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Redbeard wrote:I went to the movies last night. Tickets for my wife and I were $32, and with a snack, the total was over $40.

The movie is now over. I enjoyed it while it was on the screen, but not as much as I could have. I cannot sell my stubs on eBay for anywhere near what I paid for them.

Complain about shoddy rules design all you want and I'll back you. But whining about prices going up is like whining about the tide. It happens in all industries, in all aspects of life. Expecting miniatures to be different is ridiculous.

There's as much point in using a trip to the cinema as an example as going on about getting wrecked at the weekend. Your comparison is way off. You might as well include the pizza that I scoffed at the weekend, or the meal out.

Redbeard wrote:I went to the movies last night. Tickets for my wife and I were $32, and with a snack, the total was over $40.

The movie is now over. I enjoyed it while it was on the screen, but not as much as I could have. I cannot sell my stubs on eBay for anywhere near what I paid for them.

Complain about shoddy rules design all you want and I'll back you. But whining about prices going up is like whining about the tide. It happens in all industries, in all aspects of life. Expecting miniatures to be different is ridiculous.

My only issue is while I understand it's worth it, and I get it happens everywhere, the problem is that at one point I just don't have the budget to keep up with the wargame that got me into the hobby, and that's the point I look up and think about the other wargames that would cost me less that I could feasibly manage to buy. I'm a student in college, I can't afford the hobby as the prices continue to climb, which is a shame.

Redbeard wrote:I went to the movies last night. Tickets for my wife and I were $32, and with a snack, the total was over $40.

The movie is now over. I enjoyed it while it was on the screen, but not as much as I could have. I cannot sell my stubs on eBay for anywhere near what I paid for them.

Complain about shoddy rules design all you want and I'll back you. But whining about prices going up is like whining about the tide. It happens in all industries, in all aspects of life. Expecting miniatures to be different is ridiculous.

Most price increases coincide with a cost increase in either production or distribution. GW somehow predictably has an increase to the tune of 5%-25% annually. You can look at several other companies that somehow put out comparable (or in my opinion, better) quality miniatures for less money, and extrapolate that either GW is terrible at running their business, or they just want to pocket more and more profit out of a business that already has an insane margin. Or both. Probably both.

As for "whining", when a company is doing something stupid, people have two options: complaining, and not buying their products anymore. While some will just complain and continue their purchasing, and others will stop purchasing but be silent, it's really only effective to do both. Stop giving them money, let them know WHY you're not giving them money, and even convince others to join you in this endeavor. This is the only scenario that leads to potential changes in the terrible behavior.

Wolfstan wrote:
There's as much point in using a trip to the cinema as an example as going on about getting wrecked at the weekend. Your comparison is way off. You might as well include the pizza that I scoffed at the weekend, or the meal out.

You miss the point. It's not comparing the cost of going to the movies with the price of GW, it's comparing the cost of the movie ($32!) to the cost of going to a movie a couple of years ago. Prices go up.

Brother Gyoken wrote:
Most price increases coincide with a cost increase in either production or distribution. GW somehow predictably has an increase to the tune of 5%-25% annually.

Have you tracked the prices of metal and plastic over the last few years? Maybe GW's annual price increase is related to the annual increase in their costs.

You can look at several other companies that somehow put out comparable (or in my opinion, better) quality miniatures for less money

I have done this in another thread. I have not seen any company that puts out comparable quality (in my opinion) miniatures for less that GW. In fact, the discussion in those threads was not that GWs prices were unfair at all, given the comparisons with other miniature producers, but rather that they're better at making you want more of them. PP prices aren't any better than GWs, but you can play a game with fewer. Freebooter miniatures aren't any cheaper, but you don't need 100 to make an army. And so on.

and extrapolate that either GW is terrible at running their business, or they just want to pocket more and more profit out of a business that already has an insane margin. Or both. Probably both.

First of all, I think you're being misled about the "insane margin" - that's covered in another thread too. Secondly, GW still being here 30 years later is evidence to me that they're not terrible at running their business. Where is FASA these days? Where is Grenadier? Where is Ral Partha? What happened to TSR? Oh yeah, they went bankrupt and got bought-out.

