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insaniak wrote:
Everything you have been told is a lie.

I am a lie?
I am a lie NOOOOOOOOO. My chapter is a lie?
My army is a lie? My force is a Lie?
(Joking.)
Yeah I can see that, but its just his writing style bothers many people.

Oh for crying out loud, give it a rest.

[Edit, a few minutes later: http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/StopWhiningAboutMatt]

Ravendove wrote:Oh for crying out loud, give it a rest.

[Edit, a few minutes later: http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/StopWhiningAboutMatt]

What me? Nah. I am just complaining about complainers. I'm still going to buy the codex though I am going to black out the lore page talking about the sisters of battle.
I want to start a custodes army so the grey knights fluff ain't got Anything on me. So Muhahahahahaha.

Ravendove wrote:Oh for crying out loud, give it a rest.

[Edit, a few minutes later: http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/StopWhiningAboutMatt]

that one i'll sign. as insaniak stated, the new codex is a revision of both the previous fluff and rules and frequently change both. units that NEVER existed before *poof* just appear with 5,000 year backstories about how they're integral to the army portrayed in their codex. purely evil forces are given a lighter side and whitewashed good guys get some stains... its just how it works. the big complaints about GKs slaughtering SOB and smearing themselves with their pure blood goes perfectly with the other NON-ward fluff presented in the GK short story in Victories of the Space Marines where an innocent loyal imperial is slaughtered to sanctify EACH grey knight bolter ROUND (not the bolter, but each individual round!). its also not like this one writer disappears for a month and then secretly hands over his text to the printer directly while working for a publicly traded corporation; the work probably passes through multiple creative and corporate layers of approval so, even if you don't like it, it isn't right to demonize one person.

Is this pointed towards me? Because I am not signing any petition.
I dislike a few things about the codex but I will still buy. Hell I will probably only buy it because of my Adeptus Custodes force and to have Storm Raven rules.

Asherian Command wrote:Is this pointed towards me? Because I am not signing any petition.

Is the petition called StopWhiningAsherian? No? Then it's probably safe to say it was directed at the general tone of the thread.

Ravendove wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Is this pointed towards me? Because I am not signing any petition.

Is the petition called StopWhiningAsherian? No? Then it's probably safe to say it was directed at the general tone of the thread.

Mate. Watch your tone.

Murdock129 wrote:http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/StopMattWard/

As a result of the recent GK fluff I started this petition, deciding that enough's enough. I've put up with everything up to and including Necrons having a tea party with Blood Angels, but when he screwed over the Grey Knights I'd had enough, see here for further details on that:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/357650.page

Taking Gorgarak's advise I'm posting it here, we appreciate every signiture and hopefully something will be done about this, this time

I'd recommend that you put down something specific in that petition. ONE OR TWO issues that you'd want changed, not some sort of Pee on your leg shotgun blast like "We don't like you, you stink!"

What specificly, has Ward written that Pee's on your leg? What specificly has been changed that you don't like? I don't agree that a petition won't change things, just not your particular petition. When you are looking to change something this friggin big, you change it from small pushes, not by just a five second write down of oddball stuff about fire that guy because he's a tool, that really doesn't tell me a thing.

THEN you go and ask for the guys job? Why not try a little more suger in it, such as, TELLING THEM, " You guys made this particular model, THAT GUY, an army killer. We played fifty games, and THAT GUY killed everyone he played. We read through the RAW, and it doesn't make sense why THAT GUY can pee on my leg and roll through three armies alone like he did. Little Jimmie played THAT GUY's army and he practicly killed his cat over being beaten that badly. Hopw about you guys go back and relook THAT GUY rules?

At the end of the day,. they look over how many letters, E mails, and response they had to THAT GUY, and then pop out a couple of FAQ's about it. It happens, and then if it doesn't people really just tell them to Feth off, and end up not buying that particular THAT GUY, or his army.

Money talks, BS walks.

Me? I read the GK codex the first time and laughed my ass off when I gave it over to the guy standing next to me and had to ask him if that was serious or not. I stopped laughing when I saw how craptastic the guys looked when compared to regular Space Marines. I'm over GW's stupidity. Now I've got what I got, and it's looking like a pretty good sale pretty soon.

