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infinite_array wrote:

~UnDeAd~ wrote:I am only 17 , and no i havent just got into the hobby for 2 years , i have been purchasing and playing with warhammer 40k from GW since i was 8 and i believe i will continue to do so untill i am unable to , not every 17 year old has things bought for them , i know values. I work hard for the money i earn and spend on GW just as much as any of you.

But that's the thing. You're 17. Hell, I'm only two years older than you and I'm feeling the squeeze thanks to college.

Just wait until you've got student loans to pay back. A house to worry over. Insurance to pay. I'm not at that point yet, but I'm sure a lot of Dakkites are older than you and I, and have much more to worry about.

At that point, miniature wargames becomes a way for them to let off steam and just have fun. They get to ignore the whole 'being an adult' thing, and push little plastic soldiers, lovingly painted, across imagined wartorn battlefields.

Im 19 aslo and iv really got to reconsider my wargaming spending, especially with GW. Now I dont have a student load to pay back but the £260 I got each month wasnt just spent on gaming(wish it was though) after paying everything off(travel costs and rent to parents) I had roughly £70 to myself which doesnt go far when you have games for xbox/Pc you want aswell.

infinite_array wrote:'Finecost'

This should absolutely stick.

I think, by now the camps have been set, the time for talk is over....there is now the "I can't stand GW camp" who will either continue to play the game with what they have, or will move on....or the "I Support GW camp", who will carry on like nothing has happened.

We should all respect each others opinions now, and stop trying to convince one another to change our minds either way.

I agree with most, these for and against discussions are getting boring and going nowhere. I'm firmly in the first camp, but I'm happy for people who support GW and wish them all the luck. There's no right or wrong way to enjoy your time, your money or your hobby.

If you can't understand why people dislike GW, then you're simply not on their wave-length....beyond that theres nothing to understand. Either GWs policies and pricing works for you or it doesn't....it's not rocket science.

Delephont wrote:I think, by now the camps have been set, the time for talk is over....there is now the "I can't stand GW camp" who will either continue to play the game with what they have, or will move on....or the "I Support GW camp", who will carry on like nothing has happened.

We should all respect each others opinions now, and stop trying to convince one another to change our minds either way.

I agree with most, these for and against discussions are getting boring and going nowhere. I'm firmly in the first camp, but I'm happy for people who support GW and wish them all the luck. There's no right or wrong way to enjoy your time, your money or your hobby.

If you can't understand why people dislike GW, then you're simply not on their wave-length....beyond that theres nothing to understand. Either GWs policies and pricing works for you or it doesn't....it's not rocket science.

Agreed , Smart decision

Delephont wrote:I think, by now the camps have been set, the time for talk is over....there is now the "I can't stand GW camp" who will either continue to play the game with what they have, or will move on....or the "I Support GW camp", who will carry on like nothing has happened.

We should all respect each others opinions now, and stop trying to convince one another to change our minds either way.

I agree with most, these for and against discussions are getting boring and going nowhere. I'm firmly in the first camp, but I'm happy for people who support GW and wish them all the luck. There's no right or wrong way to enjoy your time, your money or your hobby.

If you can't understand why people dislike GW, then you're simply not on their wave-length....beyond that theres nothing to understand. Either GWs policies and pricing works for you or it doesn't....it's not rocket science.

Yup more than agree!

I don't think that we should be arguing at all , after all we all here for the same reason Warhammer fantasy games etc... it's supposed to be fun

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:I'm probably the only person on this site that actually likes GW. I have no problem with their prices. Nobody forces me to buy their stuff. Only average I probably spend about $200 on models per year, which works out about 3 bucks a week. I probably spend more on fly swatters than models.

This may sound strange, but in recent years, GW price rises were probably the best thing that happened to me. It made me improvise and increase my enjoyment of the hobby.

For example, why buy terrain why you can make your own. Why buy modelling sand when you can hop down to the beach and get a ton of the stuff. Why keep old models that were picking up dust in the attic when you can sell them and buy new ones.

Keep your loose change and put it in a piggy bank or tin. After a few months you can buy a regiment no probs.
Why buy White dwarf when there is a ton of articles on sites like dakka. Why buy GW products when there are dozens of other firms making good, if not better stuff.
etc etc.

I don't want to upset people on this site, but please

STOP ******* WHINING about GW! use a bit of imagination. As it had been pointed out by others, they are not the hobby. Rant over. sorry for any offence caused.

