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I'm more and more inclined to think that this is just a repackage. GW probably just changed the print on the blister pack backing.

Resin and plastic models at this point are nothing more than hopes and dreams.

edit 4/21: Hmmm... I may be wrong after being enlightened on what all has been placed on "sell down" and is "out of stock".

oni wrote:I'm more and more inclined to think that this is just a repackage. GW probably just changed the print on the blister pack backing.

Or they may just be getting rid of blisters all together, and things are going to start being sent out in a baggy like they do with paints now.

Kanluwen wrote:

Lunchb0x wrote:

First...awesome avatar pic, where is it from? Now a slight correction, that, to me is huuuuge.

From the "Black Sepulchre" book for the Dark Heresy RPG.

Kanluwen wrote:
Basically: resin is more fragile, but holds detail better than metal/plastic.

I am sorry, but resin being fragile is true, but it does not hold better detail then plastic or metal. Plastic you can get a better amount of detail with then resin. The only problem with it is the cost. If you spend the money to have the molds properly tooled up, and in some cases polished, you can have a mold that will turn out a far superior product then anything even FW puts out. It all just boils down to the cost, and if a company wants to spend the money on it.

We'll have to agree to disagree here, because I've seen resin stuff that blows away the detail you'll see on plastic or metal.

Unless of course by "metal" you're counting photoetched pieces.

First : Thank you for the info on the pic .

Second : No , I am not counting Metal = photo etched. The reason why you dont see much with fantastic detail in plastic or pewter is due to the cost of tooling. Most companies dont want to pay the added cost to really get the fine detail out of them vs. the cost for detail as you would need for resin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Lunchb0x wrote:I am sorry, but resin being fragile is true, but it does not hold better detail then plastic or metal. Plastic you can get a better amount of detail with then resin. The only problem with it is the cost. If you spend the money to have the molds properly tooled up, and in some cases polished, you can have a mold that will turn out a far superior product then anything even FW puts out. It all just boils down to the cost, and if a company wants to spend the money on it.

The quality of many resin kits is just mindblowing, you can't achieve the same level of intricate detail with plastic or the undercut. Many of the best resin figures are in military ranges and they are a world apart from plastic kits. Plastic is very good but when you buy good resin you get a product that can't be equalled.

Are the companies that make the great resin military pieces large companies? Can they afford the thousands of dollars in tool and die to make one model, that may sell a couple hundred units? No they arent, so they go with the lower cost alternative which is resin. I can pay 10k for a plastic mold that will have equal amount of detail as resin, or I can opt to go the less expensive route and make a resin mold for about 500 and churn out enough pieces to make a profit. AGain, this all boils down to the cost, does the customer ( model company ) want to pay the cost to have fine detail plastic injection molds, or resin molds.

A switch to resin casts from china maybe? That would help to explain how it could possibly be a cost savings.

Edit: Dude you can't get equal detail out of plastic injection molding as you can resin. The tooling prohibits it.

Metal and resin can be cast in the same tools. but resin will flow better than metal (and more importantly for longer) so it will be able to pick up more intricate detailing. Resin is the most expensive to do on a per piece basis but has the least amount of capital involved. Metal is in the middle and plastic injection is the highest capital investment but the lowest piece part price. (at least it should be, this is the part I don't understand, could metal prices be so high that it outweighs the increased cycle time of resin? Doesn't seem likely to me)

as for detailing it also follows the same trend, resin has the highest detail metal in the middle and plastic the least. I agree with you that plastic is capable of picking up an equal amount of detail as resin, but the way the tooling works prohibits you from practically achieving the same amount of detail.

If they started manufacturing in China, the recasts would start appearing within weeks of the initial releases.

I thought they did FW in china already?

Honestly, I wouldn't mind plastic, or resin, or metal. Im used to all of them, I know how to work with all of them. The only thing i really care about is the price. They all have thier ups and downs, but they all at least look decent! As long as the price stays where it is or goes down, I will be happy.

Kanluwen wrote:

oni wrote:I'm more and more inclined to think that this is just a repackage. GW probably just changed the print on the blister pack backing.

Or they may just be getting rid of blisters all together, and things are going to start being sent out in a baggy like they do with paints now.

