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Fulgrim, for not thinking that there may be something a bit iffy about a talking sword.

RayvenQ wrote:Fulgrim, for not thinking that there may be something a bit iffy about a talking sword.

I concur.

It was just a bit ... dumb.

I really liked the old way that Horus got Fulgrim on side, the novel really ruined it for me and seemed to cheapen Fulgrims corruption.

The third GK novel

RayvenQ wrote:Fulgrim, for not thinking that there may be something a bit iffy about a talking sword.

Yup I agree as well

KingDeath wrote:Some of the Imperial Armour whines are pretty silly. Oh noes, the Imperium loses a badly planned, underequiped crusade against a well prepared foe on Taros ( and no, bad luck played only a small part in this campaign, the lack of avaiable regiments and resources was more important)! Oh noes! The Siege of Vraks is so unrealistic because...erm...the Emprah's forces there need more than a bunch of Spessmehreens to win! /o\

- and my absolute favourite: "Let no good deed go unpunished, let no evil deed go unrewared"...*shudder*, poor Chaos players :(

Is that last one actually real?

I agree with you about the IA books, I think they are great and quite 'logical' for the most part. I thought the Taros campaign book showed well why the Imperium is gradually falling apart, it is just too big!

Brother Coa wrote:To me it's the Taros campaign. The amount of disorganization between the Imperial troops was so great that mid-eval army could defeat them. And they even have Space Marines that they use completely wrong...

I'm interested to know why you thought that? A lightning-strike orbital strike to get hold of the Imperial governor, and the jump pack equipped troops attacking the AA installation. Surely that is exactly how Space Marines would be used, they don't have the numbers for massive wars of attrition so they would have to be used where their fighting prowess can be most effective (i.e. in high priority missions)

JamesMclaren123 wrote:The third GK novel

It was a bit strange but i was okay with it...
I think most people would have objected to the 2nd one more...

Pacific wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:To me it's the Taros campaign. The amount of disorganization between the Imperial troops was so great that mid-eval army could defeat them. And they even have Space Marines that they use completely wrong...

I'm interested to know why you thought that? A lightning-strike orbital strike to get hold of the Imperial governor, and the jump pack equipped troops attacking the AA installation. Surely that is exactly how Space Marines would be used, they don't have the numbers for massive wars of attrition so they would have to be used where their fighting prowess can be most effective (i.e. in high priority missions)

I am not talking about that, that was the only good use of SM. Except the first one - they are not assassins. You are sending assassin when you want Governor to be removed. They had more SM to use in the campaign, they didn't. They had more Guard Regiments on their way, they didn't wait. They didn't engage Tau fleet in space, even if Imperial ships where still superior than Tau then ( they are still now, but Tau have some new toys ). They didn't protect their flanks or supply convoys. They use Elysians to protect refinery, they are build for fast and short strikes not to defend fortified positions. And Tau had overwhelm them like 5:1, and they even hire Human mercenariness to fight them.

Taros was everything that can go wrong during military operation. Tau have more luck with this thing than Allies on D-Day ( they pick day when in the same time Romel was away, Hitler was sleeping, weather was fine and when Panzer companies went from shore for maintenance ). Taros is the stupidest thing I have ever hear in Warhammer 40000, ok for Democles but Taros.... .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pacific wrote:
I agree with you about the IA books, I think they are great and quite 'logical' for the most part. I thought the Taros campaign book showed well why the Imperium is gradually falling apart, it is just too big!

Except for that victory and Democles, Tau have nothing. Imperial victories: Gravalax Incident, Nimbosa Crusade, Zeist Campaign, Kronus campaign, Kaurava campaign, Targa, Lagan.
And the fact that a minor Hive fleet Gorgon cause so much damage to Tau ( everal Tau trading partners, Sha'draig, Ka'mais ( where they invited Necrons to party), Roksh, Several Tau trading fleets in the system, secret Tau listening post on Roksh XVI ) It was finally stooped at Kel'shan, with the help from the IMPERIUM, and they beat it even Imperium had "gradually fall apart".

I can't even imagine Tau engaging Behemoth or Levithian...