Every time you apologise for GW they lose a customer. Keep apologising, I'll wait.

Table top minature wargaming IS fun!

When Mantic Games replaced thier metal undead cavalry with resin , they doubled up on minatures because the resin was half the price of the white metal.

TEN fine detailed resin undead cavalry for £25.

There are lots of companies that listen to thier customers and provide products thier customers want.
These companies cater for specific demoghraphics ,they cater for specific groups of gamers and /or collectors.

GW plc are listening to the customers that like what GWplc wants.
GW plcs target demoghraphic is shrinking year on year...

Delephont wrote:I think, by now the camps have been set, the time for talk is over....there is now the "I can't stand GW camp" who will either continue to play the game with what they have, or will move on....or the "I Support GW camp", who will carry on like nothing has happened.

We should all respect each others opinions now, and stop trying to convince one another to change our minds either way.

I agree with most, these for and against discussions are getting boring and going nowhere. I'm firmly in the first camp, but I'm happy for people who support GW and wish them all the luck. There's no right or wrong way to enjoy your time, your money or your hobby.

If you can't understand why people dislike GW, then you're simply not on their wave-length....beyond that theres nothing to understand. Either GWs policies and pricing works for you or it doesn't....it's not rocket science.

Well said, Delephont. There is no need for people to hate each other because of their various attitudes towards GW.

I will say that in the six years I have been reading DakkaDakka I have seen a wave of "I hate GW" every time they push a big price increase, C&D a fan site, or make some other kind of bad PR move.

Never have I seen the sheer quantity and bandwidth of complaints as I have in the past fortnight. I think this is partly because DakkaDakka has grown such a lot, but also because GW have achieved a perfect storm of bad PR with a series of controversial moves. They also released the bad news over several days, instead of all at one go.

If people want to hate GW, then is their god given right. I will not think any less of them because of it. But with all due respect to other posters, everybody has bills to pay. Heck I'm up to my neck trying to pay road tax, VAT, national insurance, rent, gas, water, electricity, pet food, brand new underwear etc etc
But I still get by in the hobby. Mantic make good stuff. Flames of war is a terrific game etc etc. I was involved in the hobby long before GW appeared on the scene, so I've learned to get by. All i'm saying is use a bit imagination.

Infinity array makes some good points, but the southern hemisphere will adapt and survive. They'll find a way round the embargo. Even if I have to get a boat and row to New Zealand with a bunch of cheap miniatures, they will get round this!

With respect it seems like some people are not facing up to the possible consequences.

You may be correct DIKNT, and chaps down under might find a way around the embargo. One route is to spend the AUSD on something else.

That may not matter to GW. But as I said earlier, there is a scenario where long term GW will go belly up. No amount of people saying all is well in the GW garden obscures the fact that, medium to long term, decisions GW are making does not make for sustainable business practice imho.

All things being equal, an annual price hike and cost cutting to provide the shareholders with a dividend is a poor strategy.

People are already using their imaginations by finding other games and alternative models to use. That surely is not good for GW

Wow, I leave this morning the thread one its first page and return on the 4th.

So there seems to be opinions on both sides, but, despite turning 18 just recently, GW is already turning too rich for my blood (and this is before I start piling up most of my expenses), so while I love the hobby to death, I'll be buying less, gaming in friendly matches with my college buds just as much, but buying less.

The prices here are huge (and our tax rate is enormous where I live, so at one point I have to ask myself if the 80 gunship is worth 80 bucks).

You know, I think we're seeing a general cool-off on Dakka and the internet in general.

Most people have realized that, by now, GW will only listen to our wallets.

DINKT, I do admire your standing by GW. I picture you as the dutiful midshipmen, saluting your captain even as the ship sinks. Don't get me wrong, either - I love GW's IP. I will continue to buy Black Library novels. I'm looking into picking up a bit of Forgeworld over the summer. I still need a couple of models to finish a decent Salamanders list.

But you have to realize, if the Aussies and the others do manage a way around GW's new marketing strategy, then GW still loses money. And what happens in 2-3 years, when GW continues their annual price rise? What happens when a Tactical squad is 30 pounds a box?

Anyway, I think this'll be my last post on the subject. Gentlemen, ladies, enjoy your hobby. I know I'll be enjoying mine.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Infinity array makes some good points, but the southern hemisphere will adapt and survive. They'll find a way round the embargo. Even if I have to get a boat and row to New Zealand with a bunch of cheap miniatures, they will get round this!

see this is my problem. People shouldnt HAVE to.

