Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't buy it. Their trend has been towards simplifying, not adding more rules. Adding a whole new phase? Seems unlikely. Also, assaulting and then shooting just makes no logical sense.

"Sarge, they are rushing us - permission to open fire?"
"No, first we fight them with knives! Then, if we live... we can try shooting!"

Some of this does sound like wishlisting, but a lot of what it does sounds like the changes made to fantasy.

-a lot of changes requiring erratas? Yup, happened in fantasy
-psychic powers falling under categories? Happened in fantasy
-going back to older rules/more in line with previous editions/huge overhaul? Yup, 8th edition fantasy is more like 5th edition fantasy (except heroes)
-Different numbers needed to hit different types of units and characters within units? Yup, same with fantasy (only these apply as the "Look out sir" rules).
-Armor AND invul saves? Yup, fantasy has it-armor and ward though.
-changes to 'feel no pain'? Yup, fantasy had changes to regen-also, expect invul saves OR feel no pain, not both.

It does sound like they are semi-stream lining the systems together, probably to influence fantasy only players to join 40k and vice versus. And, I have to say, being an assaulty player, I'd have no problem with assaults before shooting. A lot sounds like wishlisting, but a lot sounds plausible. Liking the multiple chaos codexes too. And the only thing I don't like is a DA box set, but since I use DA robed bodies for my BT...sure, bring it on.

I'm not as jaded against these rumours as I usually am. I like the ideas presented, even the IW bypass, I mean it brings a new level of strategy into the game with more rock-paper-scissors rather than a one-list-beats-all affair (SW parking lots, leafblower lists etc). Sounds like wishlisting on my part but I do want these rumours to come true. Only thing I'm looking for here is a ballpark release date.

itsonlyme wrote:if they make it like a game within a game then you might have a point

itsonlyme wrote:if they make it like a game within a game

itsonlyme wrote:game within a game

gameception...

Ouze wrote:I don't buy it. Their trend has been towards simplifying, not adding more rules. Adding a whole new phase? Seems unlikely. Also, assaulting and then shooting just makes no logical sense.

"Sarge, they are rushing us - permission to open fire?"
"No, first we fight them with knives! Then, if we live... we can try shooting!"

It's likely not like that at all, it's probably more along the lines of fantasy/2E 40k, where assault moves are carried out in the movement phase and reactions done then as well, then shooting is conducted. When the actual fighting takes place probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference, having it before shooting isn't too bad.

Remember, theoretically all this stuff is supposed to be happening at the same time, and is broken up for the sake of playability.

Ouze wrote:I don't buy it. Their trend has been towards simplifying, not adding more rules. Adding a whole new phase? Seems unlikely. Also, assaulting and then shooting just makes no logical sense.

"Sarge, they are rushing us - permission to open fire?"
"No, first we fight them with knives! Then, if we live... we can try shooting!"

It makes perfect sense to me, as it is now an elite troop list with elite guns can wipe out half or more of what they are going to fight with shooting, especially hordes vs flamers, then charge in and get the extra attack, making charging THE important thing to do in 5th. This way you cant get double dip casualties. Guard will stand and shoot, then next round probably eat a charge. Orks will forgo shooting with their shootas, and you will see the return of slugga choppa goodness. And marine armies that mop up on both counts such as grey knights shooting str 5 stormbolters and then charging with silly power weapon goodness wiping out about anything will eat the nerf stick as its one or the other.

Its also a good way to make troops more important, and since there scraping the bottom of the stupid amount of vehicles sold recently barrell, now its time to change to stupid expensive troops that you get less of in a box now a days for more money. Gun lines and heavy infantry should make a comeback. Not hard as nails elite troops all rolling around in candy shell pillboxes you have to crack open first to do any real damage.

JHall wrote:Wow, there is so much BS in this list I don't even know where to start. The clearest thing that would show that it is all BS is the whole change to the Hit Chart. They have used the same chart for all their games for 30 years. I don't see them changing a fundamental part of the game now.

As the above poster said- Shenanigans!

And Fantasy used Guess Range, no pre-measuring, fixed charge distances, chargers go first, woods/units block line of site, etc. ever since first edition in the early 1980's. I doubt anyone thought that 8th edition was going to abandon all of those.