You can continue your misguided rants, I suppose. But just because prices have risen to more than you can afford doesn't mean that those increases are unfair, or terrible business decisions. Unless you have access to their sales numbers and cost numbers, you're doing little more than pissing in the wind. Everything is up in price, you cannot blame GW for the world economy. And it's smart business to charge enough to make a profit, rather than going bankrupt like so many other gaming and miniature companies have.

Redbeard wrote:


Have you tracked the prices of metal and plastic over the last few years? Maybe GW's annual price increase is related to the annual increase in their costs.

The onus is on you, if you're going to claim it. Please show evidence this is happening.

And you know what? Even if that is the case, explain how Drop Pods, which contain a LOT more plastic material and packaging, cost 12 dollars less than Terminators? Are the drop pods made of special, cheaper plastic? Are they losing money selling drop pods out of the goodness of their heart so they can turn just a tiny profit on the termies?

I have done this in another thread. I have not seen any company that puts out comparable quality (in my opinion) miniatures for less that GW. In fact, the discussion in those threads was not that GWs prices were unfair at all, given the comparisons with other miniature producers, but rather that they're better at making you want more of them. PP prices aren't any better than GWs, but you can play a game with fewer. Freebooter miniatures aren't any cheaper, but you don't need 100 to make an army. And so on.

Here, I went to Chaosorc and randomly clicked an item in the PP section:
http://chaosorc.com/hordes-circle-orboros-circle-orboros-stoneward-woldstalkers-p-12338.html

Find me 5 metal GW minis packaged for 25 or less. Hell, terminators are 5 plastic models for 45 dollars.

http://chaosorc.com/wm-protectorate-heavy-warjack-plastic-boxed-set-p-14044.html

Comparable size to a Dreadnought... almost 10 bucks cheaper.

Hell, go look at the Mantic fantasy stuff. I did yesterday and it blew my mind, the difference in price and quality.

First of all, I think you're being misled about the "insane margin" - that's covered in another thread too. Secondly, GW still being here 30 years later is evidence to me that they're not terrible at running their business. Where is FASA these days? Where is Grenadier? Where is Ral Partha? What happened to TSR? Oh yeah, they went bankrupt and got bought-out.

You could attribute these to bad business decisions. Kind of like the ones GW is making currently. Remember, all those companies had a period of time where people got sick of their crap.

You can continue your misguided rants, I suppose. But just because prices have risen to more than you can afford doesn't mean that those increases are unfair, or terrible business decisions. Unless you have access to their sales numbers and cost numbers, you're doing little more than pissing in the wind. Everything is up in price, you cannot blame GW for the world economy. And it's smart business to charge enough to make a profit, rather than going bankrupt like so many other gaming and miniature companies have.

Similarly, you can't make the assertation that poor wee GW is only trying to eke out the tiniest of profits because you don't have the numbers either. BUT I can look at the world economy and see inflation hasn't been accounting to 5-25% every year for the past 15+ years!

Edit: oh, because I missed it the first time... screw you and your "can't afford it" garbage. I can afford it just fine. I choose to make a moral stand. What a dick thing to say.

Redbeard wrote:It happens in all industries, in all aspects of life. Expecting miniatures to be different is ridiculous.

I think you've said this several times now and it's actually not true. There are deflationary times (we went through a big one 2H2008-1H2009) when prices generally go down. The core of your argument is that prices must increase in response to fundamental economic relationships, including higher raw material costs and expenses. That's not a truly valid argument in this case as the margin on GW product is HUUUUUGE. Raw material cost could double and GW would still net a very considerable margin. Would it be less margin? Yes, but there is absolutely nothing that entitles a company to always have the same-or-better margin. GW will net what the market is willing to bear.

I went to the movies last night. Tickets for my wife and I were $32, and with a snack, the total was over $40.

The movie is now over. I enjoyed it while it was on the screen, but not as much as I could have. I cannot sell my stubs on eBay for anywhere near what I paid for them.