Delephont wrote:I think, by now the camps have been set, the time for talk is over....there is now the "I can't stand GW camp" who will either continue to play the game with what they have, or will move on....or the "I Support GW camp", who will carry on like nothing has happened.

We should all respect each others opinions now, and stop trying to convince one another to change our minds either way.

I agree with most, these for and against discussions are getting boring and going nowhere. I'm firmly in the first camp, but I'm happy for people who support GW and wish them all the luck. There's no right or wrong way to enjoy your time, your money or your hobby.

If you can't understand why people dislike GW, then you're simply not on their wave-length....beyond that theres nothing to understand. Either GWs policies and pricing works for you or it doesn't....it's not rocket science.

Can we make a third camp? The "I want to come back to GW because I love the universe, the armies, the models and I used to love the company, but they keep making such bad decisions that they're driving me away" camp. That's where I belong; and many others as well. If they listened to us, fixed what we all have such a problem with (hell, if they just decided NOT to go ahead with this current move of the past week and not jack up the prices of old models, just charging more for new ones), I'd be back to saying how awesome they are. I think the newer models do deserve to charge a bit more (not a lot) because a LOT more effort is put into making them beautiful. Example, the new Savage Orcs are amazing, and I'm okay with paying $29 for ten of them. I'm not okay with paying $29 for ten basic orcs, as they are old models and shouldn't have been bumped up by over 50% markup. Glad I only run 40 in an army and found 2 boxes of 19 for a total of $70 last week

Personal thoughts on this, tell me how good this sounds and if you guys would be okay with something along these lines for prices (this is my price recommendation that I feel would be MORE than fair, and would probably make a lot of people happy:

Characters on 20-25mm bases: $15
Characters on 40-50mm bases (or cavalry bases): $20
Unit upgrade models (Telion, Lemartes, Apothecaries, etc) $12
Elitist units of 10 (including space marines, greatswords, various guard from fantasy, black orcs, genestealers, etc): $35
Horde units of 20 that are 6+ ppm (empire troops, orcs, orks, scouts, gargoyles, IG infantry, etc): $35
Horde units of 20 that are <6 ppm (goblins, clanrats/slaves, skinks, gaunts): $30
Cavalry units of 5: $25
Units on 40mm bases of 3: $35
of 5: $50 (slight discount)
Models on 50mm bases: $40
Chariot based models: $15-20 each
Models on larger than 50mm bases (giants, stegadons, arachnarok, Hellpit, etc): $45-50
Small Transport Tanks (Rhino, Wave Serpent, Raider, Devilfish, chimera, etc): $30
Small gunning tanks (Predators, Vindicators, Leman Russes, Fire Prisms, Falcons, Ravagers, Venoms, etc): $40
Large Transport Tanks/assault vehicles (Land Raiders, Monoliths, etc): $50

Obviously there are models that aren't fully covered here, like razorbacks and such, but this is a general idea for model prices that I feel would be completely fair. Sure, some of the prices are a bit more expensive than they are now, but most are a lot more reasonable and players would be paying a little less per unit, but nothing outrageous to rip a hole in GW's pocket. This is just my thought. Comments on price suggestions welcome

What about a fourth camp, the "GW is a corrupt and morally bankrupt company that shows nothing but contempt for its customer base and therefore everyone should be warned to stay well clear of them" camp.

But there is good in GW, HBMC: I can feel it. If they let go of their hate, I know they can be turned

HMBC, I agree with you, also Mr.Timetowaste85, What units of IG come 20-strong in a box? I remember tyranids came in 32 back in the day, but now... I think 12 is the official highest number of anything from GW (fine, 15, counting rippers or scarabs if youre from the necron side) 33 USD for zerkers, 25 USD for gaunts and 35USD for necron warriors. average... 31 USD... about 37 CAD. Overall, not a bad price, but then nobody fields just 12 gaunts... I mean, I remember when it was $32 CAD for a box of 32 gaunts, 16 of each. not this extortionate $30 cad for a piddly 12 gaunts. I also remember having the parts to assemble three ripper bases too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ha... haha .....ha misread a part of your post there..

the only problem is that unit upgrades are also characters. Other than that, your pricing scheme seems fairly solid...

The only issue comes out to be as the quality improves. The new dark eldar.... wow... THOSE are quality, the vanilla space marines, while okay, are not phenomenal. And the tyranid gaunts have not changed since 3rd edition... so i think there are a few other considerations to be made.. anyway, i actually need to make like Mr. Lee and jet, as I am late.

