Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Manchu wrote:

themocaw wrote:As a Warmahordes player myself, all I can say is: that's fine.

Er, thanks for your approval?

Yeah, I realize it's fine for people to have different opinions. That's kind of the point of this thread. There are a ton of threads about how awful GW is right now and a lot of folks are saying PP is a great alternative. Maybe as a company they are -- I dunno, really. At least they tell us what's coming up. Then again, I haven't seen any "battlejacks" sold by CHS yet. But the point is that PP, Malifaux, and Infinity (et alia) aren't really alternatives at all for some of us.

I cannot get into Warmachine or Hordes either and Infinity is something I am trying to sneak up on an open mind with.
I am currently enjoying VSF and the GASLIGHT rules offer something nice to play. Anything where a narrative is important is cool by me as well which is why I am being lured by VBCW.

DUST and SOTR is always trying to lull me with siren calls.

I'm also looking at 15mm and smaller to enable me satisfy my urges for massed battles.

http://www.wargamevault.com/ Is my current mecca just for the fact that if I download something and its total pap, I haven't really lost anything.

The best thing is that if you stray of the beaten path for 28mm sci fi rules, your existing GW minis will always have a table to fight on. A power armoured sci fi trooper is a power armoured sci fi trooper but with different skills depending where you rock up to.

There really is something for everyone out there and if that something is 40k or Fantasy battle then, good.

Kilkrazy wrote:You don't have to play any set of rules with the "official" figures.

A truer thing has never been said. I will put my hands up say that I use all sorts of counts as, as long as your gaming group is used to this all is good. The group that I play within positively expects it.

Its time to make a new wargame. I can feel it.

J_Gobbo

The key difference between the two is that there is no compulsion to use PP only figures. My Cryx forces contain a Rackham Troll, Heresy Wormherders, a pile of bits from a dozen manufacturers, and characterful extras from Hell-Dorado. My nascent Skorne are already sprouting Perry Twins Feudal Samurai bits. Frankly, so long as your opponent knows what it is you're fielding, you are not required to use PP figures. Hell, if it fits the bill, use GW figures.

Kilkrazy wrote:We are lucky there is such a wide variety of models available.

Yeah, it's a great time for tabletop (wargaming and RPGs) in all reality.

Surtur wrote:I can't help but feel there's a lot of chest thumping in this thread

Not sure what this is supposed to mean.

Delephont wrote:Have you considered MERCS?

Yep. I pay pretty close attention to the News & Rumors section (even before reading Surtur's advice) and have a pretty good sense of what's out there - at least, if the news makes it to Dakka. I got a chance to look at a MERCS book at my FLGS, along with the Infinity book. To be honest, I had gone to the FLGS to pick them both up and wound up leaving them both on the shelf. As a matter of fact, I bought the new O&G and TK hardbacks instead! I've been reading the threads on both systems around here, however. Maybe someday?

Just to expand on Mongoose's problems; They created a game of modern warfare (Battlefiled: Evolution IIRC) at about the same time, with pre-painted plastic minis. Photos of the minis were released showing the plastics had very good paintjobs. Unfortunately, those were just the masters. The painters in China couldn't supply that level of quality, and many people were incredibly disappointed when they received their first minis in the mail. This ultimately hurt Mongoose's reputation for promising higher quality than they could deliver.

I think the loss of goodwill carried over to their other product lines. People thought they were supporting a real challenger to GW. When they found out Mongoose was equaly capable of making mistakes they deserted them to wait for the next GW-killer.

I'm not a big fan of the Mailfaux minis; a buddy of mine bought some for me because he was excited about the game, but I really had a tough time choosing because I find their sculpting quality to be below par. On the plus side, you only need ~five minis, and the game was fun. The games are short, and strategies are determined by the group you purchase. They do have a great scenarios though, where each side also gets hidden goals (ie. assassinate specific model, grab X resources).

I don't see it as a replacement for 40k though, more of a fun side diversion.

I've never been excited about PP, for the same reasons posted earlier by others. I don't like the clunky aethetic, and the armies don't seem to invite conversions. I don't see armies that are "personalized", if that makes sense. I like steam-punk, but that seems to have been lost over the years.

you're never going to get your 40k fix playing Warmachine

or any other game for that matter.

and forcing the issue is a disservice to yourself.

