 marines each turn while the pf tac squad kills 2 SSGKs each turn.

The point is and has always been that the Tac as well as the SSGK are night worthless on their own but in working and supporting other things in the army they will be very powerful.
None of those units can be used as a workhorse since both melee and shooting power is very low, model cost high and staying power pathetic.

Pyriel, definitely PM or email if you're going to make it to Adepticon; or any big event in the Boston area/Northeast US, in my case, and we'll definitely get a beer or an ice cream. Or both. Toscanini's has Guinness-flavored ice cream.

I´ll keep that in mind but with my usual luck I wont be going for quite some time still.
On the contrary, if you ever get your behind to euroland or sweden you wont have to cash out for a hotel.

One would hope. But the Eldar actually have the same problem, and it's never been fixed. Much of the Eldar army is only good if Farseers can reliably get their powers off. And when the vast majority of SM-variant armies out there have hoods (or SW better-than-hoods), Eldar suffer badly. Heck, when Librarians became common, Eldar Seer Council lists went from a dominant army frequently seen at GT top tables, to virtually nonexistent. Because that expensive uber-unit is just too big a gamble and too vulnerabl if a hood is in the game.

Guess I didnt think of that one, the sword cuts both ways.
Still the eldar dont suffer nearly as much against a GK 150+ point 24´only ranged hood as the GK suffer from a 15p unlimited range eldar wargear.

I believe that your wrong about the Stormraven in the GK codex, Your going to see more GK player fielding it, then BA players.

I hope you are right, I just bought two of the buggers and am magnetizing their weapons.
I just cant see the SR being used in competitive play with all the runes and cheesy SW psychic hoods shutting down shrouding all over the place.

Pyriel- wrote:

Just curious, how can they outshoot a GKSS one on one when the GKSS have storm bolters? If we're bringing specials into the calculation then the GKs would have psycannons, no?

Well a bolter kills about 1 GK while the GK stormbolters kill 2 marines at 12+ inches.
You have to realize something first, you balance units point-to-point so the 220p SSGKs will actually face of with 220p of SM tac.
That means a 200p powerfist and plasmacannon tac squad is 11 man strong and still the SSGK have a point advantage.

The 8 stormbolters vs the 8-9 bolters of the tac squad will down about 1 more marine per turn then the GKS themselves will loose, so far so good.
Then comes the issue of heavy weapons, that 5p plasmacannon eats 20p SSGKs for breakfast at 36´ while the SSGKs must spend turns even getting into 24 range to start using psycannons and even stormbolters.

In melee those 20pp SSGKs will kill about 2.5 marines each turn while the pf tac squad kills 2 SSGKs each turn.

Yep, pretty much. The flipside of this, of course, is that the GKs can close the distance (usually in a Rhino) and start spraying the marines down. But the SM can do the same thing; and they're cheaper. Obviously unit vs. unit comparisons across different codices are inherently flawed, but the above concepts are illustrative. As you say, neither is a powerhouse unit. They're both a bit pricey for being all-rounders, and handicapped against a specialist unit.

That said, I do think they're viable, especially as other folks described using them earlier in the thread- with S5 and Psycannons. But you're still not going to want an army full of them.

Pyriel- wrote:

Pyriel, definitely PM or email if you're going to make it to Adepticon; or any big event in the Boston area/Northeast US, in my case, and we'll definitely get a beer or an ice cream. Or both. Toscanini's has Guinness-flavored ice cream.

I´ll keep that in mind but with my usual luck I wont be going for quite some time still.
On the contrary, if you ever get your behind to euroland or sweden you wont have to cash out for a hotel.

See, THIS is why Swedes are cool. The furthest North I've been in euroland is Amsterdam. There, England, and various parts of Eastern and Central Europe. No Northern Europe or Scandinavia yet, although that's GOT to eventually happen, as the wife is a huge metalhead, particularly into Norwegian and Finnish stuff (no slight on Sweden, of course).