Over time, tabletop wargaming should be cheaper than any one-off recreational activity like movies or eating out x/month IF your purchases remain either constant at a lower expenditure total or trend towards zero.

However, tabletop wargaming in general has a much higher initial cost, or barrier to entry, than eating out or going to the movies. Assault on Black Reach is, I think, about $150 for the 'beginner kit', or about $75 split between two people. That's 4x as much as if those two people wanted to go to the movies or have a nice dinner or a couple drinks out. The significance here I think lies in GW's fundamental strategy of recruiting a new hobbyist and selling a large package initially, with far less focus on retention and repeat business.

At the margin, wargaming still probably looks unattractive relative to other Saturday night out events to most people. That's significant because wargamers appear to generally exist in a lower income bracket, be they trade skill professionals, students, or younger dependents. The 'at the margin' is significant, because often the decision on how to spend their next $30 is what they want to do NOW. Buying a Wych squad will still net them a Wych squad two weeks from NOW, but it must compete with the opportunity cost of not seeing the movie/eating dinner/hitting the bars/going on a date NOW.

GW's financial results would suggest that their prices have indeed shifted further and further to the left on the demand curve, showing that their target demographic is making those decisions 'at the margin'.

The bottom line is that GW know that they have such a tied in customer base they can do what they want with prices. Their response to lost sales is to penalise the remaining customers by covering the loss in revenue by increasing prices.

Wolfstan wrote:The bottom line is that GW know that they have such a tied in customer base they can do what they want with prices. Their response to lost sales is to penalise the remaining customers by covering the loss in revenue by increasing prices.

But this doesn't actually work. Their volume is down more than their prices are up. Cost cutting and efficiency increases are ways to compensate, but generally you hit a threshold on how much you cut and how efficient you can run.

Redbeard wrote:Complain about shoddy rules design all you want and I'll back you. But whining about prices going up is like whining about the tide. It happens in all industries, in all aspects of life. Expecting miniatures to be different is ridiculous.

The price increases are actually not the major beef I have with GW.

It's the legal action against fan sites that in no way, shape or form lay any claim to GW IP.
It's the ten year old Codex without an update.
It's the FAQ that takes three years to come out.
It's the nerfing and outright nullification of models that happens with Codex and FAQ releases.
It's the downright piss-poor Codex authoring and editing.
It's the complete lack of support for the long term hobbyist over the short term gaming "tourist".

These are the things that taken together as a whole have caused me to move to Malifaux, Dust Tactics, Firestorm Armada, and other gaming systems. In some ways it's just soured the gaming hobby as a whole for me and caused me to spend more time with motorcycle riding, target shooting and various other hobbies I also enjoy.

The Green Git wrote:The price increases are actually not the major beef I have with GW.

It's the legal action against fan sites that in no way, shape or form lay any claim to GW IP.
It's the ten year old Codex without an update.
It's the FAQ that takes three years to come out.
It's the nerfing and outright nullification of models that happens with Codex and FAQ releases.
It's the downright piss-poor Codex authoring and editing.
It's the complete lack of support for the long term hobbyist over the short term gaming "tourist".

These are the things that taken together as a whole have caused me to move to ...Firestorm Armada, ...

Whoof, you are a glutton for punishment if you think Spartan Games is a significant upgrade over GW in balance, authorship, or updates. That's 'IMO' of course, but I would rate my brief experience with SG as worse than GW.

Brother Gyoken wrote: The onus is on you, if you're going to claim it. Please show evidence this is happening.

There are currently at least six threads involving GW pricing. The link is in one of them. The evidence has been shown. If you want to see it for yourself, you'll need to track down that link on your own, because I can no longer keep the number of threads straight or what has been said in which one.

And you know what? Even if that is the case, explain how Drop Pods, which contain a LOT more plastic material and packaging, cost 12 dollars less than Terminators? Are the drop pods made of special, cheaper plastic? Are they losing money selling drop pods out of the goodness of their heart so they can turn just a tiny profit on the termies?

So you don't understand anything about pricing. Why is a Space Marine Commander priced twice as much as three space marines?

