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KingCracker wrote:Wait a second, your actually defending the stats/rules for Mephiston? Really? Hes a chapter master, THATS IT. Yet his rules look something like a fething Primarch. Thats going way over board if you ask me. Bad ass sure, a tuned up chapter master is fine. A Primarch in the making, no frigging way

If you're going to criticize rules/fluff, it might help to read into them a little more to gain some understanding before trying to make your point. He's not a "Chapter Master" and that's "NOT IT".

Mephistons statistics pretty much accurately represent what he is. Firstly, he's the Chief Librarian of the Blood Angels. Secondly, he's the only Blood Angel to have overcome the Red Thirst, doing so by mental fortitude alone while trapped underneath a ruin. This process awakened his dormant gene-seed, granting him exceptional strength and vigor. Thus, it is implied that by mastering the Red Thirst, along with his psychic potential, he inherited a portion of his Primarch's power and basically is his Primarch in the making. This has been his fluff since the character was introduced into the game.

insaniak wrote:To which Primarch rules are you comparing him?

Also this.

It should also be mentioned that M'Karr (the Daemon) has claimed that "Mephiston is already firmly on the path to Daemonhood", so interpret that as you will, as his statistics pretty much match a powerful Daemon Prince.

Ravendove wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Wait a second, your actually defending the stats/rules for Mephiston? Really? Hes a chapter master, THATS IT. Yet his rules look something like a fething Primarch. Thats going way over board if you ask me. Bad ass sure, a tuned up chapter master is fine. A Primarch in the making, no frigging way

If you're going to criticize rules/fluff, it might help to read into them a little more to gain some understanding before trying to make your point. He's not a "Chapter Master" and that's "NOT IT".

Mephistons statistics pretty much accurately represent what he is. Firstly, he's the Chief Librarian of the Blood Angels. Secondly, he's the only Blood Angel to have overcome the Red Thirst, doing so by mental fortitude alone while trapped underneath a ruin. This process awakened his dormant gene-seed, granting him exceptional strength and vigor. Thus, it is implied that by mastering the Red Thirst, along with his psychic potential, he inherited a portion of his Primarch's power and basically is his Primarch in the making. This has been his fluff since the character was introduced into the game.

insaniak wrote:To which Primarch rules are you comparing him?

Also this.

It should also be mentioned that M'Karr (the Daemon) has claimed that "Mephiston is already firmly on the path to Daemonhood", so interpret that as you will, as his statistics pretty much match a powerful Daemon Prince.

You've just explained it better than ward has.
I agree with all your points, just that why would he be T7, S7, ect?
From looking at the different primarch's rules, he is basically a primarch. He should be better than normal, just not THAT good.

Asuron wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Asuron wrote:...and I think we both can agree, he has written really awful codexes

Yeah... I don't think we can, actually.

But then, it's quite possible I just have lower expectations. I survived the transition from 2nd to 3rd edition. Codexes would have to plummet an awful long way to top that experience.

Wasn't around that era unfortunately lol
What was it like exactly?

To pick up on this little sub-thread, the shift between 2nd and 3rd ed. was the biggest this game has ever seen. It was the major paradigm-shift from a basically uncomfortably large Skirmish/pseudo-RPG game, to a more streamlined Small Unit Tactics game. From RT all the way through 2nd ed., the focus was on building small forces out of individually customizable models. The concept was sound, but they marketed it as a war game, and above about 1000 points, it became REALLY bogged down with all of the Multi-saving throws, and the weapon modifiers for saves, and the Psychic phase, etc.
Starting with 3rd. ed., the rules pretty much got gutted. The trend started to be more towards squad and unit strengths, as opposed to ultra-powerful characters. For example, in 2nd ed. the Avatar of Khaine could pretty easily kill all four Greater Daemons at once! In 3rd ed, he got completely castrated, and has only now begun to make a small comeback.
To answer your question more directly, with a new ruleset, came a new streamlined ethos for 'Fluff-building" This was around the time of the push to really expand the Black Library, so the bulk of the fluff shifted from the Codices to the Novels. A 2nd ed. codex was around the size of the current 5th ed, or perhaps a bit longer:100-200 pages. The 3rd ed. came out with roughly 35-40 page codices. Not really enough space was alloted for good, clean fluffyness.

