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Manchu wrote:@CaptainJack: I think we may be the only two people on Dakka who own Cutlass! so far. (One of us has to review it soon!) I'd guess we bought it for the same reason. The point wasn't to replace GW but rather to sample other things. That's the same reason I tried to start WarMachine and may eventually actually start it. As it stands, I feel there are better "other games" for me. I deeply sympathize with anyone currently priced out of GW who doesn't care for PP's stuff or the historicals. Yes, there is more than ever before but aside from GW and PP there's still a long way to go.

oh, no. I have it. Mine came the other day.

Want to know what it reminds me of? FUN. a basic no shill collecting game without a bunch of gak.



As to the point in question, I can see how PP's game can turn some off. I only play with small armies, I play one offs, and I don't get into the whole Pdg 5 thinking and mentality that some drones get. I like malfaux, but not to the point of getting all of the armies like in some of the games I've gotten hooked into. I basicly have a copuple of gangs and I'll leave it at that.

Historicals are thier own ball of wax. There are so many out there, that it isn't even funny. 15mm, 1/72, 25mm, heroic 32mm, 1/54, 54mm, etc.etc. etc.

You can even go back and pick up a few Avalon Hill games and play with chits.


Bottom line to you though, I can sympathise with the disillusion, but don't lose hope on GW. You can always pull out the Specialist Games and have one offs, or even go second hand and pull out stuff that no one wants, and step back in time and get those guys that were love children once. You don't always have to go back and buy the newest shiny. They are just reducded to third hand status in attention. While I sell off a gakload of plastics and metals, I can turn my attention to SOTR, Flames of War, AE WW2, Reaper guys, and other selections of gaming that is and has been there, but had to wait in the shadows for thier day.


On hand, I have about fifteen other games that deserve more attention, even more so after that rather gobblygook globe circumnavigating from Wells the Noob.

If that letter, posted in the other thread didn't convince you to find anything other then GW, I don't know what will.

Deminyn wrote:Tabletop Gaming News is an evil website that makes me spend money.

fixed your typo

Manchu wrote:Here are some ideas... From earlier in the thread.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:My Cryx forces contain a Rackham Troll, Heresy Wormherders, a pile of bits from a dozen manufacturers, and characterful extras from Hell-Dorado. My nascent Skorne are already sprouting Perry Twins Feudal Samurai bits. Frankly, so long as your opponent knows what it is you're fielding, you are not required to use PP figures. Hell, if it fits the bill, use GW figures.

Thank you Manchu, I must have missed that from earlier. Does anyone else have any other suggestions or ideas? Even better, does anyone have pictures of other miniatures side by side with Privateer Press's offerings?

So:

- PP
- Infinity
- Malifaux
- MERCS
- Rezolution
- Urban War/Metropolis
- Cutlass!
- Hisroricals

What did I miss and what can bed added?

Secrets of the Third Reich.
Incursion.

Forgot:

- FoW
- DUST Tactics
- Firestorm Armada
- Uncharted Seas
- Dystopian Wars
- Leviathans

Dust Tactics is right now more of a 'board game' than a 'tabletop game'.

Although I guess so is Incursion, even if the units from Incursion are also usable in SoTR.

Battletech

I tried PP a while a go, friend showed me how it works.

For me the models are not appealing.

And I remember thinking this is like pokemon.. You have Ash Catchem the Warcaster and some giant steam punk pikachus..

But really for me a viable alt needs

Excellent miniatures
Great setting
Good Rules
Low prices

Apparently this is impossible.

Manchu wrote:Forgot:

- FoW
- DUST Tactics
- Firestorm Armada
- Uncharted Seas
- Dystopian Wars
- Leviathans

Thanks for compiling this list of games nobody plays (yes a few people play here and there, but come on ...)

None of these games are going to relace GW/40K.

malfred wrote:

Deminyn wrote:Tabletop Gaming News is an evil website that makes me spend money.

fixed your typo

QFT


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also,

CT GAMER wrote:

Manchu wrote:Forgot:

-[bunch of games]

Thanks for compiling this list of games nobody plays (yes a few people play here and there, but come on ...)

None of these games are going to relace GW/40K.

