Commandments of IG Army Building

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**Bastirous666**

H.B.M.C. wrote:Quted for truth

There shouldn't be ground rules on what to take (except Iron Discipline - that's mandatory), but more a list of things that you should never take, like, say:

1. 90% of the Doctrines.
2. Ratlings.
3. Sanctioned Psykers.
4. Tech-Priest Enginseers.
5. Commissars (90% of the time).
6. Storm Troopers (80% of the time Vets are better).
7. Did I mention the Doctrines?
8. Grenade Launchers. Ever. 2 points more gets you S7 AP2.
9. Missile Launchers. Ever. Unless your local meta-game has you facing hordes of Necrons and footslogging Marines endlessly.
10. Mortars. Ever.

And a few other odds and ends. Abiding by these will still allow for a variety of lists, from Armoured Company, to MechInf, to standard mixed Guard, to All-Infantry Guard.

BYE

fair enough. in reading all the other posts though it seemed like this was more saying what to take rather than what not to take

**H.B.M.C.**

smart_alex wrote:@HBMC I agree with all but #2 i have had ratlings kill daemon princes before.

And I've seen Firewarriors defeat the Avatar of Khaine in HTH, doesn't make them good HTH fighters.

Anecdotal evidence is meaningless.

smart_alex wrote:Ratlings can be good if you use then correctly.

The 'correct' way to use Ratlings is to spend the 110 points it costs you for a full unit on something else. Furthermore, as they're 0-1, and require a whole Doctrine point, they're even more of a waste.

BYE

**Polonius**

Rats belong in the same category as Commissars, Stormtroopers, and Remnant squads: choices that while not completely awful, still require a compelling reason to justify taking. Ratlings get better in larger games, and are actually decent at what they are designed to do: provide cheap sniper rifles.

The downsides that HBMC pointed out make them a good unit to steer people away from.

**Ozymandias**

What about with the new 5th ed rules? Sniper rifles get rending, that ups them in my opinion (not enough to ever buy the crappy models but at least they're better).

Ozymandias, King of Kings

**Polonius**

Well, I imagine 5th edition is going to change more about how to build a good 40k army then if Ratlings are bad enough to never be taken.

I mean, in a vacuum, yeah, if Rats got rending, they'd be a great unit. However, with the ways that LOS, screening, infiltration, cover, and Killpoints end up will also affect the quality of the unit.

**Tacobake**

10 Sniper Rifles (that don't take up a Command Platoon spot) or 3 lascannons that doesn't sound so bad to me.

Alternatively you could get 10 guys with one lascannon and one plasmagun.

Granted I don't know if they are worth a doctrine point.

**H.B.M.C.**

For something to be worth a doctrine point, it has to have a significant impact on your army. Something that's stuck at 0-1 won't do that, even with Rending Sniper Rifles.

I'll never understand how GW can think that Sniper Rifles are not a precision weapon but a battery-style weapon that requires full squads of people to score 6's. Sniper Rifles should hit on 2's, wound on 2's, be AP2, ignore screening of all sorts, and on a roll To Hit of 4, 5, 6 the player gets to pick what model takes the hit (before rolling to wound). They would come in units of 1, for around 35 points each. We've been using them that way for years now, and Snipers actually act like *gasp* Snipers... not fething rifle teams...

BYE

**smart_alex**

well I will say this much. I have not run the rats in a long time. I do miss them at times but I do just fine without them. Out of all the "don't take these" units I would say they probably would be the first ones I cross out. But I would probably agree that they may belong on that list.

**Ozymandias**

That's a pretty mean unit for only 35 points. I could see on a roll of a '6' you can pick the model but on a 4+ he's likely to earn back his points by the 2nd turn. I like your direction though.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

**H.B.M.C.**

As I said, they don't come in squads, you might have 1 or 2 in your army, and you usually have to take something else to get them (like a unit of Eldar Rangers or Marine Scouts, or even a whole Infantry Platoon).

BYE

**Bastirous666**

snipers are way to hard to use in the game as the real world use for them couldn't really be translated easily into game terms. the closest thing the game has to them now is a vindicare assasin

**H.B.M.C.**

And he sucks too.

110 points (or 120, can't remember), plus his Inquisitorial Chaperone? Not worth it.

BYE

**Centurian99**

Jeez, RL and AdeptiCon takes me away from Dakka for a few months, and all the IG players come out of the woodwork to come up with something good.

About the only rule out of the last ten that I think needs modification is #9. It should be:
9. Missile Launchers. Unless almost every single heavy weapon that you take is a missile launcher, and you don't skimp on AP2 or less special weapons.

Anyone remember Mauleed's IG build?

**H.B.M.C.**

Ah yes, forgot about that. Funnily enough the same thing can be said for Mortars. If you take them to the exclusion of all else (and I really do me all else) they can be dangerous.

BYE

**Bastirous666**

especially with how they scatter. i've seen mortar heavy weapon teams do work on khorne berzerkers, and even hordes, but that rarely happens so i'd still refrain from using them

**H.B.M.C.**

They're junk weapons - no denying that - but with the example I gave above, we're talking 30-35 Mortars, and that's it in the army. Mortars every where. It will kill stuff, if only because you're throwing that much at them.