By now though dude, I don't even give them a second thought. I've got enough and then some, pretty much everyone but Eldar, and they sit quietly while I paint them. They are just figures at the end of the day, but In the REAL world? Yeah, we pretty much do what the other guy said, go see the guy in person, and sit down and have a rational conversation about something specific that you'd want to change. I wouldn't suggest punching him in the face. That doesn't work, anymore. You have to tell him what he did that resulted in losing the company over a million in hard earned coin, and what he can do to fix it. Personally? I like thier older games. The skermish games that they don't pay attention to, the ones they don't screw up.

Shotgun blasts about nerdrage don't cut it.

As for these other cats, yeah, you guys can blow the kid off, but in the grand scheme of things, he's P.O.'d about his game. Bottom line.
You looking down your nose at him like you're being oh so superior is the exact thing that crapped on GW's games in the first place. He's raging, you can either ignore it, or tell him something specific to push him in a more constructive direction.

What do YOU think he should do then, if his "Petition won't work"? What is his option, aside from just taking his minis, piling them in a box, slagging the whole thing and throwing it through his local game shops window?

GW is specificly KNOWN for getting newbs into the hobby, then pushing them away. What you fail to realize is that it is a buisness. THEY want to make money. WHAT would you buy, and what puts you off about them that you'd want to change? What about coustomer service? What about the shops themselves? What would you suggest them to do, or would you go to your local shop, and push to through the management?
Yeah, it's plastic crak, but when you outright tell them you'd spend 100,000 annually, and your club would spend 20,000 easily a month, THAT is the thing that people take notice to.

Me? I'd push a price reduction, aside from a realignment of the issue of the models in the box/ unit. I told my LGS's the same thing, and I've got money that I spend on anything other then GW that They see that goes to someone else. The result? We see a collective decrease in sales, we see a glutton of product sitting on the shelf, and we see my LGS putting up the things that I'm buying, the other three or four guys, and thier friends are getting into, and other games getting a boost in shelf space.

That guy that said that GW is making more money? Not here they arn't. They are losing money, and they have to continue to shapeshift to survive. One guy shops, removing products that were either losing sales, or just because they're stupid, or even just because to make new stuff you have to remove old, THAT stuff gets a reduced price to get off the shelf, and then you get the prices reduced. All the while, losing ground and less and less product getting reordered because of it. Want facts and figures? Look at thier quarterly earnings and the shell game that they continue to play with thier "realignments". Any gains are being masked by thier continuous shapeshifting stores, and thier overhead business costs. Personally? they need to just up and get out of the local store business, and leave it at a couple of Major store locations in major metro areas with large scale battle bunkers, where they run an official tourney scene, and push the costs on to the local markets that would easily return the favor in advertising and day to day operations. Trickle down approach, because those bleeding sores of stores are whats driving up the prices of the models in general.

Some say that online petitions don't work? I say they do, if they are specific, and have a point. You are making a petition about a multimillion doller project, you're not going to go far just telling them that it sucks, change it. You make little changes, and push buttons and make constructive point's that push the project in a positive direction.

The F'n genies out of the bottle, it's not going back in when it comes to the GK, or any other FOM newly released army that comes out of the gate.

If, for example, you have an issue that the army is unworkable, or a Powergamers wet dream, then put together a presentation with fact, figures, and a well written disposition and push the angle.
"Hey, our shop stopped playing GW games altogether because of the way in which you have started creeping the point system."" We, collectivly, spend over 100,000 bucks, and have nearly double that in other GW products that we've collectivly owned over the past three years." "I spend 100 bucks a week, and Tom, Dick, and Harry spend roughly 200 to 500 respectivly". Then you have tom put in a letter of his points, and the other guys get a page or two themselves. Together, your team sets up a petition setting the stage, putting together a counter proposal, and then you go gather over 100- 1,000 signatures, and add in how much each player spends, and where they play at.

You set the stage before the nerdrage. THEN you can add in some points of order, such as you posted the matter in Dakka, Your four nearest LGS's, and the local rag.
THAT makes you a player then, that makes you a part of something that might have a chance at some change.
Anything less, and you are just a countless voice, crying out in the night.

Your other option is to go find one of the guys that is one the major investors, and put in a well written word to them to speak on your groups behalf. Add in how much not doing so and so will cost in the long run, and point out that such and such is costing 123 amounts of money, and that XYZ would be a better option and make them 456 amounts.