And this is the problem of thinking "GW is doing something I don't like, what can I replace it with."

Nothing is going to wholesale replace GW. They have decades of experience, a ridiculous stranglehold on the market, widespread gaming population and employ some of the best in the business.

However, the hope is that you just say "I've had enough GW!" and stop buying their stuff.
Then hopefully, while you sit there, staring longingly at your work area, you decide it may be worth going to a FLGS on a games night, and asking to try some of the games. Someday, something will peak your interest and you'll be hooked again. And you decide that the couple odd quirks of rules/models/fluff aren't that bad and you love it.
Otherwise, you'll always end up going "GW is doing something I don't like, but nothing else is better, so I'll keep buying it."


GIVE ME YOUR MONEY

Manchu wrote:Here are some ideas... From earlier in the thread.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:My Cryx forces contain a Rackham Troll, Heresy Wormherders, a pile of bits from a dozen manufacturers, and characterful extras from Hell-Dorado. My nascent Skorne are already sprouting Perry Twins Feudal Samurai bits. Frankly, so long as your opponent knows what it is you're fielding, you are not required to use PP figures. Hell, if it fits the bill, use GW figures.

Further to that post: Black Scorpion do some nice Undead Pirates which have snuck in to my Cryx, and I notice that Mcvey chap has come on in leaps and bounds with interesting and characterful figures that could easily serve as something in a WarMaHordes force. I would definitely say the HellDorado range has some usable gear for most factions. Hasslefree do a load more. If anything, the fact that PP do some questionable sculpts should just encourage people to convert and replace and all that other fun hobby stuff we do.

Better yet, there are literally hundreds of ranges if historical figures that can easily serve in War Machine forces. For example, Back Of Beyond Russians/Chinese riflemen from Copplestone Castings make much nicer Khador troops than the PP ones, and if you want gentlemen in frock coats with pistols and tricorne hats then umpty odd ranges exist for those. About the only thing that might be tricky to replace is the Jacks themselves, and now they come in plastic, its hardly rocket science to faff them about. Think outside the box. (The skip sized box GW sell games in.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shaman wrote:I tried PP a while a go, friend showed me how it works.

For me the models are not appealing.

And I remember thinking this is like pokemon.. You have Ash Catchem the Warcaster and some giant steam punk pikachus..

But really for me a viable alt needs

Excellent miniatures
Great setting
Good Rules
Low prices

Apparently this is impossible.

Given that GW themselves can't manage your wish list, I would say that you're aiming too high. Far too high.

OP thats good that you can't get into them...

...I, on the otherhand, am a game whore (game prostitute if you will) and like PP, Infinity, Star Wars Miniatures, Malifaux, and Anima Tactics.


EDIT: You know what? Maybe I'm a miniatures prostitute (not to be confused with a prostitute who caters to midgets)... I like the models a little more than the game play.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
What I think rivals have so far failed to understand is that GW game players want armies, full blown armies instead of skirmish sized forces, as a skirmish force can be built and painted and played with within a day or weekend.

That's an interesting point.

To me, coming from a historical background, 40K is not an "army" game it is an overgrown skirmish game.

Each model represents a single person (monster, tank etc.) and moves, shoots and gets wounded individually by a set of statistics more detailed than many role-playing games. The only difference between this and a skirmish game is that most individuals are corralled into units by the cohesion rule, whereas in a smaller skirmish figures are often allowed to move anywhere they like.

WHFB is basically the same except for ordering the troops into tight formations.

40K "armies" vary between the strength of a large platoon (40) and a company (40).

I'm very sure I've read that WHFB is a phys-rep game and that 1 rank and file trooper equates to 10, so an elf spearman unit of 20 = 200, 50 clanrats = 500 clanrats and that only monsters and heroes are 'individuals'.

That was certainly written into the rules/designers notes, back in the day. .

Yes, it was in first edition, however it was obviously cobblers because it just doesn't happen that 200 men of Side A get first hit on 200 men of Side B and wipe them out without being hit back because of the initiative stat.

People should look at historicals for larger sized games with detailed background and awesome fluff.

Or play SF or Fantasy games.