Vaktathi wrote:At the mention of a "designer who left the company", I can't help but think this is something of Andy Chamber's.

While I'm not hot on all of these changes, others sound pretty cool.

This is actually about Alessio, who left for Mantic-he was the 5th edition rules designer (or one of them). Sorry if someone else mentioned later. Slowly working my way through the pages

I like many of these changes and I would applaud a third edition like rewrite of the core rules to be better, but this seems far more extreme then is reasonable and GW is not a brave company.

I'm torn. On one hand, these rumors scream of an amateur wishlist, and I'm inclined to write them off as such. On the other hand, I had a similar feeling about the Warhammer Fantasy 8th Edition rumor leaks, and well, we saw how that turned out...

The current Warhammer 40k rules represent a damn fine tabletop gaming system that just needs a little bit of clean-up in order to work out some minor balance concerns. I hope they don't wreck that with a bunch of destructive changes.

Vaktathi wrote:
It's likely not like that at all, it's probably more along the lines of fantasy/2E 40k, where assault moves are carried out in the movement phase and reactions done then as well, then shooting is conducted. When the actual fighting takes place probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference, having it before shooting isn't too bad.

Remember, theoretically all this stuff is supposed to be happening at the same time, and is broken up for the sake of playability.

It's a big difference actually. Modern/meta 40k is mech---and assault before shooting makes it stronger. Right now, I can get my Terms/Jump Packs/whatever up next to a rhino---blow it up in the shooting phase, then assault whatever gets out.

If assault were to happen before shooting, you could not blow up---then assault the occupants.

But that is what happens in war...you shoot up the vehicle, pillbox, troops in a trench, then move in for assault/close up shooting. Even back in the olden days, you marched forward, fired, then fixed bayonets and charged...not the other way around.

If this were true, I'd like to see the mechanics of how everything works together, because as one poster put it...it nerfs marine armies who are neither the best at shooting nor the best at assault, but together the two makes marines work...And I don't see them nerfing marines.

As a Necron player, I don't know how well the rules will work for the army. Gonna have to wait and see what 5th edition upgrades they'll get before I decide whether I like the rules or not. If Necrons don't get an upgrade until after 6th edition, and yes, I know that the rumors put the release around November this year, then the rule change won't hurt too much I guess...

They dont need more dexs, they need to update the current ones faster.

Pinning seems op. Changing the hit chart seems wrong.

How did you get this information?

itsonlyme wrote:

ThirdUltra wrote:Such as assaults before shooting which was a 2nd edition rule

That wasn't 2nd ed, psyhic phase was before shooting and then close combat, I imagine the idea of combat before shooting is so you can't shoot and assault a unit which would explain why grey knights have strength 5 stormbolters (may as well be standard ), proper flying rules would certainly be interesting and I think would be followed by a new marine codex including storm ravens.

Absolutely incorrect.

In 2nd edition, you declared charges first (if you were in range, you charged/moved the models to contact), then it was movement, then shooting and psychic phase was last.
The psychic phase revolved around dueling with psychic power cards; force weapons could store these cards for bonuses in close-combat or for later use.
The powers such as Ultimate Force and Energy Drain were the cards to have in your hand during the psychic phase.

I still have the 2nd edition rulebooks from Dark Millenium.

Maybe you're mixing Warhammer Fantasy with 2nd edition...?

However, it still is a lean towards 2nd edition if assaults were the first phase and like you mentioned above, it may be an issue where you cannot shoot what you're about to assault first.

AgeofEgos wrote:If assault were to happen before shooting, you could not blow up---then assault the occupants.

It depends on your perspective. With these prospective rules, I could take my Trygon, assault your Rhino, explode it, then have all my Gaunts, nearby Spore Pods, and the Trygon itself shoot at the contents.

Assaulting vehicles via Chainfists and such will become more important.

This is all assuming transports will remain as they are right now.

General Hobbs wrote:

But that is what happens in war...you shoot up the vehicle, pillbox, troops in a trench, then move in for assault/close up shooting. Even back in the olden days, you marched forward, fired, then fixed bayonets and charged...not the other way around.

This is all true, but the enemy gets a chance to respond to your actions.