If 40k is the only thing that appeals to you, you're going to have to be OK with how they are right now

or accept that you need to let that chapter of your life close

...

sounds like psychologist advice for dealing with problematic relationships

Manchu wrote:

biccat wrote:People are complaining about the GW price increases and lack of sales to Oceania...so you started a thread to bash Privateer Press?

Did you read the OP? No? Okay, here it is again: a lot of folks are claiming they will quit GW in favor of PP but PP is not actually a viable alternative to GW for everyone.

I did read the OP. It's some terribly offended poster ing about how he doesn't like GW but wants to play GW games because he doesn't like other games.

So you don't like Privateer Press's miniatures, why start a whole thread on it? You're not asking for alternatives (you've dismissed them all already), you're not asking for a solution to GW's "war on customers." You're not asking for other people's opinions on the models, nor are you asking for a defense from PP apologists. You're just whining about how PP isn't GW.

1: Play something else.
2: Suck it up and put up with GW's gak.
3: Stop playing.

/thread.

Buzzsaw wrote:]There are three components:

(1) Rules: GW's rules are serviceable and even preferable for someone like me, for whom tournament play with air-tight rulings is not a big deal. I feel like PP offers some very cool ideas but I feel the "combos" get even more cookie-cutter than 40k lists. I'm ambivalent about this issue, really.

(2) Models: I love (not like) the Citadel ranges on balance. By contrast, very few of PP's models do anything for me. I have never even been able to settle on collecting any faction over another. (The starter pack I bought was Skorne.)

(3) The Fluff: In my mind, GW wins hands down. It's not just a matter of having been around longer, either. The tone of the Iron Kingdoms just isn't to my taste as of yet.

Sounds like you tried a game, and didn't like it. I'm curious though as to why you even bothered with a game whose models and fluff didn't appeal to you. Kudo's for expressing your opinions as subjective opinions though, in contrast to alot of the "PP is peepee" kind of comments that tend to swirl on threads like these.

In the end people are going to be drawn to what appeals to them. In as much as what appeals to us is at least partially taught and based on experience rather than intrinsic, GW will always have an advantage as it's the first wargame many of us came to. The GW asthetic is what many of us like, and the GW gaming experience is what many of us are comfortable with, so it will color our opinion of PP and other games. Nothing at all wrong with that, just the way it is.

On a personal level, I don't play much 40k anymore, but I started with 40k, love the asthetic/fluff, and many of the models I buy have similarities with GW in terms of design, proportions, etc. Is it because they are influenced by GW, because I am influenced by GW or other factors?

Yes.

I've got MERCS.

The nice things are:

1. The entire system can be got for about $270 at the moment.
2. Only four factions and only five to six models per faction means you can do super detail on the individual figures.
3. The rules are concise yet subtle.
4. It's a great excuse to build up a lot of good terrain pieces.

... am now interested in Mercs

thanks Killkrazy

biccat wrote:I did read the OP. It's some terribly offended poster ing about how he doesn't like GW but wants to play GW games because he doesn't like other games.

So you don't like Privateer Press's miniatures, why start a whole thread on it? You're not asking for alternatives (you've dismissed them all already), you're not asking for a solution to GW's "war on customers." You're not asking for other people's opinions on the models, nor are you asking for a defense from PP apologists. You're just whining about how PP isn't GW.

1: Play something else.
2: Suck it up and put up with GW's gak.
3: Stop playing.

/thread.

Wow, how to make friends and influence people. We are trying to find out what it is that is wrong with PP in our tastes, and trying to find an alternative to our GW crak addiction. Discussion is the whole point of these forums, and not everyone is going to see the same things. I too would like to know what some see in their product, and at the same time we are all aware of what is going on over the road and have no requirement to belabour that issue.

There are other systems out there, and until discussed they are going to remain unknown. The fact that we have seen some of them and not been as positive as we like also requires further discussion, I would love to find a viable alternative to what I play currently.

biccat wrote:
I did read the OP. It's some terribly offended poster ing about how he doesn't like GW but wants to play GW games because he doesn't like other games.