I was just making recommendations for what I feel would be a great setup instead. From what I understand, Cadians and Catachans used to come 20 to a box. I don't play IG (hate them, personally) but I know from other posts that they used to be bigger boxes for a cheaper amount

I forgot about swarm bases: 2 bases and the parts to make them for $10 seems fair to me: 5 bucks a base for swarms

Just my personal thoughts. Maybe if enough people agreed with me, I'd send a mailed suggestion to GW about those of us who would want to get back in if prices were reasonably adjusted.

H.B.M.C. wrote:What about a fourth camp, the "GW is a corrupt and morally bankrupt company that shows nothing but contempt for its customer base and therefore everyone should be warned to stay well clear of them" camp.

+1 to this

Oh, another thing... being Canadian our dollar has been almost on par with the USD for quite awhile now... and I'm spending $7 more on a box of grey knights... WHATS UP WITH THAT! lol

Cryage wrote:WHATS UP WITH THAT! lol

Greed.

Over a period of around 4 years Wizards of the Coast increased the price of Star Wars Miniatures by 50%. There was some tutting on the forums but I never read any rants against them like I've been reading recently about Games Workshop - and WOTC are not exactly a well loved company, they too instigated legal action against fan websites.

Only time will tell for GW if they have made the right decision. I don't believe any of us here really have the facts, and by that I mean the market reseach and the full financial breakdown behind GWs recent decisions.

I dont hate GW.

When I saw the announcment about the embargo and realised that I would be paying essentialy double, I had this kind of sinking feeling. Personaly I can still afford GW at Australian RRP and I even buy from my local GW occasionaly to help support it.

But this news kind of sucked all the joy out of 40k for me. I suddenly dont have any enthusiasm for new projects, list building, theory hammering, conversions etc.

So Im going to finish of my D.eldar and thats it, I wont be buying any more minatures. Ill still play with my Tau/D.eldar in my gaming group when I get the chance but thats it.


On the other hand Im now discovering the Joy that is Infinity. Its kind of a liberating feeling to play a non GW war game. Ill be buying two starter sets and introducing as many people in my area as i can to it. Feels like fun to me

Ugavine wrote:Over a period of around 4 years Wizards of the Coast increased the price of Star Wars Miniatures by 50%. There was some tutting on the forums but I never read any rants against them like I've been reading recently about Games Workshop - and WOTC are not exactly a well loved company, they too instigated legal action against fan websites.

Only time will tell for GW if they have made the right decision. I don't believe any of us here really have the facts, and by that I mean the market reseach and the full financial breakdown behind GWs recent decisions.

Luckily, I actually have the financial data right here.



As you can see, yacht sales have their first spike in April. In order to buy a second yacht by the September high point in order to keep up with the Rockefellers, they need to increase the prices by roughly the amounts announced last week.

What?
I can't see a January sail!!

~UnDeAd~ wrote:I don't think that we should be arguing at all , after all we all here for the same reason Warhammer fantasy games etc... it's supposed to be fun

No, we are all here for the same war gaming hobby. GW is NOT "a" or "the" hobby. Warhammer is just one small piece of war gaming.

That's like saying Nintendo is the video game hobby, and if you don't play Nintendo games, you aren't in the video game hobby.

H.B.M.C. wrote:What about a fourth camp, the "GW is a corrupt and morally bankrupt company that shows nothing but contempt for its customer base and therefore everyone should be warned to stay well clear of them" camp.

Agreed. Massively.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:What?
I can't see a January sail!!

timetowaste85 wrote:
Can we make a third camp? The "I want to come back to GW because I love the universe, the armies, the models and I used to love the company, but they keep making such bad decisions that they're driving me away" camp. That's where I belong; and many others as well.

I'm part of this camp, it describes my feelings about this perfectly. Now I plan to go to Flames of War. From what I read, Battlefront has better support and better rules than what GW offers, and it costs less to get a full army going.

I went to the movies last night. Tickets for my wife and I were $32, and with a snack, the total was over $40.

The movie is now over. I enjoyed it while it was on the screen, but not as much as I could have. I cannot sell my stubs on eBay for anywhere near what I paid for them.

Complain about shoddy rules design all you want and I'll back you. But whining about prices going up is like whining about the tide. It happens in all industries, in all aspects of life. Expecting miniatures to be different is ridiculous.