With this new supposed structure, you'll move, shoot, and wait for your opponent to reply. Your opponent will either stand ground and shoot back or abandon position. If they stand ground, you move and assault them next turn (and then consolidate into their trench).

Absolutionis wrote:

AgeofEgos wrote:If assault were to happen before shooting, you could not blow up---then assault the occupants.

It depends on your perspective. With these prospective rules, I could take my Trygon, assault your Rhino, explode it, then have all my Gaunts, nearby Spore Pods, and the Trygon itself shoot at the contents.

Assaulting vehicles via Chainfists and such will become more important.

This is all assuming transports will remain as they are right now.

So, GW is trying to implement rules that hurt Space Marines, but help Tyranids? These rules are just covered in heresy.

FalkorsRaiders wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:

AgeofEgos wrote:If assault were to happen before shooting, you could not blow up---then assault the occupants.

It depends on your perspective. With these prospective rules, I could take my Trygon, assault your Rhino, explode it, then have all my Gaunts, nearby Spore Pods, and the Trygon itself shoot at the contents.

Assaulting vehicles via Chainfists and such will become more important.

This is all assuming transports will remain as they are right now.

So, GW is trying to implement rules that hurt Space Marines, but help Tyranids? These rules are just covered in heresy.

Don't worry. By the time they release Codex: Iron Hands, all Space Marines will have Jump Pack Terminators with Iron Chainfists and Iron Dreadknights with Iron Deadknight Chainfists of Ironic Iron.

I tend to think "GW wouldn't do something this drastic..." then I remember it's GW...

Absolutionis wrote:

AgeofEgos wrote:If assault were to happen before shooting, you could not blow up---then assault the occupants.

It depends on your perspective. With these prospective rules, I could take my Trygon, assault your Rhino, explode it, then have all my Gaunts, nearby Spore Pods, and the Trygon itself shoot at the contents.

Assaulting vehicles via Chainfists and such will become more important.

This is all assuming transports will remain as they are right now.

You must roll more 6s than I do. Usually, if I'm close enough to use a 6" moving unit in assault v. a transport---it's because the other guy really messed up or let it happen. Either way, I'm needing 6s provided it moved 7+ inches.

Regardless, I'll take getting shot by a Trygon over being locked in assault with it any day .


But I doubt there is any truth to it anyways...

Aaawww... and I was just getting used to 5th...

This sounds like they are moving back to 2nd

DA as the starter set marines? Why would they include a chapter specific set as the kicking off point for new players?
AOBR was touted as being Ultramarines of course with moulded on Ultramarine icons; that turned out to be a complete load and I call the same for this. They'll be generic marines so anyone can use them easily but still being different enough to encourage existing marine players to get them as unique minis.
Maybe they'll do something interesting like a plastic thunderfire cannon, who knows, but DA? Don't see it.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

6th edition 40k rumors from blood of kittens.

What!? Is some sort of divination being used ?

I seriously don't like this direction GW are taking.
For crying out loud the week before rule + the WD announcements are bad enough imho.
But this as a result? It is an abomination!
Just make a statement on the internet and spare the little cats' lives!

Haha good one

Tiered skills sounds a lot like the system that infinity uses.

The lead designer leaving because his rules were not approved? Exactly what happened with 4th Edition with Andy Chambers and as a result we have been playing a game that is essentially the same rule set (with minor tweaks) for more than 15 years. While I personally would enjoy a much needed kick up the bottom to those rules, personally I think it's against the character of the company to do so. I would use the word 'entrenched'.

A more complex shooting table makes far less sense than simply introducing shooting modifiers like in fantasy.

-Loki- wrote:

gorgon wrote:I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Tyranids get one heckuva errata, lol.

Why? Tyranids seem pretty well suited to those rules. Fleeting gaunts would be harder to hit, thus more survivable, and with the removal of random movement, more reliably fast. Trygon Tunnel and Pheromone trail would become easier to use, since you could designate units to come on after your Trygons and Lictors. Standard cover only being 5+ means that Tryanid shooting has a better chance to damage a vehicle.

Well actually, a number of things sound good for my all-reserve builds. It's more about the admission that Tyranids weren't built with 6th in mind. So they'll probably suffer in other ways too. Just don't want to see them fall behind SW, DE, BA, etc.