There are static costs to factor in, as well as variable costs. In order to recoup the static costs, they have to price the models based on how many they expect to sell. You expect to sell more marines than marine commanders, because players need more marines than they need commanders, hence the higher unit price on the commander whose fixed cost is higher. My guess is that the fixed costs on the drop pod are lower than on the terminators (remembering that paying the sculptors is a fixed cost).

Here, I went to Chaosorc and randomly clicked an item in the PP section:
http://chaosorc.com/hordes-circle-orboros-circle-orboros-stoneward-woldstalkers-p-12338.html

Find me 5 metal GW minis packaged for 25 or less. Hell, terminators are 5 plastic models for 45 dollars.

I see you randomly found the most boring and bland five models you could. They're pretty comparable to tyranid spore mines.

Speaking of which... hey, ten spore mines for $16. Guess that wasn't a hard challenge to meet.

http://chaosorc.com/wm-protectorate-heavy-warjack-plastic-boxed-set-p-14044.html

Comparable size to a Dreadnought... almost 10 bucks cheaper.

Actually, that's quite a bit smaller than a dreadnought. And here we have three comparably sized models for $45, so that would be what, $20 cheaper on a per-model basis?

Hell, go look at the Mantic fantasy stuff. I did yesterday and it blew my mind, the difference in price and quality.

I've seen the Mantic stuff. It is nicely priced, but I don't think the sculpts are at GWs level yet. That's a matter of opinion obviously. They're certainly acceptable models for filling in the ranks with.

Similarly, you can't make the assertation that poor wee GW is only trying to eke out the tiniest of profits because you don't have the numbers either.

Actually, you can see those numbers. They're in their financial reports. And they're not making a huge profit. They're making a reasonable profit for an international company, but certainly not an unfair one.

BUT I can look at the world economy and see inflation hasn't been accounting to 5-25% every year for the past 15+ years!

Neither has GW. Some specific models have seen an increase. Others saw no increase at all. Some models they went out of their way to make cheaper - killa kans (now in plastic), juggernauts (now in plastic), and so on. But you've got your blinders on and don't see that, you just want to be upset.

Edit: oh, because I missed it the first time... screw you and your "can't afford it" garbage. I can afford it just fine. I choose to make a moral stand. What a dick thing to say.

When half the people in a thread say, "I can't afford it anymore", why is it a dick thing to repeat that they can't afford it? As for your moral stand, I'm glad you've chosen to make it over something as important as toy soldiers, and not over something more trivial like the rising costs of healthcare or clean drinking water. Good for you, very moral.

So everyone loves to speculate, and I like to do a bit myself.

I have experience in running a manufacturing and sales business, so maybe have a little insight to how things work.

First off, Games Workshop and Citadel are companies based in the UK. What this means is that everything they do has extra cost called "Value Added Tax". Even the stuff they ship to the rest of the world has this built in extra cost.

Second to consider, cost of wages, income taxes, and corporate taxes in the UK, can be pretty high compared to other places. Did any of these go up recently in the UK?

Resin is not a terribly expensive material, but neither is white metal. So that is pretty much a wash.

I figure that they are paying people to sculpt some new stuff, as it seems that armies get revamped every so often, and Eldar are in the works. Some of the metal models will be resculpted and then made into regular injection molded plastic. Cost of making an injection molds of this size? Average $10,000 USD each.

I just inspected the boxes from some stuff I have around, and nowhere does it say where the minis are made. It is reasonable from the way the company is structured that most of manufacturing happens in the UK.

If they sent the molds off to China, Mexico, or somewhere else, they could cut the costs way down.

Costs of materials also fluxuate, injection molds are made of highgrade machine steel, minis are made of plastics which are a petroleum based product.

The list goes on and on.

Would it be nicer for the company to speak more openly about what is happening and why, sure.

Advice, buy more stuff second hand off ebay or similiar. There will always be someone who wants to buy the newest models, are will be selling off the old ones to help offset the cost.

Redbeard wrote:There are currently at least six threads involving GW pricing. The link is in one of them. The evidence has been shown. If you want to see it for yourself, you'll need to track down that link on your own, because I can no longer keep the number of threads straight or what has been said in which one.