And finally, you don't fall in love with the plan. Remember you are talking about a bunch of assclowns that day after day hear the same old same old. "Waghh waghh waghh!!!, We want more nubs!" They are pretty much conditioned at this point in time that the masses don't matter, and it's about making money. You want to help them? give them a serious, now s!@# discussion on whats wrong, and what might be a good fix for it.

THAT is how we do it in the real world, because just being a kid will get you kid stuff results.

Normally, I'd ignore this kind of a petiton, but you seem like you don't know any better, and these guys are taking pot shots and being trite.

Just my buck and a quarter.

Ever considered this is what GW wants too see? Maybe they really like his writings? Maybe thats the direction GW wants to go.
ITT: A petition that will amount to absolutely nothing like all thousands before it. Its been clearly proven GW doesn't care what you think. As Einstein defines it, Insanity is doing something over and over again knowing it will have the same result. Why keep making these threads?

Ravendove wrote:Oh for crying out loud, give it a rest.

This. I know gamer-nerds need a scapegoat to consistently and continually bash regardless as to the quality of the product released, but this is just getting ridiculous.

Oh, and online petitions probably won't even get past GW's spam filter, let alone be read by someone able to act upon it.

L. Wrex

- Removed. Play nice -

[sorry - pished]

...which is not an excuse to ignore the forum rules.

The problem is, even if this was to work, Matt Ward would leave with his pockets lined as it would be unfair dismissal, which isn't allowed in the UK.

So it is a lose/lose situation.

Put up with Ward or a massive price hike.

There was a point in time when codex fluff was good?

MikeMcSomething wrote:There was a point in time when codex fluff was good?

Yes it was called 4th ed and 3rd ed.

That's funny I read those books and I remember that they were all equally crappy. Every codex has maybe a gem or two hidden somewhere in the 20 pages of timelines nobody can remember after they put the book down and the phoned-in unit entry pages.

In fact, I'm willing to bet more people would sign a petition allowing them to purchase army books completely without fluff at a discount, than would sign one written about any given fluff topic/author/etc you could come up with.

MikeMcSomething wrote:That's funny I read those books and I remember that they were all equally crappy. Every codex has maybe a gem or two hidden somewhere in the 20 pages of timelines nobody can remember after they put the book down and the phoned-in unit entry pages.

I really liked 4th ed. And 3rd. Of course that was during the big world wide campaign stuff which made 40k alot of fun now its just blah....

alphaomega wrote:The problem is, even if this was to work, Matt Ward would leave with his pockets lined as it would be unfair dismissal, which isn't allowed in the UK.

So it is a lose/lose situation.

Put up with Ward or a massive price hike.

"Your work sucks and you're driving customers away" probably counts as legitimate reason for dismissal.

I like Matt Ward and/or Phil Kelly being the only two writers, its like GW giving us a personal gurentee that your codex is going to get better.

Speaking as a supposed "Fluff Nazi"...

The only things I take issue with from Matt Ward are the Jokaero and Daemonhosts being in the Grey Knights book and the Dreadknight concept.

He does some things over the top, sure. But there's really nothing that has struck me as flatout abusing the fluff.

I read the codex today.

As with the Blood Angels timeline, there is some childish and flimsy seeming fluff.

It reeks of being rushed out with no attention to detail.

I am wondering just how great the 'holy ward' of sisters slaughtered by the grey knights would be..? Coupled with the time travelling moon and the blood angel/necron 'strange bedfellows' thing, it's all just crappy writing.

Those folks looking for a 'move' in the fluff and alluded new directions are, I think, granting gw too much credit, I just think it was exceptionally poor fluff 'filler'.

The more this crud gets written for marines and their variants, the more convinced I become that MEQ is for kids...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I read the codex today.

As with the Blood Angels timeline, there is some childish and flimsy seeming fluff.

It reeks of being rushed out with no attention to detail.

I am wondering just how great the 'holy ward' of sisters slaughtered by the grey knights would be..? Coupled with the time travelling moon and the blood angel/necron 'strange bedfellows' thing, it's all just crappy writing.

Those folks looking for a 'move' in the fluff and alluded new directions are, I think, granting gw too much credit, I just think it was exceptionally poor fluff 'filler'.

The more this crud gets written for marines and their variants, the more convinced I become that MEQ is for kids...