But there are better ways than doing that. I'm sure the army that takes an equal number of Heavy Bolters will do better.

BYE

**Tacobake**

a Mortar team just isn't worth 80 points.

**MinMax**

Mortar Teams for 50/65 points would be way better.

No damn way a Mortar is worth the same as a Heavy Bolter.

**H.B.M.C.**

They're worth 40... maybe.

BYE

**Agamemnon2**

I don't see it mentioned, but it bears reiterating that nobody, under any circumstances, should take Ogryns. They're, in my personal opinion, the worst unit in the game, which, even in this, the worst armylist in the game, manages to succeed in distinguishing themselves in awfulness.

**Bastirous666**

ogryns can be used well if held in a chimera all game until they need to do some counter charging, but that instance is rare, so yes they are crap. I'd take rough riders over them, but then again both units seem more like for fluff purposes than actual game effectiveness.

**Corpsman_of_Krieg**

Agamemnon2, I disagree on one count. Yes, Ogryns do suck, but I do believe that the Imperial Guard can make a reasonably competitive army.

They're not top tier by any means, nor are they tournament-level broken like Falcdar or TMCs, but they can beat up on most armies just as well as others.

Not to go too off topic, but if one were to fix Ogryns without changing their cost, I'd say they need to have +1 Toughness and Attack, as well as the FNP USR.

CK

**H.B.M.C.**

Bastirous666 wrote:ogryns can be used well if held in a chimera all game until they need to do some counter charging

Most enemy assault units come with an S8 powerfist in some form or another. S8 = dead Ogryn unit in 1-2 rounds of combat.

Ogryn aren't just bad, they make other units in your army worse just by being around.

BYE

**Agamemnon2**

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Agamemnon2, I disagree on one count. Yes, Ogryns do suck, but I do believe that the Imperial Guard can make a reasonably competitive army.

They're not top tier by any means, nor are they tournament-level broken like Falcdar or TMCs, but they can beat up on most armies just as well as others.

The Guard's problem is that you could prune their army list by 20, 30 or even 40% without affecting many competitive armies. The list is full of chaff. In the Elites slot alone, there's one good choice (Veterans) and four horrible ones (Ratlings, Ogryns, Engineseers, Storm Troopers). Weapons choices are a bad joke, there's never an excuse to field a special weapon that isn't a plasma gun or a meltagun. All three advisors are overpriced for what they do, Commissars only somewhat, Priests horribly so, and even Psykers manage to be not worth their 12-point cost.

**Bastirous666**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Bastirous666 wrote:ogryns can be used well if held in a chimera all game until they need to do some counter charging

Most enemy assault units come with an S8 powerfist in some form or another. S8 = dead Ogryn unit in 1-2 rounds of combat.

Ogryn aren't just bad, they make other units in your army worse just by being around.

BYE

true enough. like i said i wouldn't use them ever, they just can't be good enough at their purpose to be effective

**Catharsis**

What's the consensus on Conscript platoons? 80 points nets you 20 models that can claim objectives right? How would two 20 conscript platoons, at 160 points for both, fare in missions like take and hold, or for performing roadblock duty for enemy assaults?

**Comrade Barney**

80 points nets you 20 models that can claim objectives right?

With LD5? You want them to hold objectives? Unless you stick independent commissar with them (which is not the best way to spend 50 points) they'll run at first morale check.

roadblock duty for enemy assaults?

For this duty, you need at least 50 of them. And commissar. 250 points. Too expensive for my taste.

**Catharsis**

What about an allied inquisitor? 20 more points would be Ld8. So 100 points for a 21 model ld8 roadblock. If your opponent shoots it, he's not shooting your more useful guardsmen or whatever. If he doesn't shoot it, it'll tie up the first cc squad or two to reach your lines for a turn or two.

Could even give the Inq a little wargear. Would this be at all viable? Not trying to be pendantic, just curious as to whether this would be usable.

**Polonius**

People seem to find conscripts overwhelmingly decent. 20 of them are cheap, and can be easily babysat by a command squad. They hold up just as well in HtH and can rank up in COD.

On the downside, they cost a doctrine point and cost more then an HB/F squad.

They also cost points but don't add any shooting or any actual combat punch to your army.

**40kenthusiast**

I'd like to reply on the subject of Mortars. They pose one of the prime threats in the IG list...to the dang game length! I faced an army loaded down with Mortars once, and the guy's shooting phase was endless. It wasn't any more effective, it just took forever. Fire mortar. Measure scatter. Argue about where it ended up. Roll for partials. Roll to wound, enemy rolls saves, removes possibly a model. Roll scatter dice to determine where the next shot in the barrage flips to. Repeat forever and ever.

I'm sure that they are great vs. Orks or what have you...but I'm begging you, from all IG opponents out there, please, stick with weapons that roll to hit and wound. The Basilisk is fine, but please, no Mortars.