Pyriel- wrote:

One would hope. But the Eldar actually have the same problem, and it's never been fixed. Much of the Eldar army is only good if Farseers can reliably get their powers off. And when the vast majority of SM-variant armies out there have hoods (or SW better-than-hoods), Eldar suffer badly. Heck, when Librarians became common, Eldar Seer Council lists went from a dominant army frequently seen at GT top tables, to virtually nonexistent. Because that expensive uber-unit is just too big a gamble and too vulnerabl if a hood is in the game.

Guess I didnt think of that one, the sword cuts both ways.
Still the eldar dont suffer nearly as much against a GK 150+ point 24´only ranged hood as the GK suffer from a 15p unlimited range eldar wargear.

That's true because Eldar players have pretty much abandoned the seer council as a competitive concept. I don't think the GK have to worry TOO much about Eldar, though, as their book is so outdated and they're such a tiny presence at tournaments nowadays, IME. We'll have to see what happens with Eldar eventually get updated. I just don't see it happening soon, as that's probably going to be another major Jes Goodwin resculpt project, and Tau and Necrons (at least) for xenos are almost certainly ahead of it in line.

Pyriel- wrote:

I believe that your wrong about the Stormraven in the GK codex, Your going to see more GK player fielding it, then BA players.

I hope you are right, I just bought two of the buggers and am magnetizing their weapons.
I just cant see the SR being used in competitive play with all the runes and cheesy SW psychic hoods shutting down shrouding all over the place.

Bear in mind that BA use it without Shrouding. The preferred tactic is usually just to Reserve it if you're not going first, then (if the enemy stays outside assault distance from your table edge) jet it 24" onto the table, preferably on a side away from the opponent's higher concentration of guns; so the enemy only gets one turn of shooting at it before it delivers the assault cargo. And it has a 4+ skimmers moving fast cover save on that turn. I don't know how much GK are going to use it, though, as their stuff is pricier overall, and they don't have a dreadnought with blood claws as such an ideal thing to deliver using the SR.

I think the decision between the GK HQ's is an interesting one. It's hard for me to see myself ever choosing a Grand Master over Coteaz or a Librarian in 1750 points games simply because the HQ slot becomes too expensive then. Between Coteaz and the Librarian, my instinct would make me go with the former because GK Dreads already provide a -4 LD anti-psychic bubble so the psychic hood isn't as necessary and the shrouding despite the hubbub here is still only a 16% increase to the saves of the vehicles. It's a good bonus, but considering the Librarian's enormous price tag, does it outweigh Coteaz' mystic rule and re-roll to seize the initiative and infinite scoring henchmen? I don't think so, but it's probably not a complete point sink either.

Yep. I agree. Although I suspect that "infinite" scoring henchmen are going to turn into 2-6 Henchmen when they become Troops. They're still a heck of a bargain, though.

That said, I do think they're viable, especially as other folks described using them earlier in the thread- with S5 and Psycannons. But you're still not going to want an army full of them.

Oh yes, they are very powerful but only as a support element and denier of deepstrike.

Practically speaking none of their upgrades like halbeards, falchions etc are worth taking and we will never, ever see a falchion equipped strike squad in tournament play, ever.
Which begs the point of why Ward even included the options of falchions for this squad.
Its like including options for stormbolters for tactical marines and price them at 15p each. No one will ever take them so why is that wargear even there in the first place?

GK Dreads already provide a -4 LD anti-psychic bubble so the psychic hood isn't as necessary

Well it only protects from powers directly aimed at the GK units.
The GK psycher shut down toys are global.

That said, I do think they're viable, especially as other folks described using them earlier in the thread- with S5 and Psycannons. But you're still not going to want an army full of them.

This is another funny thing that I dont understand why people are so excited about, the S5 stormbolters.
They are not that good and I hardly think they are worth 2.5 points per model on an already expensive model.

Think about it for a second.
You pay 20p to give one squad S5 stormbolters meaning small terminator squads are not an option as are small PAGK squads.
Now the standard and most point effective shooty loadout for a SSGK is 8 stormbolters and 2 psycannons. Psycannons dont care about the S5 so you´ll end up paying 20p to give 8 knights S5 stormbolters, that´s 2.5p per model.