They have those generic white boxes that they sell the direct only stuff in. I could absolutely see all metal going to GW direct only.

oni wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

oni wrote:I'm more and more inclined to think that this is just a repackage. GW probably just changed the print on the blister pack backing.

Or they may just be getting rid of blisters all together, and things are going to start being sent out in a baggy like they do with paints now.

They have those generic white boxes that they sell the direct only stuff in. I could absolutely see all metal going to GW direct only.

Well the 'generic white boxes' are what they do for the boxed sets, right?

Baggies for everyone! Baggies for everyone!

MeanGreenStompa wrote:If they started manufacturing in China, the recasts would start appearing within weeks of the initial releases.

At least the stuff would be a lot cheaper.

asmith wrote:I thought they did FW in china already?

It was closed at the end of the last fiscal quarter...
They were loosing money on it.

oni wrote:They have those generic white boxes that they sell the direct only stuff in. I could absolutely see all metal going to GW direct only.

Why doesn't GW shut down all the their stores and sell everything direct only? Why even use independent retailers to market and sell their product? Every reason you give why they can't do either is the same reason why they can't move their entire metal range to direct only permanently.

In this case the antidotal and circumstantial evidence is overwhelmingly supporting a scenario where GW is temporality withdrawing items or warning retailers of limited stock on hand due a product conversion of some kind, be it packaging or material used in manufacturing. Also, what better way to draw down the stock of metal minis throughout the chain than to artificially inflate the sense of scarcity which is obviously at work already given the number of posts I have seen where individuals are indicating that they plan to “hurry up” and buy the metal minis before they are gone.

GW doesn't shut the shops because they are its principal marketing tool.

Tabletop wargaming is an aspirational and experiential hobby. Newcomers have to be shown how super a painted army and terrain looks, so they want to make one, and they have to be involved in a game to experience the excitement. This can only happen over the table top.

Outside the HHHobby, these things happen through the agency of veterans, friends and clubs. But also outside the HHHobby, it becomes clear that there is a huge and diverse tabletop hobby completely independent of GW and in many cases superior in terms of variety, and quality of models, rules, fluff, and price.

GW must recruit only through their own shops, in order to preserve the illusion that GW is the best and only game in town.

I just got an email from the Owner of my FLGS (a friend of mine) who told me none of my order I put in today could be processed because it is being *rebranded* Those are words out of the mouth of the biggest supplier in Canada.

My FLGS also does Direct order stuff through the store and is also not able to get a hold of any of the direct order items either.....

Either plastic or resin wouldn't bother me... I just want to be able to buy the damn stuff lol.

One this I did notice last night tho was that GW's prices on their web site for all their pewter range seem to have dropped slightly.... unless of course I'm crazy and seeing things..

regardless I hope all goes well.

The order I made to GWUK had 'discounted' next to everything I ordered that was metal. That might have been the reduction of VAT for non-UK customers though. Not 100% certain.

I'm waiting to hear the voice of someone I trust on the matter (AKA mikhaila after he's made his call)

1) We all know the general age customer GW targets.

2) We all know resin is more hazardous than Plastic or Metal

3) I can see it now , GW getting sued for not issuing protective gears / masks to customers that worked on their project in the GW store
or
parents seeing such gears says "no to warhammer " to Timmy because its too dangerous to him.

I would say no , GW isnt switching metal to resin. However , its not impossible for some future kits to be resin ( but not as purpose to replace metal as manufacturing material )

LunaHound wrote:1) We all know the general age customer GW targets.

Actually, we don't. You know why?
They don't target a "general age". They target a "general personality" which tends to act like that age.

2) We all know resin is more hazardous than Plastic or Metal

Plastic is just as harmful as resin if you don't read the safety list. People are constantly talking about how they're "setting their painted models on fire" to add weathering--which is far more harmful to you than sanding an infantry model with no mask on.

3) I can see it now , GW getting sued for not issuing protective gear / masks to customers that worked on their project in the GW store

Anyone who works on a model in a shop is running a risk to GW and their own lives. Knives, clippers that can break under tension and embed a length of steel spring in a jugular, etc.
It doesn't happen, but it could.

