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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Keep calm. Breath in, breath out.

This part cannot be emphasized enough.

I know wargaming is serious business, but people need to learn to deal with change, stress and even positive things in more productive ways. Raging against everything and anything isn't a great way to go through life.

That's a good point. With a little luck, this'll give some of the smaller miniature companies a shot in the arm financially, as people start to diversify there spending habits, moving away from purchasing solely from GW.

It does feel like GW has changed a lot from when I first got into this hobby o' ours, but it makes my sad, rather than angry.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
We owe GW a debt.

*picks myself up from the floor*

No.

htj wrote:That's a good point. With a little luck, this'll give some of the smaller miniature companies a shot in the arm financially, as people start to diversify there spending habits, moving away from purchasing solely from GW.

It does feel like GW has changed a lot from when I first got into this hobby o' ours, but it makes my sad, rather than angry.

True that, when I started, GW was an awesome company (in my eyes), and the local store's red-shirts were some great guys who would recommend not buying too much at once if it meant we wouldn't get around to painting it all, and who really got the fluff. They left the company, and the replacements are great guys too, but push you towards a purchase much more.

EDIT: Also, the way people diversify could also mean more wargamers in general, as people who are initially interested in non-GW wargames but were turned off by lack of players see more variety.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The arrival of Steve Jackson, Ian Livingston, GW, citadel etc was like Paris Hilton turning up at your house at 3am and wanting to have your babies!

Cheap, drunk, attention-whoring, stupid, and shallow?

I know, I know, two other jokes about this already, but it needs to be emphasized.

One thing I should note, I can build a competitive Warmachine army for around $200. That's a lot less than most 40K armies. After all, if you want to be competitive in 40K right now what do you use? Vehicles. And how much do those cost? A lot. As someone who likes to make good lists and play at events, I prefer to not have to spend many times more than someone who is just making a casual army. I've tallied up the costs, and a lot of 40K armies cost over $600, and that's on a discount. Sorry, but I see no reason to spend that much on this. I cannot find a functional GW army that I can afford. With PP I can, and that's why I'm going that route.

My 25 point Cryx army cost me around $130 and that is including a rule book, templates and dice. The current mech environment with 40k really hurts the wallet (especially when I bought 2 chaos land raiders last year). From what I gather, I'll need to make fewer purchases with Warmachine as changing up a list is as simple as switching warcasters (which is a $9-23AUD purchase at maelstrom) as opposed to buying bucket loads vindicators or razorbacks for a 40k list.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The problem IMO is that there are too many young people on this site. Too many young shavers who weren't around in the 1980s. Believe me, miniature wargaming was in the dark ages. If you wanted miniatures, you had to grow them or forge them yourself! ..

We owe GW a debt.

I was there, I got my first lead fix with Ral Partha and Grenider, GW didn't get me till well after Battletech, As far as debts go, they've gotten their pound of flesh and more. These days the only of theirs I feel like spending money on is their Black Library stuff where they have way to much competition to pull the stunts they do in the minis market.

On other notes.. just because some of GW's newer buisness's practices are done elsewhere in other industries, (though I will say I have never heard of any other company insisting on a shopping cart ban, or trying to use copyright to restrict the use of product shots ) does not mean we have to like or approve of those practices.

But I don't much care, I'm way to happy with Privateer right now..

Mike Noble wrote:One thing I should note, I can build a competitive Warmachine army for around $200. That's a lot less than most 40K armies

This is a valid point. The buy-in is much lower in WM although this is somewhat offset by the fast pace of change in WM.

Personally, I find it worse value for money because the amount of models for that spend is so low. It doesn't feel like good value, to me at least.

From the recent BoLS article :

Orks - $548 for 80 infantry and 7 vehicles
Legion - $193 for 26 infantry and 1 vehicle?

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The arrival of Steve Jackson, Ian Livingston, GW, citadel etc was like Paris Hilton turning up at your house at 3am and wanting to have your babies!

See, I accepted this analogy until you used Paris...if you said "Avril or Natalie Portman," you'd have my vote

I don't "Owe" GW anything.


Your rose colored glasses are the right tint, though. I'll give you that.


Ral Partha was the company that had the D and D figs. They were exactly like the pictures in the Monster Manual. THOSE games of Yor branched up into Ma and Pa companies and revolved around fun, diversion, and a time where we had groups of players that were moire interested in having fun, not just keeping up with the Jones's and getting the new lickey and chewie brand spanking new shinies.

GW's were an entirly different animal. I specificly remember seeing them, seeing a balls out inovative game system, and saying, " This is MUCH BETTER then D and D. You at least get something other then a !@#ton of books to look at that arn't going to go south every month."

Point being, GW made it a POINT to sell themselves as the Be All, End All in gaming, then turn around and litereally pee all over the gamer base that they made it a point to tell you time and again...