Now as your squad takes casulties (and it will) those models will dwindle in number making the upgrade cost more and more relatively.
So on the first turn, when your SSGK squad is full and healthy (only then) those S6 stormbolters will kill an average of 8.8p more space marines and this number will decrease every time your SSGKs take casulties.

You just paid 20p to kill 8.8p worth of SM opponents if and only if you didnt take casulties before and this works only in shooting so every turn you are in melee with those "awesome" force weapons (you know, where you really want to be) you are wasting S5 stormbolter points.

Hardly overpowered anymore, hardly powerful at all in fact.


How bout orks and such then, well you pay 20p to waste 10p worth of ork infantry IF they dont have cover but why would you want to do that when your purifyer melee is designed specifically to waste orks in the first place?

Still think the S5 stormbolter is worth taking?


So how about against vehicles?
If you think wasting vehicles by shooting bolters at them for that odd chance to get a glance then you will not win much.


Against dark eldar, sure those S5 stormbolters would be awesoem but then it makes this wargear a highly specialize one and as such worthless in competitive environments.

Having S5 stormbolters at 10 or 15p per squad would actually be balanced but the "sound" of that, S5 stormbolters for 10p per squad "sounds" so insanely overpowered everybody would scream and moan but look above and read it all over, they dont really seem worth the 20p price tag when you really think it through.

See, THIS is why Swedes are cool. The furthest North I've been in euroland is Amsterdam. There, England, and various parts of Eastern and Central Europe. No Northern Europe or Scandinavia yet, although that's GOT to eventually happen, as the wife is a huge metalhead, particularly into Norwegian and Finnish stuff (no slight on Sweden, of course).

Oh, norwegian death metal is really a standing joke here in sweden

Bear in mind that BA use it without Shrouding.

sure since the BA eggs inside the BA stormraven cost less then the GK ditto and since the BA stormraven can actually shoot S8 missiles and carry a melee dreadnought that can actually melee whereas the GK dreadnoughts can only shoot autocannons or stay back hidden to protect against lashes.

Pyriel- wrote:
This is another funny thing that I dont understand why people are so excited about, the S5 stormbolters.
They are not that good and I hardly think they are worth 2.5 points per model on an already expensive model.

Think about it for a second.
You pay 20p to give one squad S5 stormbolters meaning small terminator squads are not an option as are small PAGK squads.
Now the standard and most point effective shooty loadout for a SSGK is 8 stormbolters and 2 psycannons. Psycannons dont care about the S5 so you´ll end up paying 20p to give 8 knights S5 stormbolters, that´s 2.5p per model.

Now as your squad takes casulties (and it will) those models will dwindle in number making the upgrade cost more and more relatively.
So on the first turn, when your SSGK squad is full and healthy (only then) those S6 stormbolters will kill an average of 8.8p more space marines and this number will decrease every time your SSGKs take casulties.

You just paid 20p to kill 8.8p worth of SM opponents if and only if you didnt take casulties before and this works only in shooting so every turn you are in melee with those "awesome" force weapons (you know, where you really want to be) you are wasting S5 stormbolter points.

Hardly overpowered anymore, hardly powerful at all in fact.


How bout orks and such then, well you pay 20p to waste 10p worth of ork infantry IF they dont have cover but why would you want to do that when your purifyer melee is designed specifically to waste orks in the first place?

Still think the S5 stormbolter is worth taking?


So how about against vehicles?
If you think wasting vehicles by shooting bolters at them for that odd chance to get a glance then you will not win much.


Against dark eldar, sure those S5 stormbolters would be awesoem but then it makes this wargear a highly specialize one and as such worthless in competitive environments.

Having S5 stormbolters at 10 or 15p per squad would actually be balanced but the "sound" of that, S5 stormbolters for 10p per squad "sounds" so insanely overpowered everybody would scream and moan but look above and read it all over, they dont really seem worth the 20p price tag when you really think it through.

