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I think malifaux has decent mechanics from what I've read but the models are generally fugly.

PP has so-so miniswith some good minis although the game plays like magic the gathering - build and build only. With 40k the dice element is more pronounced so you have to be more tactical . WIth Warmahordes the luck factor is almost non existant, plus caster-kill sucks.

Phototoxin wrote:I think malifaux has decent mechanics from what I've read but the models are generally fugly.

PP has so-so miniswith some good minis although the game plays like magic the gathering - build and build only. With 40k the dice element is more pronounced so you have to be more tactical . WIth Warmahordes the luck factor is almost non existant, plus caster-kill sucks.

Eh? Build has almost nothing to do with success in WM/H. I've seen tourneys won with lists written by their opponent.

There is a wargames convention near me tomorrow (today even) and it has never had a GW stall. Its never had a GW presence, beyond some second hand gear and what the independents bring with them. Its a large building full of stalls selling all manner of system and every shape and size of figure from across time and space. Granted you are never going to find "Warhammer 40k without the GW", and perhaps thats because GW kicks the IP out of everything that even comes near...but it would be a little silly to believe that NONE of the possible options is capable of being as good or better than 40k, or even replacing it in your affections. If I find anything "grimdark" I'll let you know.

@CaptainJack: I think we may be the only two people on Dakka who own Cutlass! so far. (One of us has to review it soon!) I'd guess we bought it for the same reason. The point wasn't to replace GW but rather to sample other things. That's the same reason I tried to start WarMachine and may eventually actually start it. As it stands, I feel there are better "other games" for me. I deeply sympathize with anyone currently priced out of GW who doesn't care for PP's stuff or the historicals. Yes, there is more than ever before but aside from GW and PP there's still a long way to go.

the sad part about all of this is that if there ever was to be a perfect substitute for 40k, GW would already have the C&Ds sent out...

Though I like the Infinity models and rules the models have never really grabbed me.

Here's my take. Warmachine and Hordes are exciting and tactically interesting games that are easy to set up and quick to play, ideally suited to a tournament mindset. I love them for that.
However, the models are really really hit and miss. I got into the game because I loved the primal power of the Earthborn Dire Troll sculpt. Now.
If you look at the other Dire Troll minis, you'll notice something:






Right. These are the five dire trolls, and they are each in their own way dynamic and well scuplted miniatures. But from the Mauler to Mulg, there is a HUGE difference in basic proportions, physical traits and general consistency. You can argue that Dire Trolls are morphologically inconsistent by nature, but this inconsistency is rampant throughout PP's ranges. Trolls are by far the worst offenders, with some models having ENORMOUS hands, other having normal sized hands, completely different approaches to faces, head sizes, shoulder growths...the lot! Human unit attachments who are completely out of scale with the normal guys are common too (Winter Gaurd are an example here). Considering what PP are charging this broad scale incosistency is unacceptable. It speaks to a carelessness and overall lack of quality control in their miniatures. This same attitude is what leads them to having many ill concieved "turkey" models with wildly impractical poses or downright stupid looking equipment. (One major pet peeve of mine is Grim Angus. The model is absolutely sweet, except he has a blade on the stock of his gun. So if he braces it to absorb recoil, he'll cut himself? GENIUS. You know we had blades attached to guns, called bayonets, that look perfectly cool, right PP?) I mean it's not that their guys can't sculpt, clearly they can, but it seems like they have not got any one vision for the game or a lack of critical analysis (does this look right, is this consistent, would this actually work?) Maybe I'm too pernickity, but this is so widespread in PP games it's quite hard for me to ignore. I mean, 40K has it's share of sillies too, but mostly it fits a certain realistic aestethic, and within ranges, these days, most stuff is scaled appropriately. GW I think provide better "value for money" in that regard than PP. PP charge premium prices for what can be at times substandard product. And their stubborn adherance to metal pisses me off because it is obviously an inferior material when compared to plastic.

The other issue is the background, which is not as compelling or open as GW background due to it's focus on individual characters and a developing narrative. This is a style thing and I can appreciate it, so whatever, but I understand why it doesn't have an appeal to the creative fluff nutters of the world.

Malifaux to me looks like good concepts with sloppy, soft sculpting. I've no interest in getting into it.

That said, there are many advantages to PP games as a hobby. The unified release schedule and fast pace of releases are a godsend to us Xenos players who are used to waiting in the cold for a decade or so between books with GW. The game has a strong internal balance and I feel match ups are usually much fairer than in some GW situations, and you can make most builds work. The way the game works means a few tweaks can give you an entirely new list, and also means that you rarely need multiples of large units- generally you want a diversity of troops in your army.
I play and enjoy 40K, Fantasy and Warmahordes, and think each has it's place.