That's not really how debate works but whatever. I'll assume you're making it up, since your posts seem to be all about assumptions.

So you don't understand anything about pricing. Why is a Space Marine Commander priced twice as much as three space marines?

There are static costs to factor in, as well as variable costs. In order to recoup the static costs, they have to price the models based on how many they expect to sell. You expect to sell more marines than marine commanders, because players need more marines than they need commanders, hence the higher unit price on the commander whose fixed cost is higher. My guess is that the fixed costs on the drop pod are lower than on the terminators (remembering that paying the sculptors is a fixed cost).

The line I quoted was about the rising costs of materials. Whether or not they are going to sell 3 commanders or 3,000 commanders has no bearing on your assertion that the prices are rising because of materials. Also love the condescension of "Ohhh this PLEBE understands NOTHING about pricing." If you want to talk about point value/cost ratio, neccessity to cost ratio, or any of those other things, that is fine. But don't say the prices are rising because of materials, and then become smarmy about a totally different topic when I point out the fallacy of your statement.

I see you randomly found the most boring and bland five models you could. They're pretty comparable to tyranid spore mines.

Speaking of which... hey, ten spore mines for $16. Guess that wasn't a hard challenge to meet.

That really was literally the first models I found when clicking PP and just random sections. Now how about finding models people use?

Actually, that's quite a bit smaller than a dreadnought. And here we have three comparably sized models for $45, so that would be what, $20 cheaper on a per-model basis?

Comparable to what? What are you talking about?

Actually, you can see those numbers. They're in their financial reports. And they're not making a huge profit. They're making a reasonable profit for an international company, but certainly not an unfair one.

Turning a profit and yet they are demanding more money, demanding an extra slice of pie for international orders, and delivering a product inferior to metal in "Finecost." All while other companies are cutting into their market share. Sounds like a brilliant strategy to me.

Neither has GW. Some specific models have seen an increase. Others saw no increase at all. Some models they went out of their way to make cheaper - killa kans (now in plastic), juggernauts (now in plastic), and so on. But you've got your blinders on and don't see that, you just want to be upset.

Another assumption about me! I'll have you know that I've gone through three editions, having nearly my entire army phased into obselecence overnight (Emperor's Children in 3rd), and 3 different armies with this horrid company. I'd say if I "just wanted to be upset" the time for that would have come a long time ago. This is just my final straw. But you just want to be an avid GW apologist (aren't baseless assumptions fun?)

When half the people in a thread say, "I can't afford it anymore", why is it a dick thing to repeat that they can't afford it? As for your moral stand, I'm glad you've chosen to make it over something as important as toy soldiers, and not over something more trivial like the rising costs of healthcare or clean drinking water. Good for you, very moral.

You were replying to a post I made, in detail. Don't tell me you weren't addressing me. You're right about the moral stand though. People can only be upset about one thing. I do absolutely nothing like donate time and money to local and national charities, act as local chairman for another charity, etc. Another assumption! Also I'm glad you basically resorted to the equivalent of "Warhams is srs bzns amirite?" at the end. It really illustrates your mentality even above and beyond the dripping condescension.

Brother Gyoken wrote:You were replying to a post I made, in detail. Don't tell me you weren't addressing me.

I wasn't. I was addressing a post you made in a much larger thread. But don't worry, I've put you on my ignore list, so you won't need to worry about being addressed any further.

Redbeard wrote:

Brother Gyoken wrote:You were replying to a post I made, in detail. Don't tell me you weren't addressing me.

I wasn't. I was addressing a post you made in a much larger thread. But don't worry, I've put you on my ignore list, so you won't need to worry about being addressed any further.

Edited because the initial response was really too rude. Instead, I'll say "I'll try not to lose any sleep over your cutting and running."

Why are you guys even arguing over this, just agree to disagree....no one can tell you how you should or shouldn't feel about GW, or how to spend your money.

A discussion is one thing, but when it turns nasty, it's time to cut your losses.

Delephont wrote:Why are you guys even arguing over this, just agree to disagree....no one can tell you how you should or shouldn't feel about GW, or how to spend your money.