Actually, to be honest, 2nd ed. was more like WHFB in it's play style than the current 40k rules. But, what works for monolithic blocks of core units does not work for the more free-flowing nature of 40k tactics.

I hope that sheds some light on things as they were in the good ol' days.

CATACLYSMUS wrote:Of course, those of us old enough to remember Rogue Trader to 2nd edition, the base storyline was changed dramatically! In RT, the Emperor was simply very old, thus needing the Golden Throne. It wasn't until about halfway through 2nd ed through 3rd ed that the Horus Heresy even entered the canon...
I don't think any of us have a problem with THAT fluff change!

I am that old.

The Horus Heresy was explored in detail in the Realm of Chaos books, back in the Rogue Trader times, 88 for Slaves and 90 for L&D, 2nd ed didn't come out until 93.

Asuron wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Asuron wrote:...and I think we both can agree, he has written really awful codexes

Yeah... I don't think we can, actually.

But then, it's quite possible I just have lower expectations. I survived the transition from 2nd to 3rd edition. Codexes would have to plummet an awful long way to top that experience.

Wasn't around that era unfortunately lol
What was it like exactly?

Imagine 6th ed came out next month. This new edition will change the way the game is played entirely. So much so that every single codex written up to this point is now invalid, even if it had just been released a month or 2 ago. And to top it off, the new Codex for each army will have 4-6 pages of fluff TOPS, no variations on how the list can be built(by SC alteration or what not), and every character lost a ton of options. In addition, what little humor there is left in the game and story was taken away altogether.

How would you feel?

That's about what happened in the shift. It's like the change from the 3.5 Chaos Codex to the current book, but on a scale of the entire game.

I feel bored to death with GW fluff period... I liked the genestealers generations thingy and xenology but the rest... argh cant assimilate that... so I take what I like and develop the universe and fluff I see fit for my race or armie... GW not specially competent at that and those who espect to much from GW should take a step back and try to search a diferent prespective.

NAVARRO wrote:I feel bored to death with GW fluff period... I liked the genestealers generations thingy and xenology but the rest... argh cant assimilate that... so I take what I like and develop the universe and fluff I see fit for my race or armie... GW not specially competent at that and those who espect to much from GW should take a step back and try to search a diferent prespective.

One of the best little bits of fluff that ever showed up in WD turned out to be ripped off from Terry Brooks...though I still think THE best fluff ever was the original Attack On Terra stuff.

Stormrider wrote:This thread makes my soul hurt. In a universe of total grimdark and inconcievable possibilities, you're complaining about stuff being a bit too unfeasible? Yeesh, it's not that bad.

Come talk to me when the strongest thing in your army just got turned into a little "kitty" because someone just carved his name into his chest.

I can see a Grey Knight driving off a Daemon Prince. I can see a Grey Knight bothering a Greater Daemon. I can even see a Grey Knight Hero standing up to, and foiling the plans of, a Daemon Primarch. CARVING HIS FETHING NAME INTO THE BIGGEST BADDEST THING IN THE GALAXY?! Not a chance.

GW board meeting:

Some Guy:"So, lets see the numbers on the current sales of the new 'Grey Knight' line. Hmmm, very impressive. It seems that the new box sets, especially the dreadknight are selling very well. It seems that certain Imperial Guard units are selling also, most specifically the Chimera and certain squads."

Some other guy:"Yes, it seems that players have been using imperial guard squads to convert 'Henchmen' from the GK codex."

Some OTHER other guy:"...but sir..."

Some Guy:"interesting. Make a note, begin steps for a 'Henchman' sprue so that gamers may convert IG squads easier....a single sprue....we'll say $36.00."

Some OTHER other guy:"...BUT SIR..."

Some other guy:"There has also been a slight upturn in the Aegis defence system box. This seems to be somewhat comparable to the upturn in Dreadnought sales. Possibly due to the lack of Autocannon models in the Dreadnought box sets...shall we perhaps add a dreadnought upgrade kit to the mix?"

Some OTHER other guy: "Sirs...PLEASE..."

Some guy: "No need, terrain box sets are selling poorly anyway. Increase sale price of Aegis defense system by 20% on next price increase. All future terrain sets to include possible vehicular upgrades and increase base price template by 30%."