So you don't like Privateer Press's miniatures, why start a whole thread on it? /thread.

Because in another anti-GW post someone mentioned PP as an alternative to GW. The OP gave reasons why PP wasn't a viable to him, and a Mod pointed out that they were going Off-topic, and should start a new thread about it.

Thus, this thread came into existence.

But thanks for letting us know you don't feel this thread should exist. Some people may not be able to summon up enough willpower to simply avoid the topic on their own gumption, so you are making the world a much safer place by shutting down debate before allowing it to confuse lesser mortals. Kudos to you, sir.

For a nice change of pace, 2mm models are worth a look.



You can play enormous battles with great looking units in a small space and quite cheaply. Also they are very easy to paint.

biccat wrote:

Manchu wrote:

biccat wrote:People are complaining about the GW price increases and lack of sales to Oceania...so you started a thread to bash Privateer Press?

Did you read the OP? No? Okay, here it is again: a lot of folks are claiming they will quit GW in favor of PP but PP is not actually a viable alternative to GW for everyone.

I did read the OP. It's some terribly offended poster ing about how he doesn't like GW but wants to play GW games because he doesn't like other games..

Wow. Nope, I'm not complaining that I don't like GW. I like GW just fine and will continue buying their products. But thank you for confirming that you have no interest in conforming to our Rule Number One.

On a slight tangent.

I think the only thing that could prove a successfull alternative to WH40K and the juggernaut that is it's background and fluff, etc, would be if someone converted one of the successfull console game I.P's into a table top wargame....kinda like FFG is doing with Gears of War.

People play these games online and on their own, and invest themselves in full immersion into those gaming worlds, the emotional bond people generate from playing these games can easily rival the bond that can be had from reading fluff from the Black Library (for example)

I think the following titles would make really good alternatives to WH40K, and can be skirmish level or massed rank war games:

Mass Effect
HALO
Gears of War (not a board game)
Kill Zone
RED Faction
Resistance
CRYSIS
ALIENS

Just to name a few......

I'd really love to see a KillZone skirmish game (and that expaned on). There's a lot of Helghast-esque stuff out there already so someone with rules writing talent could easily get some traction there. You know, a 54mm KillZone game would be awesome -- of course, the perennial problem with 54mm, the board/terrain would take up a massive amount of space. Of course, the close-quaters urban nature of the game world helps.

We have a Dakka user who was putting together an awesome board game based on Alien. An Aliens-based wargame or skirmish game would be awesome, too.

Here's neil101's thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/318828.page

I have to confess, I'm really quite unclear what you are trying to accompliush here Manchu'

Manchu wrote:There are three components:

(1) Rules: GW's rules are serviceable and even preferable for someone like me, for whom tournament play with air-tight rulings is not a big deal. I feel like PP offers some very cool ideas but I feel the "combos" get even more cookie-cutter than 40k lists. I'm ambivalent about this issue, really.

I would quible that PP's rules are more prone to cookie-cutter combos then GW's, but, given that you're "ambivalent" about them, I need not argue the point. But the thing is, rules systems being "balanced" seems more or less measurable, as opposed to other elements that are purely subjective, so taking this element out of the equation by indifference leaves rather little to discuss.

Manchu wrote:(2) Models: I love (not like) the Citadel ranges on balance. By contrast, very few of PP's models do anything for me. I have never even been able to settle on collecting any faction over another. (The starter pack I bought was Skorne.)

(3) The Fluff: In my mind, GW wins hands down. It's not just a matter of having been around longer, either. The tone of the Iron Kingdoms just isn't to my taste as of yet.

Continuing what I said above: I certainly won't argue that the technical details of PP's models are equal to GW's, but that's the difference between the market leader and an upstart.

But if you simply don't like PP's aesthetics (or Corvus Belli's Infinity range, as you reference elsewhere)? If you don't like it, you don't like it, it's not really something that we're able to really argue over, or convince you about.

The valuation of the background is that to the Nth degree: if you like da Grimdark (which I most assuredly do not) and think it's well written (again, I don't), and don't like the Iron Kingdoms or the Human Sphere (the settings of Warma/Hordes and Infinity, respectively), again, we can no more convince you to like them then we can convince someone that durian smells good; either you like it, or it makes you throw up.