Pacific wrote:
I agree with you about the IA books, I think they are great and quite 'logical' for the most part. I thought the Taros campaign book showed well why the Imperium is gradually falling apart, it is just too big!

I generally like Imperial Armor. I liked Siege of Vraks. However, Taros I still hold is ridiculous, and the Tau were lucky as hell. The Imperium knows the Tau's biggest advantage in space is their small craft, so why did they engage the Tau in a situation that made their defenses against small craft weaker? More importantly, the Imperium had space superiority (if not air). How hard would it have been to track where the Tau were going from space and then blast their air bases from low orbit? And the Mantas! Why did the Imperial never try to intercept the Mantas?

Not to mention some of the things were also bad. A squad of Storm Troopers being wiped out by a single Tau turret? I do admit that the Tau were intelligent, and used their advantage of speed and manuverability to the utmost, however I can't help but feel that the Imperials were just being stupid.

I'm interested to know why you thought that? A lightning-strike orbital strike to get hold of the Imperial governor, and the jump pack equipped troops attacking the AA installation. Surely that is exactly how Space Marines would be used, they don't have the numbers for massive wars of attrition so they would have to be used where their fighting prowess can be most effective (i.e. in high priority missions)

THe initial use of Space Marines was appropriate. An assassin was unavailable at the time, so they used Space Marines, not expecting the Tau to be there in such force. They used Marines to take out the missile silo, also entirerly appropriate. However, once the main battle was joined, they never used the Marines. They could have used the Thunderhawks to engage the Mantas, at least. They could have used the Marines to clear the mountain the Kroot held instead of sending in waves of Guardsmen to get slaughtered. They could have used the Marines like the Tau used their raiding forces to hit enemy airbases and fuel reserves. Yes, the Tau had the advantage in that they weren't holding their ground, but the Imperium had to have known where Tau instillations were, just from orbital scans.

I mean, Operation Koronet...don't you think that would have been PERFECT for the Marines? And the assassination attempt? Why just send an Eversor and a couple Storm Trooper squads when you have some 3 odd companies of Marines hanging out with you? The imperium didn't use its available assets to their full potential, I think this is clear.

#1: BA and Necron teamup

#2: BA and Necron Teamup

#3: BA and Necron Teamup

#4: Mortarion being owned by Draigo

The fact that Chaos hasn't defeated the empire yet is the most idiotic thing. They have the resources, the power and the will, yet they get metaphorically curbstomped every time >

Samus_aran115 wrote:The fact that Chaos hasn't defeated the empire yet is the most idiotic thing. They have the resources, the power and the will, yet they get metaphorically curbstomped every time >

It's a well known phrase old as hell: "Bad guys always lose"

Samus_aran115 wrote:The fact that Chaos hasn't defeated the empire yet is the most idiotic thing. They have the resources, the power and the will, yet they get metaphorically curbstomped every time >

They're the only faction smaller and more insignificant than Space Marines, and most of their efforts are directed against one another in fratricidal war or personal power struggles.

Brother Coa wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:The fact that Chaos hasn't defeated the empire yet is the most idiotic thing. They have the resources, the power and the will, yet they get metaphorically curbstomped every time >

It's a well known phrase old as hell: "Bad guys always lose"

From a GW perspective they obviously need them to lose. However from a fluff perspective Chaos has the galaxy right where it wants it. I honestly don't believe the gods of chaos wanted Horus to win.......

You know what would be the most idiotic thing in 40k if ever happened?

Bar on some Hive World. Two men are sitting and drinking...
The third one comes in and they ask him to join them ( since there is no more room at the bar because the bar is crowded ).
Guy 1: Hello friend, what can I get you?
Guy 3: Nothing thanks, I just need a information...
Guy 2: What friend?
Guy 3: Where is nearest Amninistratinum office, I want to sing as a local clerc.
Guy 1: Good for you, we can never have to much of these guys. Say, why did you want to become a clerk?
Guy 3: I just wanted to run away from the Guard, I have weapons and war. In fact - I am allergic to it.
Guy 2: Oh, that's nothing strange here. Lot's of folks coming here from the frontier worlds to seek peace and to get away from all that fighting.
Guy 1: Praise the Emperor for leading them here, in his name...
Then the two guys drink the beer in one second. After that the first guy ask the new guy...
Guy 1: Say, new guy. What world are you from?
Guy 3: Oh, I am a Cadian...

purplefood wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:The third GK novel

It was a bit strange but i was okay with it...
I think most people would have objected to the 2nd one more...