You've got to understand that there's multiple ways that resin can be cast.
The way that FW does it is one of the most barebones ways possible when it comes to how much the customer ends up doing afterwards. Many companies will remove the pour blocks, etc themselves--but that requires a huge set up that FW doesn't have.
Those pour blocks are the biggest offender for the "dust" kicked up and mentioned by myself and others. You're going to spend a fair amount of time sawing through that on the majority of FW models(which are large vehicle or monster kits with many bulky pieces), which generates a lot of dust.

But if you compare that to the smaller stuff such as the Krieg or Elysian models--you're not going to be doing much, if any, sanding or filing. Many of the parts can be removed with simple clippers and/or a knife blade while exercising some care.

or
parents seeing such gears says "no to warhammer " to Timmy because its too dangerous to him.

Were the Ork Barricade or Citadel basing kits "too dangerous" to Theoretical Timmy?

Because those are resin. The Helm's Deep Wall set for LOTR was resin. It wasn't "dangerous to Theoretical Timmy" either.

Removed to abide agreement

LunaHound wrote:Way to add the extreme case of "lighting plastic on fire" when we are comparing how we "normally" work with plastic vs resin.
Sounds like a desperate attempt to even the 2 , but hey thats your opinion.

It's really not. You don't need to actually have a "flaming model" for it to be harmful.
Even just a few seconds of exposure to melting plastic while you're not wearing a respirator/dust mask or operating in a well-ventilated area (like you should be when airbrushing, priming, using cyanoacrylate, Squadron Filler or even Testor's plastic cement that isn't clearly labeled "Non-Toxic" as they all have carcinogenic fumes like resin dust does) is a potential health hazard.

And with how often people are asking "can I set my model on fire" in P&M--I don't think it's really an "extreme case" at all.

Given the recommended age for plastic models is 12 and resin is 14 I think it's fair to say that overall resin is more of a health risk than metal or plastic minis and anyone claiming they are equal in health risk is either not being honest, misinformed, or skewing the facts.

blaktoof wrote:Given the recommended age for plastic models is 12 and resin is 14 I think it's fair to say that overall resin is more of a health risk than metal or plastic minis and anyone claiming they are equal in health risk is either not being honest, misinformed, or skewing the facts.

The point has basically flown over your head, Blaktoof.

Anything can be a health risk if you don't properly prepare for it.

As has been detailed before, resin can be done in such a way that even Theoretical Timmy can work with it and not be subject to any kind of "health risk".

Well the child safety agencies in the us and uk say resin is more of a health risk....

Yes it can be done in such a way to be safe, but it requires geneally more precautions than using non toxic glue with plastics or metals.

The point did not pass over my head.

It has been deemed by two of the major countries by government agencies using scientific facts that resin is not as safe as plastics, which is the point I was making.

Can resin be safe to work with? Yes.

Claiming anything can be s health risk if used improperly is true but not rally a valid statement as it's not really comparing the general common assembly of the two different materials. This common general assembly ; cleaning, filing, gluing has been deemed to be less dangerous regarding plastics and metals than resin

Which is a factual truth

Kanluwen wrote:It's really not. You don't need to actually have a "flaming model" for it to be harmful.
Even just a few seconds of exposure to melting plastic while you're not wearing a respirator/dust mask or operating in a well-ventilated area (like you should be when airbrushing, priming, using cyanoacrylate, Squadron Filler or even Testor's plastic cement that isn't clearly labeled "Non-Toxic" as they all have carcinogenic fumes like resin dust does) is a potential health hazard.

The point is that you compared setting stuff on fire to sanding your models.

If your point is seriously "Hey, at least it's not setting stuff on fire in an enclosed space!" that's not really saying much.

MikeMcSomething wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:It's really not. You don't need to actually have a "flaming model" for it to be harmful.
Even just a few seconds of exposure to melting plastic while you're not wearing a respirator/dust mask or operating in a well-ventilated area (like you should be when airbrushing, priming, using cyanoacrylate, Squadron Filler or even Testor's plastic cement that isn't clearly labeled "Non-Toxic" as they all have carcinogenic fumes like resin dust does) is a potential health hazard.

The point is that you compared setting stuff on fire to sanding your models.

Notice what I put in parentheses. That stuff is all far more harmful to you than forgetting to wear a mask once when sanding some resin.

The reason they suggest protection working on FW stuff is that most of the kits they sell are big with big attachment points that need to be sanded/sawed through.
And if people don't want to wear masks--just work with the stuff submerged in water. No dust produced, at all.
There's ways to negate that whole "dust" thing, if people would actually take the time to do some research.