As a Warmachine/WHFB player, I get where you're at Manchu. At first, I kinda drank the Kool-Aid and fell straight in love with WM. I liked the idea of a skirmish based game, and WM's ruleset is solid for that.

However, as time moved on, (And two armies were under my belt, Cryx and Mercs) I kinda noticed that PP's newer releases were kinda silly. Retribution was kinda the beginning, though I liked Mk II. However, the newest stuff, particularly for Wrath, was really not inspiring for me, and I just eventually saw too many parallels with GW's releases and PP.

Is PP bad? Hell no. They've got two great games, cool minis, etc. But, IMHO, it doesn't do what Fantasy does for me.

@daboss

the inconsistency does not speak of an overall lack of quality...but rather this is actually PP moving over to a more cohesive aesthetic for all of its armies

if you look at the IK line "Bridge Troll" you'll notice the basic "Iron Kingdoms Troll" aesthetic is there and you can see how the aesthetic evolved over time with subsequent diretrolls. Youll also see "cygnar city guard" figures painted RED (more menite than khador).

Warmachine/Hordes started out as an RPG and the aesthetics were usually decided largely by the Matt wilson and the hired artist at the time, with some suggestions here and there.

PP is finally settling in on a solid aesthetic for its trolls (darker, purpler blue and popeye arms) as now there is a need to do so.

Even 40k's stuff evolved as the years went by. Orks in particular as well as space marines etc.

To hazard a guess, inconsistencies in quality of sculpt will eventually balance themselves out. Don't forget how many truly hideous casts GW has gone through to achieve any of the consistent looks of its miniatures. PP is on what, its second wind with releases/re-releases?

And unless I miss my guess, are they not now doing plastics?

And I've never seen a fantasy scupltor yet who can make a scabbard/holster that actually fits the weapon the mini carries.

Bakerofish: Fair point, but it doesn't excuse the massive scale problems that are still consistently occuring.

@daboss

you say that but all i hear are "RHINO LANDRAIDER RHINO VALKYRIE DROPPOD"

Hahahah, nicely played, sir.

gotta say though...theres no excuse for the current Kayazy Assassins

*shudder*

Actually it's funny people bring up the Aesthetics. Certain Menoth units (Reclaimers, Vassal Mechaniks, The Testament of Menoth) could honestly fit right in with the IoM if you just replaced the Menofixes with skulls.

Heck at a stretch even Reznik and the Choir kind of feel like they could fit.

If a miniatures game doesn't attract me with its miniatures, then as a game, it has failed for me.

Warmachine is one of these games.

There is no faction where I actually like enough models or units to bother collecting a playable army.
(Though I do like a number of models and units from both warmachine AND hordes, you can't play a game with an army comprised of some Cygnar units, some circle units and a khador unit - like many miniatures games, armies have to be made up of units for a single faction).

I did dally with it when it had first come out, and the Cygnar battlebox was the starter I disliked the least (The majority of Khador is too chunky and brutal looking, the Menites too "churchy" (I have a bias against "religious" figures and will never use them) and the cryx seemed "evil for its own sake".

Then they went and changed the game, lowering points costs, and now I need more stuff to make that initial starter playable.

I found Infinity. It's SF, it's cyberpunk, it has a mechanic that reinforces the "those who live by the sword will be shot by those who don't" philosophy. It's skirmish (so small 'army') as well.

I think something is being overlooked in this and it's a fairly simple thing.

The Chaos Lord on Juggernaut is amazing, the Obliterators stink to high heaven.

Does much of the PP range leave me cold? Yep, entire armies of it, but certain models are amazing:







There are many of the malifaux range that I really like and several that don't appeal at all. Infinity... erm... I would have to scrutinise the range to find something that I really didn't like as I am usually blown away by how detailed and dynamic that range is.

What I think rivals have so far failed to understand is that GW game players want armies, full blown armies instead of skirmish sized forces, as a skirmish force can be built and painted and played with within a day or weekend.

Bakerofish wrote:gotta say though...theres no excuse for the current Kayazy Assassins

*shudder*

The only one of those models I actually dislike is "dancing unit leader."

I think the rest look suitably "street gutter assassin-y," especially the Underboss.

Speaking of PP and their models, does anyone know of any alternative model lines that scale well with Warmachine/Hordes?

Here are some ideas... From earlier in the thread.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:My Cryx forces contain a Rackham Troll, Heresy Wormherders, a pile of bits from a dozen manufacturers, and characterful extras from Hell-Dorado. My nascent Skorne are already sprouting Perry Twins Feudal Samurai bits. Frankly, so long as your opponent knows what it is you're fielding, you are not required to use PP figures. Hell, if it fits the bill, use GW figures.