Honestly I think your assessment of the value of that +1 str is off. 2.5 ppm really is a good deal to start glancing razorbacks and rhinos or side armor on things like predators when only having 2 psycannons really is by no means a guaranteed threat against AV11 but being able to further suppress movement and shooting against yourself certainly has value and I think it's worth more than what you're actually paying. I do think however the more CC oriented upgrades should be largely shunned unless with a very specific purpose in mind but more rolls on the chart are certainly better than less and with a little point shaving here and there to work it in.

I think this will be more especially true when we see walking versions or I suppose I should say foot based versions of GKs. Is psy ammunition an "always" upgrade? Certainly not but, I think it will find a home in many competitive lists.

Honestly I think your assessment of the value of that +1 str is off. 2.5 ppm really is a good deal to start glancing razorbacks and rhinos or side armor on things like predators when only having 2 psycannons really is by no means a guaranteed threat against AV11 but being able to further suppress movement and shooting against yourself certainly has value and I think it's worth more than what you're actually paying.

I´m sure there will be some builds that more or less rely on added S5 fire but those imo will be specifically tailored to take full advantage of the S5 (no CC builds in particular I think).

S5 is excellent. It's wounding T3 infantry on a 2+, or T4 on a 3+. At 2.5pppm, you're buying a 16.16% greater wound rate against non-vehicle models for at 12.5% increase in cost.

You're also getting a 100% increase in damage against AV10 (Raiders, Landspeeders, Chimera side armor, Ork buggies, the occasional Trukk or other odd unit. Getting a non-zero chance of Penetrating hits.

Oh, norwegian death metal is really a standing joke here in sweden.

That's not it. Are you into metal at all? If not, no biggie. I'm into some of it, but not as much as she is.

S5 is excellent. It's wounding T3 infantry on a 2+, or T4 on a 3+. At 2.5pppm, you're buying a 16.16% greater wound rate against non-vehicle models for at 12.5% increase in cost.

You're also getting a 100% increase in damage against AV10 (Raiders, Landspeeders, Chimera side armor, Ork buggies, the occasional Trukk or other odd unit. Getting a non-zero chance of Penetrating hits.

I´d say anti vehicle shooting is the one and only reason to ever take S5. It doesnt matter if it is T3 or T4, you simply kill to little infantry points with that S5 stormbolter over an S4 to be worth taking it.
But as you say, landspeeders and whole dark eldar armies will feel the S5 but then again this makes it a rather to specialized wargear.

That's not it. Are you into metal at all? If not, no biggie. I'm into some of it, but not as much as she is.

Just a little, mostly rock and grunge metal. I have a really hard time liking growl and death metal myself.

The new rules for power armored greyknights remind me alot of noise marines with sonic blasters.

But, the noise marines are better in most respects. A better special weapon, the ability to do heavy 3 rather than just assault 2, fearless (good and bad), a champion with powerfist/ good amount of wargear options, and each marine has 2 attacks with out charging(sonic blaster, bolt pistol, ccw).

You do not see anyone using mass amounts of noise marines, and you won't see lots of power armored greyknights for the same reasons.

Pyriel, Pyriel, Pyriel...it is such an HONOR to participate to a thread only because of you...

I do not intend to lead argument with you as I do not intend to read your double A4 sized response - take it like a good advice from a smart boy.

You are acting very annoyingly, arrogantly urging your only truth with absurd lack in theory and empiric experience. Your responses are offending, your autoconsideration of your own truth is amusing and your mastery in passive agression is respectable. You are treating anyone who disagrees in any measure like masters treats disobedient animals - but you know which do you remind me of? Squeaky pig in a slaughterhouse few seconds before it is beheaded, expending maximal effort to draw attention of Big Pig god which will then descent and save it from certain dead...

One example for all - Holofields

After your classical theatre performance showing your transcendent knowledge and intellect, it is shown that you have no idea that dedicated transports in Codex Eldar cannot take holofields - how do you react after such an epic screwship? By another prolonged post featuring - lets disagree here!