Some OTHER other guy: "SIRS, I MUST INSIST YOU LOOK AT THIS REPORT!!"

Some guy:*yawning* "Yes yes, what data have you accumulated?"

Some OTHER other guy:"It seems that a certain group of gamers have started up a petition. It contains a significant amount of signatures and in my opinion may represent a sizeable amount of gamers that are threatening to quit the hobby if Matt Ward is not removed from the Codex Writing Staff."

*hushed boardroom laughter*

Some Guy: "Who is Matt Ward?"

Some Other Guy: "Sir, he is the author of the Grey Knight codex just released."

Some Guy: "I see. So, sales are up, but a group of gamers has a complaint about the writer responsible for a ruleset and fluff."

Some OTHER other guy:"Yes sir, that is correct. I think it may be wise to..."

Some Guy: "Place this Matt Ward on development of upcoming next marine codex "Blood Ravens", and slate him for "Tau" reboot."

Some OTHER other guy: "But sir, the gamers..."

Some Guy: "Yes yes, I was getting to them. Implement a range wide price increase. Have Jervis write some article in white dwarf under his forum addressing these issues."

Some other guy:"Very good sir." *smiling*

Some OTHER other guy thinking to himself: WTF

Deadshane1 wrote:Stuff and things

You're assuming that ANYONE on the board cares what we think.

Also, I doubt the board would pay attention to a online campaign and its "signatures". I don't even think they'd care about an actual write in campaign or written petition.

Y'know, the ones people tend to actually pay attention to when done.

Asherian Command wrote:

Karon wrote:We should get a crucify Andy Hoare and Phill Kelly petition too for what they did to my grey knights.

Phill Kelly didn't do anything O.o. And Andy Hoare was the editor, like most editors he probably just skimmed it.

My half-assed, overcosted Beastmen Armybook says "by Andy Hoare and Phil Kelly"

I don't give a feth if Andy Hoare was the editor. He should have told Phil Kelly, who I assume wrote it, that he was an asshat and to redo the points cost on the book. You're saying its okay for them to half-ass their job and not improve my position at all in being competitive for another 4 years?

Matt Ward did accomplish alot its just alot of gamers did not like what he did.
Anyway the Gray Knights codex all you have to do is not buy it. Its really that simple.

Slarg232 wrote:

Stormrider wrote:This thread makes my soul hurt. In a universe of total grimdark and inconcievable possibilities, you're complaining about stuff being a bit too unfeasible? Yeesh, it's not that bad.

Come talk to me when the strongest thing in your army just got turned into a little "kitty" because someone just carved his name into his chest.

I can see a Grey Knight driving off a Daemon Prince. I can see a Grey Knight bothering a Greater Daemon. I can even see a Grey Knight Hero standing up to, and foiling the plans of, a Daemon Primarch. CARVING HIS FETHING NAME INTO THE BIGGEST BADDEST THING IN THE GALAXY?! Not a chance.

thats the thing though isn't it.if you are making characters do things that are way overpowered compared to what even the most powerful have been able to do before then it kind of ruins the background.im pretty sure jes and the rest of the gw crew got a look at the grey knight codex before publication and should have sorted out the most glaringly obvious fubars.
thank you.

Slarg232 wrote:

Stormrider wrote:This thread makes my soul hurt. In a universe of total grimdark and inconcievable possibilities, you're complaining about stuff being a bit too unfeasible? Yeesh, it's not that bad.

Come talk to me when the strongest thing in your army just got turned into a little "kitty" because someone just carved his name into his chest.

I can see a Grey Knight driving off a Daemon Prince. I can see a Grey Knight bothering a Greater Daemon. I can even see a Grey Knight Hero standing up to, and foiling the plans of, a Daemon Primarch. CARVING HIS FETHING NAME INTO THE BIGGEST BADDEST THING IN THE GALAXY?! Not a chance.

Mortarian isn't a playable model, what are you going on about? Maybe Matt Ward can write the next Chaos codex so it will all be insane and OP.

The gesture of that action was one of insult, Draigo gave him a giant middle finger. He didn't kill him or even neuter him.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

CATACLYSMUS wrote:Of course, those of us old enough to remember Rogue Trader to 2nd edition, the base storyline was changed dramatically! In RT, the Emperor was simply very old, thus needing the Golden Throne. It wasn't until about halfway through 2nd ed through 3rd ed that the Horus Heresy even entered the canon...
I don't think any of us have a problem with THAT fluff change!