Absolutionis wrote:

AgeofEgos wrote:If assault were to happen before shooting, you could not blow up---then assault the occupants.

It depends on your perspective. With these prospective rules, I could take my Trygon, assault your Rhino, explode it, then have all my Gaunts, nearby Spore Pods, and the Trygon itself shoot at the contents.

Assaulting vehicles via Chainfists and such will become more important.

This is all assuming transports will remain as they are right now.

True, and if they become deathtraps again -- or at least passengers suffer more from having their ride destroyed -- all bets are off in a major way.

I know they're saying the rules are done -- and in fact they probably do have them well fleshed-out at this point -- but I still wouldn't be surprised if there are things in that list that don't make the final cut. Guess we'll see.

This all sounds awesome. If they stop the embargo and annual price hikes I might even be tempted back.

Nagashek wrote:A more complex shooting table makes far less sense than simply introducing shooting modifiers like in fantasy.

It sounds like that's what they're doing. If so, thank God. It's a welcome idea! Needing a fixed number, no matter how far away, how much the target moves, etc is a lazy, entry-level shooting system. I understand cover helps to alleviate this, but it doesn't seem to be working as is.

I had a random thought though: what if cover saves were taken after rolling to hit, but before rolling to wound? The models judge their distance with these new BS modifiers, fire, then any intervening cover catches some of the bullets and the bullets that make it on to the squad roll to wound as normal. It would make it so a 5+ cover wouldn't hurt armies like Nids at all (would be better than now) and they would still get their armor save. Thoughts? Maybe GW is working cover saves to be something like this. I would hope so, as it makes a good deal of sense.

A more complex shooting table makes far less sense than simply introducing shooting modifiers like in fantasy.

For those yung 'uns who don't know about this, 40K had shooting modifiers years ago and GW did away with them starting with 3rd Edition (1998) to simplify the game and make it play faster, which it did. Games of thousands of points play hours faster now than they did with half as many points under 2nd Ed. rules. Now that people play with larger armies than ever compared to years ago it would make no sense to introduce something new or re-introduce something old to the game that would significantly slow it down. As another user with similar decades of experience said early on in this thread, "Wow, there is so much BS in this list I don't even know where to start." The only threads with more worthless info right now are the (closed) SoB thread with all the usual spam from a single user and the GK FAQ thread with the "flat-Earther" user spamming in every other post that he has incontrovertible proof that falchions give +2 attacks. LOL.

timetowaste85 wrote:I had a random thought though: what if cover saves were taken after rolling to hit, but before rolling to wound? The models judge their distance with these new BS modifiers, fire, then any intervening cover catches some of the bullets and the bullets that make it on to the squad roll to wound as normal. It would make it so a 5+ cover wouldn't hurt armies like Nids at all (would be better than now) and they would still get their armor save. Thoughts? Maybe GW is working cover saves to be something like this. I would hope so, as it makes a good deal of sense.

It benefits marines and such the most, as they'll get both their armor and cover save, while lesser troops like boyz and guardsmen won't be getting an armor save most of the time anyway.

Let's see - as to the validity of the rumors, BoK does a pretty good job of posting legitimate rumors. It may be a little early to really judge, but I'm not sprinkling too much salt.

I don't like the idea of shooting modifiers. Someone compared it to Flames of War, which is correct, but FoW does it better. You simply take the training of who you're shooting, and add +1 for each one of 4 criteria if they are met. With the 40k rumors, we'll have to check the BS of the shooter, then the unit type of the target, how fast they were moving, other modifiers, etc.

I'm also concerned about the size of the rulebook. If it includes flyer rules, modular rules, superheavy rules, generic psychic powers, and the other rules, then how large will it be? GW rulebooks are about 50/50 rules and fluff - can anyone imagine buying a $80-$100 rulebook?

I'm also concerned about the size of the rulebook. If it includes flyer rules, modular rules, superheavy rules, generic psychic powers, and the other rules, then how large will it be? GW rulebooks are about 50/50 rules and fluff - can anyone imagine buying a $80-$100 rulebook?

I can imagine GW selling one at that price after the $74.25 US Fantasy rule book. That's the most plausible thing I've heard here yet.