Is the point of this thread simply for solidarity for people that don't like games other then ones put out by GW?

Manchu wrote:Lord knows I've tried. I've bought some models and painted them up, got a slew of the books, which I have poured over. I haven't managed to pick up a game but, to be honest, I don't really even want to. I recognize they're a good company with some cool ideas. But most of their miniatures look goofy to me. GW doesn't seem to have a great deal of respect for you and me and the rest of its customers. But if you don't really like PP's stuff, like I don't, then PP is not really an alternative.

There's been a lot of this sentiment buzzing around the threads criticizing GW so I wanted to post this here so there is a place where it's on-topic.

This isn't flamebaiting, folks. I'm not saying you can't like it or that it's objectively horrible. People who agree with the above, please make sure to stay polite.

***Also, I changed the thread title since that is where this heading anyhow.l

I mean, you're not trying to get people to convince you to try new things, because you're happy with the thing you have.

You're not looking for people to argue with you about the virtues of other games, because your dismissal of these games isn't based on something arguable, it's your aesthetic sense of things.

I'm not trying to be snide, I just don't see where this thread can go and stay on topic: boosters of non-GW games will proclaim their virtues and be shot down, boosters of GW games will denigrate non-GW games and be called fanbois... I'm just not sure what is hoped to be accomplished here.

Well, in the Manchu's defense, some times, a thread doesn't have to necessarily have an objective....i'd class this as an open discussion.

I think Manchu has a point in itself: If you're fed up with GW but nothing out there floats your boat...what do you do?

I mean, it's the elephant in the room....at least that's the way I'm reading this thread.

The answer is simple, but it's painful....and I believe that's where the true discussion lies.

GW has created something beautiful (in one respect) they have created a game with a world-wide community! An American can fly to London tomorrow with his army, walk into almost any store (GW or Independant with a table) and most likely pick up a game with a complete stranger. The stranger knows the rules, understands the background, and they play for a few hours....no other system can boast this, and thats the problem....how do you offer a true alternative to something like that, in the time frame that it is required?

Fair enough, and I don't want to seem intemperate with Manchu. I just wanted to be clear that you can like this;

More then this;

Or this;


And it doesn't need to have some deep meaning, nor is it something that we are going to argue someone out of. Conversely, if you like Mr.112 or the Combine more then Mr. Draigo, it's not something we need to, or for that matter, can, hash out here.

Also, I wanted to post some purty pictures.

As a complete and utter atheist I am not sure why I want to live in a fascist Theocracy killing aliens in the name of Chr...err the Emperor. But strangely I do. Oh, GW you ahd me at hello as you pulled my wallet from me removed all of the money from it punched me in the face gave me some miniatures and demanded I say thank you.

It's the fluff that I love and I love the models. Had Warmachine or Hordes been my first foray I'd probably be saying this from another point of view, other than the fact PP doesn't make you sell your children to buy models.

As has been pointed out a few times, a major reason for posting this thread was so people who do not sympathize with the many, many "just play Warmahordes" responses to GW's price hike/ripping off of the Southern Hemisphere can blow off some steam without causing a brawl in those threads. We have thread after thread after thread of people bashing GW but one remark that's critical of PP is considered "flamebaiting." I mean, look at some of the responses here.

@Buzzsaw: I don't think the quality of rules is any more objective ameasurement than the quality of miniatures. Getting to what the objective standard is will be hard, sure, but they can both be more or less objective or subjective.

So those items aside: The point of this thread is to talk about whether or not PP or Malifaux or anything else can really be a viable alternative to people who like GW. For me, the answer is no. For others, it's yes and then some. There's also the objective of just talking about the range of options out there and what else we would like to see -- stuff that PP and other alleged "GW alternatives" aren't doing.

Buzzsaw, I think the problem with your perspective is you are trying to come up with "the answer." It will be different for each person. That's one of the underlying points here: Warmahordes isn't going to work for all wargamers just like GW doesn't.

Thankfully I had 2 children...I just sold the dumb one.

Sarpedon_702 wrote:Thankfully I had 2 children...I just sold the dumb one.