I quite liked the 2nd one, i thought the idea of battleing a deamon infested STC was a good idea, but i think Ben Counter could have picked something slightly more inconspicuous (i hope thats how you spell it) the the pure titan STC and it was increadibly movie marine but hey.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:The third GK novel

It was a bit strange but i was okay with it...
I think most people would have objected to the 2nd one more...

I quite liked the 2nd one, i thought the idea of battleing a deamon infested STC was a good idea, but i think Ben Counter could have picked something slightly more inconspicuous (i hope thats how you spell it) the the pure titan STC and it was increadibly movie marine but hey.

I think people disliked the bit where he tricked the STC into thinking it was a daemon so that he could kill it with his daemon killing powers...

purplefood wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:The third GK novel

It was a bit strange but i was okay with it...
I think most people would have objected to the 2nd one more...

I quite liked the 2nd one, i thought the idea of battleing a deamon infested STC was a good idea, but i think Ben Counter could have picked something slightly more inconspicuous (i hope thats how you spell it) the the pure titan STC and it was increadibly movie marine but hey.

I think people disliked the bit where he tricked the STC into thinking it was a daemon so that he could kill it with his daemon killing powers...

yeah that bit was quite naff but i think the book as a whole was better than that small lack of judgment in the trickery department

I haven't read it...
Read the other 2 though...

It's quite good (my favourite out of the 3 anyway, the last one sucks ),

Revenent Reiko wrote:It's quite good (my favourite out of the 3 anyway, the last one sucks ),

Spoiler:

and IMO he didn't 'trick' the STC into realising, he made it remember that it had been 'possessed' (or the equivalent STC variant)

It is still a bit dodgy...
If it was possessed then it shouldn't matter and his daemon killing schtick should work.
If it wasn't possessed then it shouldn't work no matter how hard it believes it is possessed.

purplefood wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:It's quite good (my favourite out of the 3 anyway, the last one sucks ),

Spoiler:

and IMO he didn't 'trick' the STC into realising, he made it remember that it had been 'possessed' (or the equivalent STC variant)

It is still a bit dodgy...
If it was possessed then it shouldn't matter and his daemon killing schtick should work.
If it wasn't possessed then it shouldn't work no matter how hard it believes it is possessed.

Yeah i know, theres definitely some ambiguity in that

Revenent Reiko wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:It's quite good (my favourite out of the 3 anyway, the last one sucks ),

Spoiler:

and IMO he didn't 'trick' the STC into realising, he made it remember that it had been 'possessed' (or the equivalent STC variant)

It is still a bit dodgy...
If it was possessed then it shouldn't matter and his daemon killing schtick should work.
If it wasn't possessed then it shouldn't work no matter how hard it believes it is possessed.

Yeah i know, theres definitely some ambiguity in that

Spoiler:

because it cant remember its a daemon, it 'isn't'. Stupid i know, but it does 'gain' daemonic gifts when it 'remembers' what it is.

And that is why the people hate it so...

Myself included, even a throw away explanation at the end would have removed some of the hate IMO, but no...

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:The third GK novel

It was a bit strange but i was okay with it...
I think most people would have objected to the 2nd one more...

I quite liked the 2nd one, i thought the idea of battleing a deamon infested STC was a good idea, but i think Ben Counter could have picked something slightly more inconspicuous (i hope thats how you spell it) the the pure titan STC and it was increadibly movie marine but hey.

The Grey Knights books were: "Alaric the SUPER IDEALISTIC INDIVIDUAL Gray Knight fights daemons with the powers of FRIENDSHIP AND IMAGINATION!"