What do you say next? That there are plenty of other transports. Falcon has transport capacity, but it takes heavy support slot and its rather meh compared to Fire Prisms and Warwalkers - do you know that such a unit at least exist in an Eldar Codex? So do you suggest that Eldar should not waste heavy support slots on prisms and walkers to go three expensive falcons able to transports 18 infantry models? Not mentionning the fact they are gunships able to hold objective with 5 avengers inside, not transports. What do you say next? That ALL those plentifull eldar dedicated transports can take holofields for 15 points? You know holofields are far from 15 point cost.

You would have found that out if you spent 2 minutes looking into an actual Eldar codex, instead of wasting hours for typing your poseur narcistic messages - but to have truth is not your goal isnt it? You just want to wreak havoc and overtop the others no matter the cost.

You know very rarely you can say that someone is completely wrong. Almost always there is at least some truth in any statement. But in yours? You just type walls of text trying to offend everyone showing opposition without ANY knowledge. You do not even know how several year old codex works and you claim vast knowledge of actually still NOT released codex.

Let me summarize then :" You are wrong Pyriel. Completely. Waste another hour of hateful typing instead of actually learning anything or gaining any experience."

Sorry for the offtopic, hope it helps a bit...

You are acting very annoyingly, arrogantly urging your only truth with absurd lack in theory and empiric experience. Your responses are offending, your autoconsideration of your own truth is amusing and your mastery in passive agression is respectable. You are treating anyone who disagrees in any measure like masters treats disobedient animals - but you know which do you remind me of? Squeaky pig in a slaughterhouse few seconds before it is beheaded, expending maximal effort to draw attention of Big Pig god which will then descent and save it from certain dead...

That week of the month eh?

You have my sympathy.

Jolrael wrote:*more text than I can be bothered quoting

While I do agree that Pyriel is a bit pushy, the views themselves are valid and thought-through, except the example with the holo-field. Cut the man/woman/it some slack when it comes to the validity of the views expressed.

Pyriel- wrote:
That week of the month eh?

You have my sympathy.

You DO realize that there's a reason that people become upset with you, right?

While I do agree that Pyriel is a bit pushy, the views themselves are valid and thought-through, except the example with the holo-field. Cut the man/woman/it some slack when it comes to the validity of the views expressed.

By all means, let it continue with its own walls of offensive text, I havent had such a good laugh for weeks, bad side being messing up the k-board with my breakfast milk.

You DO realize that there's a reason that people become upset with you, right?

However you do realize that when some self righteous holier-then-thou besserwisser calls you a pig in a slaughterhouse, calling me out on being insulting is kind of hypocritical?

Personally I find it rather amusing that there are people out there like our Czech friend here, who try really hard to be witty, insightful and intelligent when telling everyone how bad I am and how badly I insult people with my oh so obnoxious hate walls of text...all while writing such hate, abuse and insults themselves that would lead them to get an instant vacation on other boards.
Points for being the biggest hypocrite of the entire dakka community Jolrael.


And yes I do realize some people cant take me because of my personality. Bashing stupidity and bashing back bullies is one of my most noticable downsides...as well as also my biggest strength.

Here, have another example:

Let me summarize then :" You are wrong Pyriel. Completely. Waste another hour of hateful typing instead of actually learning anything or gaining any experience."

Sorry for the offtopic, hope it helps a bit...

Offensive, intrusive and insulting BUT at the same time oh so "helpful" and "sorry". I dont even know weather to laugh or cry and that´s a bad sign.

Wow, a sensitive Czech?!?! Where did you escape from, a zoo for endangered species?
Of you go and do something useful instead like helping fix the almost non existent road system in your country instead of being all self righteous, analytical,"helpful" and "sorry" on the internet.

Several warnings just sent.

There's no need for the level of rudeness displayed in this thread, if it continues this thread won't.

Do better people.

@ shep

Scout-shunting dreadknights... IDing TWC and laughing off missiles...

If you are going to throw a foil at grey knights... Don't try to do it with a space wolf army.


But twc can win and you can get melat ed or not get the charge cause their behind a rhino And have storm shields and my space wolves have 14 lascannons zap zap