If your point is seriously "Hey, at least it's not setting stuff on fire in an enclosed space!" that's not really saying much.

It doesn't even have to be "in an enclosed space". Burning or melting plastic, period, is a silly thing to do. It's far more hazardous to your health than resin will ever be.

Blaktoof wrote:Well the child safety agencies in the us and uk say resin is more of a health risk....

They also say Tic Tacs are a choking hazard. And that Doritos can tear a hole open in your windpipe. Heck, weathering powders are safety hazards too.

Yes it can be done in such a way to be safe, but it requires generally more precautions than using non toxic glue with plastics or metals.

The reason resin, at least in Forge World's case, requires "more precautions" is a very simple one, which I've emphasized time and time again.
The way that their models and the models themselves are done in such a way that it assumes that the person working on it is an experienced modeler who's worked with resin before and knows what they are doing.
The baggies that FW stuff comes in and the instructions(laughably calling them this btw) they include with the kit both in no uncertain terms stress that you must take proper safety precautions when working on the stuff.

The point did not pass over my head.

It has been deemed by two of the major countries by government agencies using scientific facts that resin is not as safe as plastics, which is the point I was making.

Can resin be safe to work with? Yes.

Claiming anything can be s health risk if used improperly is true but not really a valid statement as it's not really comparing the general common assembly of the two different materials.

Anything can be a health risk if used improperly or being done with no knowledge of it.
Driving a car is a health risk.
Eating food is a health risk.
Drinking a drink with ice is a health risk.

I've worked with resin for almost a decade, since I was 13 years old.
I did my research before I started doing it. There's no reason, whatsoever, that an adult or other people in that age bracket cannot do the same thing.

This common general assembly ; cleaning, filing, gluing has been deemed to be less dangerous regarding plastics and metals than resin

Which is a factual truth

What glue are you using? How did you clean the model? What plastic are you working with? What metals are you working with?
These things all affect the "danger" factor.

Get rid of all metal, go all resin, move production to china.

All problems solved.

Well going Direct Only isn't the worst thing that could happen. After some discussion at the FLGS with one of the staff, we agreed it wouldn't actually save that much shelf space at all, given blisters are diminuitive compared to plastic kits, and that small rack space they occupy couldn't be utilized for much more than blisters themselves.

Kanluwen wrote:It doesn't even have to be "in an enclosed space". Burning or melting plastic, period, is a silly thing to do. It's far more hazardous to your health than resin will ever be.

Did you completely miss the point on purpose or did it just happen to slip by you when you were making your 15,000th half-page multi-multiquote monument to chewing up screen real estate?

MikeMcSomething wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:It doesn't even have to be "in an enclosed space". Burning or melting plastic, period, is a silly thing to do. It's far more hazardous to your health than resin will ever be.

Did you completely miss the point on purpose or did it just happen to slip by you when you were making your 15,000th half-page multi-multiquote monument to chewing up screen real estate?

No, I ignored your point because it was pretty much a non-issue.

I didn't say anything about "setting fire to plastic in an enclosed space". I simply said that burning or melting plastic is just as hazardous to your health as resin dust is.

I'll also point out that you ignored my parenthetical list of things that are, just like burning/melting plastic and resin dust, hazardous to your health and chock full of carcinogens.

Kanluwen wrote:I didn't say anything about "setting fire to plastic in an enclosed space"

Kanluwen wrote:Even just a few seconds of exposure to melting plastic while you're not wearing a respirator/dust mask or operating in a well-ventilated area

Emphasis mine. I shouldn't *have* to provide emphasis, but hey, I'm not the one that forgot about something I just typed.

Look, I understand you usually embody the "XTREEEEEEEEEEME DEVILS ADVOCATE!!!!!!" position but seriously...several people have posited that resin has a history of being more dangerous than the inert metal that GW's minis are currently made out of, and one of your comebacks was "Eating food is dangerous too!" - at some point you start to occupy such a bizarre extreme end of the spectrum that whatever valid point you might be trying to make (presumably that if you handle forgeworld's particular mix of resin well it's not dangerous, a task that, whether you like admit it or not, has a higher threshold for competent performance) is completely lost in the white noise you generate.