The first has him defeat the "mile tall daemon prince" by screaming a string of gibberish at it, which he memorized from the transcription of a traitor's mad gibberings (even ignoring the "how did he memorize the whole thing, because she was killed in the middle of saying it and it was stated to contain sounds that a human mouth couldn't form in the first place, and so couldn't actually be transcribed on account of there not being symbols to represent them" thing, he decided that the ramblings of a warp-maddened traitor were a good thing to memorize?), and in the second he kills an STC by pretending it's a daemon so hard that he convinces it to pretend to be a daemon too. I didn't bother reading the third one.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:The third GK novel

It was a bit strange but i was okay with it...
I think most people would have objected to the 2nd one more...

I quite liked the 2nd one, i thought the idea of battleing a deamon infested STC was a good idea, but i think Ben Counter could have picked something slightly more inconspicuous (i hope thats how you spell it) the the pure titan STC and it was increadibly movie marine but hey.

The Grey Knights books were: "Alaric the SUPER IDEALISTIC INDIVIDUAL Gray Knight fights daemons with the powers of FRIENDSHIP AND IMAGINATION!"

The first has him defeat the "mile tall daemon prince" by screaming a string of gibberish at it, which he memorized from the transcription of a traitor's mad gibberings (even ignoring the "how did he memorize the whole thing, because she was killed in the middle of saying it and it was stated to contain sounds that a human mouth couldn't form in the first place, and so couldn't actually be transcribed on account of there not being symbols to represent them" thing, he decided that the ramblings of a warp-maddened traitor were a good thing to memorize?), and in the second he kills an STC by pretending it's a daemon so hard that he convinces it to pretend to be a daemon too. I didn't bother reading the third one.

Im not pretending the GK novels weren't fanboy fiction, but:

We just tried to hammer out the inconsistencies of the 2nd book if you didnt read it. And dont read the 3rd one, trust me, its not worth it.

Super idealistic?

Alaric: The Grey Knights' very own Hawkeye.

Revenent Reiko wrote:the 'string of gibberish' was the Deamons true name, which (when spoken so soon after his entry into this plane) destroyed him/it.
it would have been transcribed phonetically, thats the point of an alphabet, you can use letters to make sounds.
the 'ramblings of a warp-maddened traitor' were exactly the opposite of that! The whole point was that she wasn't a traitor but only Alaric realised that and trusted her.it.

Technically repeating it scared it into laying down so he could poke it with a meter of pointy metal that had somehow managed to kill it before.

Something can't be phonetically transcribed if it contains sounds outside the system's description, and the Inquisitor was killed before finishing it regardless; in all likelihood such a thing would have been transcribed merely as "[unintelligible gibbering]".

Given the limited knowledge he possessed and his in-universe perspective, there was exactly no reason to trust her at that point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:Super idealistic?

Spoiler:

In the first book he knows most of his brothers are going to die and accepts it.
He also crashes the ship into the planet killing thousands.
In the third book he abandons ship and gets another couple of thousand people killed.
He also abandons his post allowing those same people to be taken captive in the first place.

He's idealistic by in-universe standards, especially by Space Marine standards, and even more so by Gray Knight standards. Also the whole "fighting daemons with the power of FRIENDSHIP AND IMAGINATION" thing. It's like "My Little Gray Knight: Friendship is Magical".

Taros campaign... anyone with half a brain could have lead the imperium to victory but instead the imperial commanders make a dumb mistake after dumb mistake.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Spoiler:

the 'string of gibberish' was the Deamons true name, which (when spoken so soon after his entry into this plane) destroyed him/it.
it would have been transcribed phonetically, thats the point of an alphabet, you can use letters to make sounds.
the 'ramblings of a warp-maddened traitor' were exactly the opposite of that! The whole point was that she wasn't a traitor but only Alaric realised that and trusted her.it.

Technically repeating it scared it into laying down so he could poke it with a meter of pointy metal that had somehow managed to kill it before.

Something can't be phonetically transcribed if it contains sounds outside the system's description, and the Inquisitor was killed before finishing it regardless; in all likelihood such a thing would have been transcribed merely as "[unintelligible gibbering]".

Given the limited knowledge he possessed and his in-universe perspective, there was exactly no reason to trust her at that point.

There is a reason i put that in a Spoiler tab. it is a Spoiler for people who haven't read it.