Would you like to know why Privateer Press has elements that make it seem like Warhammer and Magic the Gathering? It's simple really. Matt Wilson used to work for Wizards of the Coast and he's co creator of Warmachine and Hordes. He's also the artist that painted a lot of the angel pictures for the white decks of magic cards.

The miniatures director however used to be Mike McVey of Games Workshops Eavy Metal articles. So with both of those guys in charge of the company, of course it's bound to have elements from both of those games.

I've gotta say, I've seen some pretty horrible miniatures come from both Privateer Press and Games Workshop. They both have made some pretty seriously bad miniatures. But they have also both made some pretty seriously good miniatures too. So bashing one while saying the other is better is really not true which ever side of the fence you are on. They're both great and they're both terrible.

And if someone doesn't like these games, nothing is stopping you from trying to create your own game. If there is nothing out there that you like, why not make what you like? That's what Matt Wilson did.

Da Boss wrote:Here's my take. Warmachine and Hordes are exciting and tactically interesting games that are easy to set up and quick to play, ideally suited to a tournament mindset. I love them for that.
However, the models are really really hit and miss. I got into the game because I loved the primal power of the Earthborn Dire Troll sculpt. Now.
If you look at the other Dire Troll minis, you'll notice something:






Right. These are the five dire trolls, and they are each in their own way dynamic and well scuplted miniatures. But from the Mauler to Mulg, there is a HUGE difference in basic proportions, physical traits and general consistency.
...

.

I was looking at the pictures thinking what a good job the sculptors did to tie together a range of monsters which are different but also clearly closely genetically related.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Apart from the humanoid body form and four digits, they all have short legs, big hands, lower jaw tusks, and small crania.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote: ...
...

What I think rivals have so far failed to understand is that GW game players want armies, full blown armies instead of skirmish sized forces, as a skirmish force can be built and painted and played with within a day or weekend.

That's an interesting point.

To me, coming from a historical background, 40K is not an "army" game it is an overgrown skirmish game.

Each model represents a single person (monster, tank etc.) and moves, shoots and gets wounded individually by a set of statistics more detailed than many role-playing games. The only difference between this and a skirmish game is that most individuals are corralled into units by the cohesion rule, whereas in a smaller skirmish figures are often allowed to move anywhere they like.

WHFB is basically the same except for ordering the troops into tight formations.

40K "armies" vary between the strength of a large platoon (40) and a company (40).

From a generalship viewpoint, the important thing is how many individual manoeuvre units your force contains. A typical 40K list contains about 10, very similar to Infinity "armies", DBA armies (12) and other historical games.

It doesn't really matter how many individuals are abstracted within a manoeuvre unit. For example, each base of my 6mm Russians represents a brigade containing an average 2,500 men. It is still only a single playing piece on the battlefield. The main difference is the look of it.

Manchu wrote:@CaptainJack: I think we may be the only two people on Dakka who own Cutlass! so far. (One of us has to review it soon!) I'd guess we bought it for the same reason. The point wasn't to replace GW but rather to sample other things. That's the same reason I tried to start WarMachine and may eventually actually start it. As it stands, I feel there are better "other games" for me. I deeply sympathize with anyone currently priced out of GW who doesn't care for PP's stuff or the historicals. Yes, there is more than ever before but aside from GW and PP there's still a long way to go.

Agreed, there will be a Cutlass game played on the 'Tales from the Maelstrom' blog in the near future as we all have pirate crews and are just waiting for the real world to give us a gap to play in. I'm sorry if I came across badly, I'm not getting rid of my GW stuff. It's more a point of not expanding the amount of gear as fast as I have in the past, and concentrating on completing currently owned minis/armies. I am getting stuff from Antenicities to use as Chimeras in my Guard list as an example.

OT: Have a look at the Cutlass book, the presentation is fantastic and it is worth the price just to read as there is a well laid out plot and nicely paced story running through the book. The rules look nice and easy to learn and use. While I haven't used them in anger yet they give me a good feeling for playability and fun.

On topic, the minis posted exemplify why I won't buy PP minis. As an aside I'm waiting for Leviathans to come out, and I've tried Dystopia wars and wasn't impressed with the game although the minis are quite tempting. I think I will wait for Leviathans to come out before I choose one of them.