Should we rewrite it then?

came across this by the way.

http://www.totalwargamer.co.uk/blog/?p=1123

insaniak wrote:

Squig_herder wrote:Has anyone ever considered that changes in fluff indicate a grander shift in game as a whole?

This.

What people seem to struggle with is the idea that a new codex for an existing army is not a sequel to what has come before. It's a revision. So it doesn't have top stick within the previously established boundaries... that would more or less defy the point of making the revision in the first place.

The whole point of revising a codex is to change things up a bit. Rules change to reflect the current state of the game and the current direction the design team want to move it in, and fluff changes along with it.

So in this edition, Grey Knights (along with pretty much everyone else) are a little less perfect that they had previously been made out to be. Next edition, who knows how they'll be portrayed... but however it turns out that portrayal will, by being included in the new, revised codex that details that army, be the 'correct' portrayal for that edition of the army.


It's also worth noting that GW don't consider their fluff to be 'hard' canon. Everything in the 40K universe is uncertain, and fluff is generally written from a certain perspective. There was a fantastic summation of this on the Black Library site a few years ago, in answer to the constant questions about whether or not BL books were considered canon and how that worked when there were so many contradictions or things that didn't fit into already established fluff... The answer essentially being that it's all 'canon'... but all being told from the specific point of view, and so any given piece of fluff might be 'true'... or it might be apocryphal, or biased by that point of view.

So yes... in this edition, a squad of Grey Knights once murdered a bunch of Batle Sisters, smeared their blood on their armour, and went on a rampage. Or did they?

Everything you have been told is a lie.

If the direction they are taking is invalidating the entire background by having characters perform feats of such insane ludicrousy, overshadowing what the Emperor himself could do , then what the hell kind of direction is that to take.
It destroys the consistency amongst the background FOR EVERY SINGLE RACE, by invalidating every action made by other characters and makes them look weak my comparison
Its not even written as propaganda either, its a statement of facts on what they did
How can you even defend that?
Dark Eldar is a change that is excellent
Not only does it keep the acts reasonable( excluding perhaps Vect) but its interesting and does things that creates a new view on the race as a whole
Previously they were essentially S and M Eldar, but look at them now

Compare that to The Emperor that Walks Draigo
Killing daemons in the warp where it should be close to impossible, because they are far satronger than they are in realspace there, even bloody terrifying them
Carving his name into a Primarchs heart, all by his lonesome

What exactly about that is good?
If you take away the background of the game and mutate it into this dreck, what do you have left?
Average to bad rules, expensive minatures that drive people away with the insane costs, are the only things left

Asuron wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Squig_herder wrote:Has anyone ever considered that changes in fluff indicate a grander shift in game as a whole?

This.

What people seem to struggle with is the idea that a new codex for an existing army is not a sequel to what has come before. It's a revision. So it doesn't have top stick within the previously established boundaries... that would more or less defy the point of making the revision in the first place.

The whole point of revising a codex is to change things up a bit. Rules change to reflect the current state of the game and the current direction the design team want to move it in, and fluff changes along with it.

So in this edition, Grey Knights (along with pretty much everyone else) are a little less perfect that they had previously been made out to be. Next edition, who knows how they'll be portrayed... but however it turns out that portrayal will, by being included in the new, revised codex that details that army, be the 'correct' portrayal for that edition of the army.


It's also worth noting that GW don't consider their fluff to be 'hard' canon. Everything in the 40K universe is uncertain, and fluff is generally written from a certain perspective. There was a fantastic summation of this on the Black Library site a few years ago, in answer to the constant questions about whether or not BL books were considered canon and how that worked when there were so many contradictions or things that didn't fit into already established fluff... The answer essentially being that it's all 'canon'... but all being told from the specific point of view, and so any given piece of fluff might be 'true'... or it might be apocryphal, or biased by that point of view.

So yes... in this edition, a squad of Grey Knights once murdered a bunch of Batle Sisters, smeared their blood on their armour, and went on a rampage. Or did they?

Everything you have been told is a lie.