Manchu-
You should definately put SoTR on the list. The rules are great and manage to make units feel unique without you needing to constantly check the book. There are loads of WW2 minis you can use so there isn't a problem if you don't like the West Wind ones. If you do give it try make sure you get the Doomsday expansion. The first book contains core rules and basic army lists, doomsday has all the weird units.

I would also reccomend Future War commander if you aren't against smaller scale games. It's a lot like warmaster but being generic means it's better supported. Unlike many games the weapon ranges aren't that bad. A nice feature is the way it encourages you to take a mix of unit types. Just infantry or tanks will get destroyed.

CT GAMER- speak for yourself. My gaming group has about 30 regular members so we get at least 10+ large tables each meeting. Over the last 3 months we have gone from 8/9 GW tables per meeting to 2. KoW, Warmahordes, Malifaux and Fow have completely taken over. In particular WHFB is nearly dead with KoW being played instead. The majority of the people still playing 40k are waiting for Mantics sci fi game.

Non GW games will be different to what your used to and GW games are good but other games have good parts too.

Don't forget about Confrontation minis; you can find the plastics for dirt-cheap, which can fill out armies for other systems. The metalsw are usually pretty rediculous on eBay, but sometimes worth getting for a single guy. The sculpting is always worth it.

As 40k replacements go, I had hopes for the Confrontation expansion. Shame it never worked out. But MeanGeen is right; skirmish games don't scratch that itch for a large armies, especially personalized ones. As much as I enjoy Malifaux and Infinity, I always feel like I'm playing someone else's army, not my own creation.

CT GAMER wrote:

Manchu wrote:Forgot:

- FoW
- DUST Tactics
- Firestorm Armada
- Uncharted Seas
- Dystopian Wars
- Leviathans

Thanks for compiling this list of games nobody plays (yes a few people play here and there, but come on ...)

None of these games are going to relace GW/40K.

Nice self fulfilling prophecy there. No one plays the game, so we shouldn't play it. But then it is at least in my local wrong, as Dystopian Wars has replaced 40k night at the FLGS. (random board games night replaced fantasy a few months ago) Not to mention that Spartan is having the same problem as PP right now, they can't make their stuff fast enough to meet the demand.

Mastiff wrote:Don't forget about Confrontation minis; you can find the plastics for dirt-cheap, which can fill out armies for other systems.

Indeed. Someone here in the Springs built a Wargods(Manchu why isn't Wargods on your list as an Alt?) Wendigo force using the plastic Wolfen instead of the Croc Games Wendigo because of the price.

I actually think Confrontation is at least as viable as some of the other games mentioned. The prices on ebay are reasonable for the most part, except for those pieces that were rare or exceedingly beautiful. As Mastiff said, the sculpting is so good it's always worth it. Great rulebook and quite cheap on ebay.

Take a look at the models and you'll see. No reason your GW alternative can't be oop; you still have access to the models for purchase.

Have to say as an alternative to 4th 40k/late 7th ed Warhammer. Warmachine did well. Then 5th ed fixed a lot of 40k for me. Warmahordes has a mechanic some like and some don't. I love coping with random stuff its why I play Orks and Skaven, this leads me to Confrontation 3.5 and Uncharted Seas as opposed to Warmahordes. Flames of War is a great mechanic but I don't like the idea of winning as the Germans or losing as the British. I'd love a Battlefront Sci-Fi game however!

Whoring out Brushfire again, because I like to be able to eat every now and then

Its not going to replace GW, we're not the David to that Goliath, but it is fun. At its heart its a skirmish game, only needing a few models to play a quick fun game. But we were GW players, and we like stupidly big games as well. Thats why we designed Brushfire to scale, the largest game we've played so far was 500 pts on either side, which was somewhere between 50~100 figures each.

With Eight factions in the printed book, and a 9th as a free pdf there are alot of options in what you can play. Each of the factions has a basis in history, but history is twisted and thrown out at times so you get Turtle's with cannons mounted on the back of them and gerbils with power armor. There is no 'Force Organization chat', so you just pick a faction and pay the point cost to play what you want. The mercs & pirates PDFs give you options to take other stuff not normally in your army too.