Wow, I'm a little embarrassed after reading this thread. And slightly irritated. [Note: I haven't bought GW models for awhile now but I was in the OP's position a couple years ago, so I empathize]

Embarrassed that so many people can say that they have tried another game but can't get behind the price/rules/model/fluff but they are tired of GW. ... Don't try to shift your 'fix' from GW to someone else. You think that GW is screwing you/everyone, than stop buying GW. (Not switch to something else) Just stop buying GW. AFTER you have decided to stop buying GW, (I don't want anyone to only quote the previous bit, the next bit is just as important) than you should explore other games and systems to see if there is anything you enjoy for itself, not as a GW substitute.

tl;dr? summary: Don't like GW, don't buy it. THEN, find new game you enjoy for itself, not as a rebound.


The other little bit was people commenting about the quality of some of the other companies minis. I don't mean aesthetics, that's a matter of taste, but the sculpting and production quality of the companies that make Malifaux and Infinity is not sub par. The detail on minis such as Lady Justice (Wyrd), DT Mauler (PP), or zondbots (CB) are as good as GW. (At least, in terms of depth of detail, quality of casting, and such, they are comparable.)

With the newest double whammy of GW news (the Southern hemisphere and more price increases) many people are thinking of ditching GW. Make up your mind. I had that decision in front of me when the Tyranid codex came out, and the Skaven codex, where I decided that the quality of the rules, and the prices of models, were too much for me and I was stopping GW. Since then, I have played a bunch of games and found some I like, and some I don't. If you are afraid of getting into a system no one plays, get two factions, then you can demo it, and there is always at least one person too eager to buy new pewter, and it'll just take off.

Reasons I stopped playing GW: 5th ed. Tyranid Codex making my army unplayable/need to spend twice as much to make it a legal list, 8th ed. Skaven codex so poorly written that I ended up not buying a single miniature, price bumps.
Reasons I Miss GW: Fluff (which I still read), ease of finding games in new areas, their plastic model kits.

Other games tried: WarmaHordes, Malifaux, Firestorm Armada, Infinity, Flames of War.

some are better than others, but I go with the models I like, take the time to paint them up and read up on them, and I have had fun, even if I don't play with them all the time

My big problem I'm running into is a lot of the alternatives are more geared for 'skirmish' level play, where I like more company size games. Also most the more popular alternatives have a serious lack of tanks and the like, and as a treadhead, thats fairly intolerable. As a result I'm probably going to stick with my Imperial Guard for a long while yet, though my ork list has pretty much been axed.

All that ever attracted me were Khador, but as the game revolves around Jacks... and they look... awful... I shan't really consider it.

Plus why would I want an army of Winter Guard when I have my IG?

And Steampunk? I don't care for Steampunk...

Kilkrazy wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
What I think rivals have so far failed to understand is that GW game players want armies, full blown armies instead of skirmish sized forces, as a skirmish force can be built and painted and played with within a day or weekend.

That's an interesting point.

To me, coming from a historical background, 40K is not an "army" game it is an overgrown skirmish game.

Each model represents a single person (monster, tank etc.) and moves, shoots and gets wounded individually by a set of statistics more detailed than many role-playing games. The only difference between this and a skirmish game is that most individuals are corralled into units by the cohesion rule, whereas in a smaller skirmish figures are often allowed to move anywhere they like.

WHFB is basically the same except for ordering the troops into tight formations.

40K "armies" vary between the strength of a large platoon (40) and a company (40).

I'm very sure I've read that WHFB is a phys-rep game and that 1 rank and file trooper equates to 10, so an elf spearman unit of 20 = 200, 50 clanrats = 500 clanrats and that only monsters and heroes are 'individuals'.

That was certainly written into the rules/designers notes, back in the day.

But my point stands, I think the skirmish games, whilst excellent skirmish games, aren't attracting the bigger 'army' players of 40k/fantasy. If another system with developed background and armies were to come along, with a price that was right, we'd see a migration.

Im in the same boat as many people these days, GW has finally pushed me out of playing/collecting with there screw the customer/fans attitude but i enjoy mini wargaming and can find no other that is interesting or has decent models.

I spent 2 hours last night looking through pp, malifaux and infinity's websites at there minis and only the odd 1 or 2 cought my eye, depressing as it is i dont think there is any other mini wargame that i can get into than warhammer. Flames of war i find slightly interesting but not enough to play. I know no other company to look into, even if its just minis to paint and no more gamming id be happy.

Manchu wrote: But the point is that PP, Malifaux, and Infinity (et alia) aren't really alternatives at all for some of us.

They ARE alternatives mate you may not like them today for a particular reason but on this little hobby called wargamming that we share the more years you have under your belt the more your tastes shift from a to b.
These games are like dormant virus and when you least espect your playing something you never liked before hehehe

For example I just started to having fun in a scale I never really liked 15mm and Im having a blast.

Tabletop Gaming News is a great website for a 'sheltered' GW gamer to find out about other game makers. They update daily with every little tidbit of mini based news. It is a neat way to see just how many other people are out there.