"Games Workshop Group PLC, a London Stock Exchange quoted company which was listed in 1994, has been in business for 30 years. At the core is a niche business – Games Workshop. This business designs, manufactures and markets a hobby based upon collecting, modelling, painting and tabletop gaming with model soldiers (the “Hobby”). The Games Workshop business makes the vast majority of the sales and profits of the Group."

They did this by of all things, first and fore most was with Quality product, relationship with the fan base, and a complete total package in gaming, hobby building, and models.


NOW? Finecost is putting a hat on a pig. The issues run so deep, so vile, that they have completly lost touch with thier gamer fan base, the consumer base, and in reality.

If it were just the prices, people wouldn't have rallied and outright revolted like they have. It is the culmination and pushback that has been long in coming, and it's finally here.

We owe GW an asskicking, not a debt. They were just one of over 6 or 8 hundred game companies, In 94, when they wen't corperate, you can go back and ask Russ what we said was going to happen back in the day. With the advent of second edition, we saw the upscale, then the change from the Rogue Trader days to corperate packaging of 2 fig's as opposed to the whole unit, in the tune of 5 to six models.
We saw the design team, however crude, design a kitbox, that along with thier urging, that "YOU THE PLAYER NEED TO CONVERT TO YOUR SPECIFIC ARMY. HERE'S THE KIT, HAVE FUN."

Till now, where your expected to just fork over hundres of dollars for a "SUPER HEAVY" that can only be used insuch and such a game.

As for talking about Steve Jackson, Ian Livingston, and the rest? Ask them what they think. Do they think the game would have blown up as big as it has if they would have pulled all of this crap on the gamer base?

Heres them talking about WHERE THEY CAME FROM-

http://www.viceland.com/int/v16n12/htdocs/steve-jackson-ian-livingstone-283.php?page=1


Keep on making excuses for them, though. It's not like they even care that that they even have a problem.

So, if GW came up with it, what was Chainmail? a miniatures wargame from before DnD?

Elector wrote:So, if GW came up with it, what was Chainmail? a miniatures wargame from before DnD?

Chainmail, if I remember correctly, was the wargaming precursor to D&D. Gygax and others came up with the game, and a lot of the monsters and spells from Chainmail made their way over into D&D when it was released.

Of course, that was before my time. I was introduced to D&D with 3.5.

Mike Noble wrote:One thing I should note, I can build a competitive Warmachine army for around $200. That's a lot less than most 40K armies. After all, if you want to be competitive in 40K right now what do you use? Vehicles. And how much do those cost? A lot. As someone who likes to make good lists and play at events, I prefer to not have to spend many times more than someone who is just making a casual army. I've tallied up the costs, and a lot of 40K armies cost over $600, and that's on a discount. Sorry, but I see no reason to spend that much on this. I cannot find a functional GW army that I can afford. With PP I can, and that's why I'm going that route.

'Can' being the key word. Their are also a lot of competitive builds that cost a lot more, and not everyone feels like playing with that 200.00 build.

The average Warmachine player in my stores walks in with 400-600 in miniatures in their case, with a lot more at home.

I see your point, though, that for someone on limited funds, PP can be a less expensive game. I just rarely, if ever, see anyone stopping at that point.

mikhaila wrote:The average Warmachine player in my stores walks in with 400-600 in miniatures in their case, with a lot more at home.

o.O;;; Walks in? I'd need a lorry to carry that much...and I've been playing since escalation, I rarely hit the FLGS for gaming night with more than a platoon case, and that's enough for a good 25-35 pt game, 50 if I push it... my entire collection is 4-5 cases, and it's just under 300 figs...

mikhaila wrote:The average Warmachine player in my stores walks in with 400-600 in miniatures in their case, with a lot more at home.

I play four factions, and am a bit of a completionist when it comes to Khador, and I don't think I even own that many Warmahordes models...

EDIT: Just checked my spreadsheet. 555 models total, with 161 of those being Khador. Slightly more than I thought, but still pretty damn impossible to get to the store without a wheel barrow or two.

I suspect mikhalia was talking about value there, gentlemen, not volume.

Redbeard wrote:
I see you randomly found the most boring and bland five models you could. They're pretty comparable to tyranid spore mines.

Speaking of which... hey, ten spore mines for $16. Guess that wasn't a hard challenge to meet.

Actualy spore mines cost $28

Individual GW models are among the most expensive at every price level.

Basic infantry are between £1 and £2.50.
"Character" models and medium sized monsters are about £8 to £15.
Transports are fairly reasonable at about £20.
Big kits (Trygon, Land Raider) are about £35 to £50.

You can find cheaper among Historicals, and cheaper among SF/Fantasy. The larger GW models arguably offer more elaboration and detail to justify their price.

Warmachine is possibly the most expensive and rivals GW, however you don't need as many models to make an army.

A typical 40K army needs fewer cheap models (basic infantry) and more expensive models than a Historical army.

Overall GW games are expensive. It doesn't make them a bad company. There is plenty of alternative choice. Also you can play GW rules with different, cheaper models if you like.