I am that old.

The Horus Heresy was explored in detail in the Realm of Chaos books, back in the Rogue Trader times, 88 for Slaves and 90 for L&D, 2nd ed didn't come out until 93.

I remember the Horus Heresy being introduced in Adeptus Titanicus in 1988.

40K first edition came out in 1987.

Kilkrazy wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

CATACLYSMUS wrote:Of course, those of us old enough to remember Rogue Trader to 2nd edition, the base storyline was changed dramatically! In RT, the Emperor was simply very old, thus needing the Golden Throne. It wasn't until about halfway through 2nd ed through 3rd ed that the Horus Heresy even entered the canon...
I don't think any of us have a problem with THAT fluff change!

I am that old.

The Horus Heresy was explored in detail in the Realm of Chaos books, back in the Rogue Trader times, 88 for Slaves and 90 for L&D, 2nd ed didn't come out until 93.

I remember the Horus Heresy being introduced in Adeptus Titanicus in 1988.

40K first edition came out in 1987.

Damn you guys are old (no offense). But I only by luck have that white dwarf which details all the horus hersey. And the original best lore GW has ever made. Like the First War of Armaggeddon and the Battle of Macragge the originals. I have it in my library. Damn I collect too much.

Yeah Epic had it from the get go, Space Marine had pics of six Taitor legions on one side of the box, and six loyalist on the other.

It's why I chuckle at the Legion of One Thousand on the Marine poster, because that was the Thousand Sons original colour scheme. Red with a black M on the pad.

Why would GW care about a few whiners doing a bit of talk which they can't back up ? Every whining forum is to do with battles and fights which are non-background related. EVERY battle me and my friends do has a background story. A good one too .

Luna Dragon wrote: Why would GW care about a few whiners doing a bit of talk which they can't back up ? Every whining forum is to do with battles and fights which are non-background related. EVERY battle me and my friends do has a background story. A good one too .

Probably because there was 150 Gamers. All Veterans. Yeah. I think that would send them a message.

Asherian Command wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

CATACLYSMUS wrote:Of course, those of us old enough to remember Rogue Trader to 2nd edition, the base storyline was changed dramatically! In RT, the Emperor was simply very old, thus needing the Golden Throne. It wasn't until about halfway through 2nd ed through 3rd ed that the Horus Heresy even entered the canon...
I don't think any of us have a problem with THAT fluff change!

I am that old.

The Horus Heresy was explored in detail in the Realm of Chaos books, back in the Rogue Trader times, 88 for Slaves and 90 for L&D, 2nd ed didn't come out until 93.

I remember the Horus Heresy being introduced in Adeptus Titanicus in 1988.

40K first edition came out in 1987.

Damn you guys are old (no offense). But I only by luck have that white dwarf which details all the horus hersey. And the original best lore GW has ever made. Like the First War of Armaggeddon and the Battle of Macragge the originals. I have it in my library. Damn I collect too much.

I have been looking around, and both of you are correct. I was a bit young then, so I didn't have access to the expansion books at the time. The first time I came across the HH was in 2nd ed. I stand recorrectimified.
But my basic Fluff-changing premise stands, dates notwithstanding.

Slarg232 wrote:

Stormrider wrote:This thread makes my soul hurt. In a universe of total grimdark and inconcievable possibilities, you're complaining about stuff being a bit too unfeasible? Yeesh, it's not that bad.

Come talk to me when the strongest thing in your army just got turned into a little "kitty" because someone just carved his name into his chest.

I can see a Grey Knight driving off a Daemon Prince. I can see a Grey Knight bothering a Greater Daemon. I can even see a Grey Knight Hero standing up to, and foiling the plans of, a Daemon Primarch. CARVING HIS FETHING NAME INTO THE BIGGEST BADDEST THING IN THE GALAXY?! Not a chance.

Didn't a Grey Knight captain banish Angron in the first Armageddon war, while his squad of terminators took on like half dozen Bloodthirsters? Although the dude(can't remember his name) died in the process, the precedent of a grey knight hero getting the best of a Daemon Primarch(in combat.. against the World Eaters daemon primarch) was set long ago*. I don't see whats so far fetched or lore breakingly egregious about a Grey Knight grand master personally banishing and then insulting a daemon primarch.