Quick start rules are free, bare bones rulebook pdf (just the rules, no fluff or factions) is $10, full copy of Historia Rodentia (Rules, Campaign info, fluff, and eight factions) is $20 for the PDF, or $25 for the printed edition. A starter box for a single faction is $35 and gets you a hero and 25 points, standard game size is 100 points but 25~50 is great for introduction games.

The list I'm getting together is for in-print games with rules and associated miniatures. So Brushfire would go on but Confrontation or AT-43 sadly would not. Neither would D&D or Star Wars minis, for that matter. Generic rulesets and miniatures lines don't make the cut, either.

What is SoTR?

Manchu wrote:The list I'm getting together is for in-print games with rules and associated miniatures.

Wargods is both of these, it's a decent alternative to WHFB.

Manchu wrote:The list I'm getting together is for in-print games with rules and associated miniatures. So Brushfire would go on but Confrontation or AT-43 sadly would not. Neither would D&D or Star Wars minis, for that matter. Generic rulesets and miniatures lines don't make the cut, either.

What is SoTR?

Secrets of the Third Rech, IIRC

Surtur wrote:Battletech

Battletech is a lot of fun, especially if you pick up the Solaris VII supplement which lets you play gladiator battles with your `Mechs.

On the topic of alternate games has anyone given Wargods of Aegyptus a try? The game seems very similar to Warhammer Fantasy and has some beautiful models. The starter packs are also reasonably priced and give you a nice jumping off point to creating an army.

I built a couple of armies for Wargods a few years ago but could never find players in my area to play the game with, so I am not sure how fun the system actually is. From what I recall of the rules they incorporate a system to track the experience of the characters in your army and as they survive battles they gain abilities. Seemed neat, anyway the game's website can be found here: http://www.crocodilegames.com/

My one gripe with Warmahordes (and it's a small one) is that you can't really have a custom army, like you can with Space Marines or Eldar or whatever. Cygnar's always Cygnar, and you can't really change that. Also, no generic warcasters/warlocks, but I understand that would probably be impossible to do with the ruleset. So my minor complaint isn't too important. The rules are nice, the models are nice, and I'm just oblivious to the fluff so it's neutral for me.

Mantic and MERCs seem fun too.

Swordwind wrote:My one gripe with Warmahordes (and it's a small one) is that you can't really have a custom army, like you can with Space Marines or Eldar or whatever. Cygnar's always Cygnar, and you can't really change that.

I don't know that that's ENTIRELY true... You can do a lot within the framework of the existing stuff, and the conversion rules for tournaments aren't as restrictive as one might think at first glance.

Hammers Slammers. New multi-scale future combat game. Saw it yesterday. Add that to the list (and it has its own background, properly written by a real novelist, not by a man-child with gruesome rape/murder-fantasies.

They made a Ringo miniatures game?

I never could get into warmachien and hordes, overall I enjoy the visuals of the game and the miniatures but the rules really keep me from playing, which is sad. I have a huge khador army, farrow pig mercs and previously had an everblight army on top of that. As a company PP rocks, I've had great experiences with everyone I've dealt with from their company. Unlike GW, PP seems to "get it" in terms of promoting their company and actually listening to their customers. I really applaud that aspect of their company, however I just can't stomach the game system.

My biggest dislike of the game is casters, too much of the game focuses on them. They are a disgustingly powerful model for starters but also create an autoloss should they be killed. (regardless of how many other units you may still control) Their abilities and feats create a huge swing in the game play, which is great if you like overpowered combos of doom, but my personal preference has always been for more balanced gameplay. I also dislike the fact that you cannot change any of the unit equipment options.

I think it's a step up from 40k, but not by much. My favorite GW game is spacehulk, I' have two huge armies for 40k (Templars and Tau) but I rarely ever play them as the 40k rules system is absoluetly terrible.

As neither of those games seem to work particuarly for me (outside of spacehulk) I've gone back to playing battletech, which even after 25 years of playing is still a top notch game. In the last month I've squeezed in more battletech games than I've played in two years with WM and 40k combined. I think they have a great system with clear mechanics and a strike good balance with every player having the same game options.

I'm also a huge fan of Okko, the only issue is the lack of people who play it. It's a great game and has some pretty cool characters driven scenarios.