A discussion is one thing, but when it turns nasty, it's time to cut your losses.

Eh, I just feel compelled to reply when words like "whining" are tossed out about a totally valid complaint.

Brother Gyoken wrote:Eh, I just feel compelled to reply when words like "whining" are tossed out about a totally valid complaint.

I know, comments like that have been flying around a lot because of these issues, and the responses have been just as insulting....I just think it's high time people simply move on. Everything that's ever going to be said about the GW changes has been said, now is just the time to take stock and move on with your hobby.

Plus, it's harldy like GW is gonna lose any sleep over you guys tearing each other apart.....they'll most probably just rummage through the pockets of the dead and dying looking for your wallet (joke )

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:So everyone loves to speculate, and I like to do a bit myself.

I have experience in running a manufacturing and sales business, so maybe have a little insight to how things work.

First off, Games Workshop and Citadel are companies based in the UK. What this means is that everything they do has extra cost called "Value Added Tax". Even the stuff they ship to the rest of the world has this built in extra cost.

.

VAT is claimed back at each stage of the supply chain. Only the final retail customer gets stuck with the bill. If he is outside the EU, he doesn't have to pay VAT.

GW US produces models for the USA and Canada in the USA.

Redbeard wrote:I have done this in another thread. I have not seen any company that puts out comparable quality (in my opinion) miniatures for less that GW.

victrix.
thats all I have to say

and my hate for GW has very little to do with what GW has done recently, its what GW has been doing for the past several years, what they do recently has little impact on me as the stupid [edited by Mod] decisions they make have no effect on someone who long ago realised that having anything to do with GW in any form is a complete waste of time money and effort.

Does anyone remember when GW used to do deals where you bought 3 items and got the cheapest 1 free? What happend to that!

I agree with H.B.M.C. The sooner GW falls the better. Then someone else can pick up the broken company and put it back together in a way that doesn't make people hate them.

Does anyone else think its crazy that GW minitures are "worth" 100 times their weight in silver?

The problem IMO is that there are too many young people on this site. Too many young shavers who weren't around in the 1980s. Believe me, miniature wargaming was in the dark ages. If you wanted miniatures, you had to grow them or forge them yourself! The arrival of Steve Jackson, Ian Livingston, GW, citadel etc was like Paris Hilton turning up at your house at 3am and wanting to have your babies!

We owe GW a debt. I grant you that in recent times, they have stabbed some loyal customers in the back, but all in all, things could be a lot worse. With imagination, you can make savings and still play the game. Mantic are good. Sand is free at the beach. Buy at mortar and pestal and grind up rocks to make all types of basing materials etc etc

You obviously never made a pilgrimage to the Minifigs store in Victoria during the 70s to buy their SF and fantasy figures.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:If you wanted miniatures, you had to grow them or forge them yourself! The arrival of Steve Jackson, Ian Livingston, GW, citadel etc was like Paris Hilton turning up at your house at 3am and wanting to have your babies!

I don't remember vomiting profusely at the first release of real miniatures and the rise of those companies.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The arrival of Steve Jackson, Ian Livingston, GW, citadel etc was like Paris Hilton turning up at your house at 3am and wanting to have your babies!

Wait, I'm confused, the context makes it sound like you think it's a good thing, but then you used a nightmarish scenario for the simile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Damn it pretre, you ninja'd my poor joke.

htj wrote:Damn it pretre, you ninja'd my poor joke.

Nah, it's cool. The point bears emphasis.

Petre, like the 1960s, if you can remember it, you were never there!

as for victoria in the 1970s, I was distracted by Doctor Who.

All I'm saying is that some things are bad, but they could be a lot worse. As GW price rises go, this one's not bad.

In the words of Picard, "The line must be drawn here this far no further!"

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Petre, like the 1960s, if you can remember it, you were never there!

Geeze, how hard is it to keep the R in my name. lol
And no, I was not there in the 60's...

My apologies to Pretre.

My advice to everyone in a nutshell. Keep calm. Breath in, breath out. and shop around for savings and don't buy WD.