Kilkrazy wrote:Overall GW games are expensive. It doesn't make them a bad company.

No. It's all the other things that make them a bad company.

I guess a lot of the anger comes from loyal fans that feel let down after years of loyalty to their hobby.

I remember when GW was way smaller and made board games like 'Kings and Things' 'Talisman''Car Wars' etc.

Great games that I still own and have in my cupboard. It was just a different company when Ian and Steve were in charge.

The models were more basic and the rules far less streamlined like they are today.

Back then it was run by gamers, it grew and was successful. It made money and listened to its customers.

Now its run by accountants, it more polished, visible to the public and is cost effective. It makes money and listens to the share holders.

It is important to note that GW has been in business for 30 years, not the people running the show today.

I have a huge collection of White Dwarf and the decline in GW that everyone is talking about is evidenced so well in the pages of White Dwarf over the years.

I still go back and read the old White Dwarfs for time to time. The White Dwarf of today is just crap.

As a previous poster mentioned, I remember when the did the buy three models and get the cheapest one free deal.

My favorite promotion was the Army Collector Cards that rewarded you with models when you completed a section and a free codex when complete.

At the end of the day the bottom line is that the only thing that the company heads care about is the interests of the GW share holders.

Its what there paid to do and they are doing there job.

The simple fact is that that while GW has changed over the years on all levels its the IP that is the thing of real value to fans and share holders alike.

Company's come and go but the IP will live on forever.

For all the countless hours of fun with mates over GW products I sincerely say thank you to Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone.

With out them even this post would not exist.

infinite_array wrote:

Elector wrote:So, if GW came up with it, what was Chainmail? a miniatures wargame from before DnD?

Chainmail, if I remember correctly, was the wargaming precursor to D&D. Gygax and others came up with the game, and a lot of the monsters and spells from Chainmail made their way over into D&D when it was released.

Of course, that was before my time. I was introduced to D&D with 3.5.

Exactly my point. I was calling him out.

GW advanced the hobby, it came up with some brilliant IP, but it's not "the granddaddy of all miniature wargames".

Elector wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

Elector wrote:So, if GW came up with it, what was Chainmail? a miniatures wargame from before DnD?

Chainmail, if I remember correctly, was the wargaming precursor to D&D. Gygax and others came up with the game, and a lot of the monsters and spells from Chainmail made their way over into D&D when it was released.

Of course, that was before my time. I was introduced to D&D with 3.5.

Exactly my point. I was calling him out.

GW advanced the hobby, it came up with some brilliant IP, but it's not "the granddaddy of all miniature wargames".

Ah, ok. Gotcha.

Now, I'm a relative noob when it comes to the hobby, but I think I'll attribute that to my age. I do wish, however, that Steve Jackson & Co. would return, or at least people like them. It seems like these guys had a real love for the hobby, and could turn GW back to the 'making games because it's what we love to do' attitude it seems like they used to have.

^Agreed, agreed so much. With something like wargames, the company really should take the "we did it because we really really wanted to do it" approach. When consumers see that they have that attitude, we buy from them, both as support, and because we know we can trust them to not to mess with our game.

It's a shame, I wish I was a bit older so I could have enjoyed the hobby from back then, but I was introduced to 40k in 5th ed, so i can't really compare as much.

Elector wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

Elector wrote:So, if GW came up with it, what was Chainmail? a miniatures wargame from before DnD?

Chainmail, if I remember correctly, was the wargaming precursor to D&D. Gygax and others came up with the game, and a lot of the monsters and spells from Chainmail made their way over into D&D when it was released.

Of course, that was before my time. I was introduced to D&D with 3.5.

Exactly my point. I was calling him out.

GW advanced the hobby, it came up with some brilliant IP, but it's not "the granddaddy of all miniature wargames".

Of course GW wasn't the first. Warhammer were rules made to use their fantasy and LOTR models in games like what they played with historicals. So was chainmail. Both were attempts to adapt historical wargame rules to fantasy figures. You can easily trace wargames back a long, long ways.

That said, GW absolutely advanced the hobby beyond what it was, and was the gateway for a couple of generations to get into the hobby. They still advance the hobby. And they acted like a wedge, allowing many other companies to open up the hobby further. One thing GW is excellant at is training up ex-GW employees. We now have them scattered all over the place creating new games and miniature companies.

I remember people writing about proto-fantasy-RPG games in Military Modelling in the early 1970s. The rules were adapted from Ancients.

mikhaila wrote:One thing GW is excellant at is training up ex-GW employees. We now have them scattered all over the place creating new games and miniature companies.

Amen to that, it's a good thing those people were "let go", otherwise their talents would go to waste there.

Assuming GW carry on with just WH/40K and LoTR, there isn't much for a designer or writer to do any more.

Really well written piece on the blog below, I think it sums up how a lot of veteran players feel about the current situation:

http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/05/games-workshop-are-fun-police.html

Yeah, that's a well-written summary of why people feel anger towards GW.

Thanks for posting the link Pacific

edited for spelling