* I may be missing some details in that story, it was from White Dwarf from back when it didn't suck. If any details were omitted, please feel free to add to it!

OMG people have opinions, that differ to mine!

Seeing a lot of those put down, not adding anything to the discussion type responses here atm.

Myself, I don't have any massive issues with Ward, raised an eyebrow when I read in White Dwarf that he has worded it that Grey Knights use Sorcery and magic.

Just because it steps on stuff thats gone before, and the whole Thousand Sons getting a pretty severe slap on the wrist for doing so.
However its certainly not to the venom I've seen some folks have toward him.

I'd say from what he's done so far, he may have a slightly different view of the 40K universe than what I percieved in places. However so much has changed in the last twenty odd years, it mostly doesn't cause me to even bat an eyelid anymore.

Stormrider wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Stormrider wrote:This thread makes my soul hurt. In a universe of total grimdark and inconcievable possibilities, you're complaining about stuff being a bit too unfeasible? Yeesh, it's not that bad.

Come talk to me when the strongest thing in your army just got turned into a little "kitty" because someone just carved his name into his chest.

I can see a Grey Knight driving off a Daemon Prince. I can see a Grey Knight bothering a Greater Daemon. I can even see a Grey Knight Hero standing up to, and foiling the plans of, a Daemon Primarch. CARVING HIS FETHING NAME INTO THE BIGGEST BADDEST THING IN THE GALAXY?! Not a chance.

Mortarian isn't a playable model, what are you going on about? Maybe Matt Ward can write the next Chaos codex so it will all be insane and OP.

The gesture of that action was one of insult, Draigo gave him a giant middle finger. He didn't kill him or even neuter him.

And no marine should be able to insult a fething Daemon Primarch and live. That's crossing the line with the whole idea that the Primarchs are gods among gods, and not to be messed with.

- I have just removed a whole bunch of off-topic nonsense from this thread. Any further posts insulting posters for having the temerity to discuss something that you're not personally interested in discussing will likewise be removed and the poster dealt with accordingly. If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, just move on. -


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shrike wrote:From looking at the different primarch's rules, he is basically a primarch.

So, again... based on which Primarch rules?

There aren't any such rules for 40K that I'm aware of.

Not gods, but definitely int he arch-devil/archangel range

Carving a name into something's chest belongs in anime, unless the guy is prone and dead. It's hard to do cursive copperplate when they insist on twitching...

I've decided to take all marine fluff (i like most of the IG stuff) as being a tall stories contest arranged on fenris, with everyone blitzed on mead. The reality (pre mead) of any event is far less OTT..

Mead as a story-amplifier is an established scientific fact.

The Power Cosmic wrote:

And the best way is to vote with your dollar. Don't buy the books or models.

...Hehe...I'm a GW hater....Mostly their paints and supplies. I NEVER buy from GW direct, there never getting my money, I swear on that!

...But yeah..on topic, I can be a little fair, the whole team lets him do it...so...yep.

insaniak wrote:- I have just removed a whole bunch of off-topic nonsense from this thread. Any further posts insulting posters for having the temerity to discuss something that you're not personally interested in discussing will likewise be removed and the poster dealt with accordingly. If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, just move on. -


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shrike wrote:From looking at the different primarch's rules, he is basically a primarch.

So, again... based on which Primarch rules?

There aren't any such rules for 40K that I'm aware of.

Angron? Remember white dwarf?

Asherian Command wrote:Angron? Remember white dwarf?

Sure, I remember White Dwarf... That's the magazine that GW put out every month, that I stopped buying years ago due to the internet being a cheaper and much more exhaustive source of hobby inspiration

So, ok, that's one. Although after a quick hunt around (turns out the rules for Angron are up on the GW site now as well) it would appear that the problem here isn't going to be with any particular character being as powerful as Angron as with whoever wrote those rules for White Dward not really trying too hard to make him interesting.

Wasnt Angron not just another Bloodthirster in an Apocalypse formation?
I only remember vaguely that i thought about never ever using him .

Stormrider wrote:He didn't kill him or even neuter him.

He carved it INTO THE THING'S HEART. I think he killed it...