If the direction they are taking is invalidating the entire background by having characters perform feats of such insane ludicrousy, overshadowing what the Emperor himself could do , then what the hell kind of direction is that to take.
It destroys the consistency amongst the background FOR EVERY SINGLE RACE, by invalidating every action made by other characters and makes them look weak my comparison
Its not even written as propaganda either, its a statement of facts on what they did
How can you even defend that?
Dark Eldar is a change that is excellent
Not only does it keep the acts reasonable( excluding perhaps Vect) but its interesting and does things that creates a new view on the race as a whole
Previously they were essentially S and M Eldar, but look at them now

Compare that to The Emperor that Walks Draigo
Killing daemons in the warp where it should be close to impossible, because they are far satronger than they are in realspace there, even bloody terrifying them
Carving his name into a Primarchs heart, all by his lonesome

What exactly about that is good?
If you take away the background of the game and mutate it into this dreck, what do you have left?
Average to bad rules, expensive minatures that drive people away with the insane costs, are the only things left

This is the smartest thing i have ever heard come from Patrick Star. I for one am getting rid of my 40K stuff, save the few models i like the looks of, and using that cash for fantasy and warmachine. I was going to wait until they made a new witchhunters/sisters of battle codex, but the way things are going, the leader of the Soroitas will singlehandedly close the eye of terror, beat Ghazkul in an arm wrestling match, teach the tau that her way is the right way, and turn the Tyranids into cute puppies that follow her around. No thanks.

+4000000
I agree with it. I love the fluff it is what makes me want to continue 40k.

@Asherian Command, well I personally am all for us re-writing the Grey Knights codex and will happily use a fan codex for them as in my eyes they're currently un-supported by Games Workshop, I refuse to accept that piece of trash as a codex. So yeah I'm behind any fan codexes made here. And that review sums it up quite well though he was generous with how many stars he gave it.

Asuron, you really have my respect after that speech. I feel you really summed up my feeling on this subject perfectly, without the fluff all we have is a game with not so great rules and over expensive models, and this Grey Knight fluff is just plain terrible.

Of course, those of us old enough to remember Rogue Trader to 2nd edition, the base storyline was changed dramatically! In RT, the Emperor was simply very old, thus needing the Golden Throne. It wasn't until about halfway through 2nd ed through 3rd ed that the Horus Heresy even entered the canon...
I don't think any of us have a problem with THAT fluff change!

CATACLYSMUS wrote:Of course, those of us old enough to remember Rogue Trader to 2nd edition, the base storyline was changed dramatically! In RT, the Emperor was simply very old, thus needing the Golden Throne. It wasn't until about halfway through 2nd ed through 3rd ed that the Horus Heresy even entered the canon...
I don't think any of us have a problem with THAT fluff change!

Really?
Okay. We need to find someone that can rewrite the gray knight fluff.


The fluff itself is horrible. The Rules I am fine with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guys, Can someone make a Grey Knight Rules thread and then make some lore and stuff? And make some proposed rules section.

Asherian Command wrote:

CATACLYSMUS wrote:Of course, those of us old enough to remember Rogue Trader to 2nd edition, the base storyline was changed dramatically! In RT, the Emperor was simply very old, thus needing the Golden Throne. It wasn't until about halfway through 2nd ed through 3rd ed that the Horus Heresy even entered the canon...
I don't think any of us have a problem with THAT fluff change!

Really?
Okay. We need to find someone that can rewrite the gray knight fluff.


The fluff itself is horrible. The Rules I am fine with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guys, Can someone make a Grey Knight Rules thread and then make some lore and stuff? And make some proposed rules section.

Hmm....I could try and give it a stab. Note: I deliberately do not read the WH40k novels out there so as to be "untainted" from the works of other writers, trying to find my own style using the barebone facts that wikis and general knowledge gives me.

Sending a PM with my current project for the Great Space Marine Swap.

Signed anyway

This thread makes my soul hurt. In a universe of total grimdark and inconcievable possibilities, you're complaining about stuff being a bit too unfeasible? Yeesh, it's not that bad.

The Grey Knights aren't perfect, they're incredibly pragmatic (just as the old Daemonhunters Codex was too, "blow up the planet of 10,000,000,000 to stop a daemon incursion yada yada). It's truly end justifies the means. Just as the Ultramarines are guilty of being prudes, Dark Angles are moody emos, Space Wolves are druken rouges and Blood Angels are vampiric metrosexuals. EVERY codex has some vice.

It could always be worse. At least you aren't picking bugs off of someone else to eat as your daily nutrition.