Well, I'd stay away from the PP lines. If you start to like them, you'll end up selling the smart one as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Delephont wrote:GW has created something beautiful (in one respect) they have created a game with a world-wide community! An American can fly to London tomorrow with his army, walk into almost any store (GW or Independant with a table) and most likely pick up a game with a complete stranger. The stranger knows the rules, understands the background, and they play for a few hours....no other system can boast this, and thats the problem....how do you offer a true alternative to something like that, in the time frame that it is required?

That's a great point. PP is trying very hard to make this a reality for their games, too.

I can't afford another hobby. I'll just stick with one system and and be happy with it. I just love the fluff for 40K. I swear I have every Black library Book I have Everything for Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, and Deathwatch. Not to mention the Video games and I vowed I would never play an mmo, but a 40k one is fast approaching and I am going to break my vow...

Manchu - You may want to look at Rezolution: A dark tomorrow. It has a very dark cyberpunk feel. The review are positive and while some of the models are a bit off there are some really good ones too- it's not like you have to use them anyway. The rules are meant to make cinematic games rather than realistic.

You might also want to try looking at generic games. There are enough cyberpunk models out there you shouldn't have trouble finding ones that fit. This way you get the background and models you want.

Manchu wrote:As has been pointed out a few times, a major reason for posting this thread was so people who do not sympathize with the many, many "just play Warmahordes" responses to GW's price hike/ripping off of the Southern Hemisphere can blow off some steam without causing a brawl in those threads. We have thread after thread after thread of people bashing GW but one remark that's critical of PP is considered "flamebaiting." I mean, look at some of the responses here.

Actually, this pretty much answers my earlier question of "Is the point of this thread simply for solidarity for people that don't like games other then ones put out by GW?" The answer seems to be "yes".

Manchu wrote:@Buzzsaw: I don't think the quality of rules is any more objective ameasurement than the quality of miniatures. Getting to what the objective standard is will be hard, sure, but they can both be more or less objective or subjective.

So those items aside: The point of this thread is to talk about whether or not PP or Malifaux or anything else can really be a viable alternative to people who like GW. For me, the answer is no. For others, it's yes and then some. There's also the objective of just talking about the range of options out there and what else we would like to see -- stuff that PP and other alleged "GW alternatives" aren't doing.

Buzzsaw, I think the problem with your perspective is you are trying to come up with "the answer." It will be different for each person. That's one of the underlying points here: Warmahordes isn't going to work for all wargamers just like GW doesn't.

I'm not quite sure how my comments can be read that way... But let me be explicit, I recognize that there is no one "answer", which is why I was puzzled by what this thread was supposed to accomplish. But the above point answered that, so I will leave you to it.

Delephont wrote:Well, in the Manchu's defense, some times, a thread doesn't have to necessarily have an objective....i'd class this as an open discussion.

I think Manchu has a point in itself: If you're fed up with GW but nothing out there floats your boat...what do you do?

I mean, it's the elephant in the room....at least that's the way I'm reading this thread.

The answer is simple, but it's painful....and I believe that's where the true discussion lies.

GW has created something beautiful (in one respect) they have created a game with a world-wide community! An American can fly to London tomorrow with his army, walk into almost any store (GW or Independant with a table) and most likely pick up a game with a complete stranger. The stranger knows the rules, understands the background, and they play for a few hours....no other system can boast this, and thats the problem....how do you offer a true alternative to something like that, in the time frame that it is required?

That is also true of several Ancient and Mediaeval wargame rules. The extra bonus is that if you don't use the WHAB base system you models will be compatible with almost all the other rulesets on the market.

You're right, there is no 'one' answer. I think you are missing the point of the thread, and that is to give ideas as to what replacement systems there are to PP. In a lot of peoples view PP isn't the answer to GW, so I don't get why you are so upset when that point is muted.

Cutlas has been muted, along with Infinity and a few others. It is no surprise that the more established alternatives have been looked into, and whether they reach the benchmark is upto each person who reads the thread.

I am interested because I find I have a similar opinion to the OP, and am also looking for an alternative or at least a measure of getting 'a good bang for my buck'

De Bellis Antiquitatis

http://fanaticus.org/DBA/index.html