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fair enough, they really don't help against MEQ's

All three guns have their roles - LCs, ACs and HBs - and it's the reason I refer to them as the 'Holy Trinity' of Guard weapons.

Then you have the Disciples of the Holy Trinity:

Plasma Gun
Flamer
Meltagun
Multi-Laser
Battlecannon
Demolisher Cannon
Inferno Cannon
Earthshaker Cannon
Hunting Lance

Beyond that you don't need much else.

BYE

Bastirous666 wrote:fair enough, they really don't help against MEQ's

Which is what Battle Cannons are for.

MEQ work is done by Plasma Guns, Battle Cannons and things similar to those two. You can also do anti-MEQ work at a pinch with high strength high rate of fire weapons like Multi-Lasers, mainly because they wound on a 2+, so if you score enough wounds they're going to start failing saves eventually. Using Missile Launchers for MEQ work is a waste, as an ML will kill, at maximum, 3 marines a game. I'd rather, for the same points, take an Autocannon and get (statistically speaking) 1 hit every turn single with it.

Really when it comes down to it your weapon choices for Guard have to do one of two things:

1. Off-set the poor 50/50 nature of Ballistic Skill 3.
- OR -
2. Hit with so much force that they can reliably kill their target despite missing half the time.

Heavy Bolters and Autocannons fall into the first category along with Multi-Lasers and Ordnance weapons. Lascannons and Plasma Guns fall into the latter category along with Meltaguns and Hunting Lances. Missile Launchers, Grenade Launchers and Mortars fall into neither of these two categories, and as such serve no purpose in a Guard army.

EXECPT, and I'll always add this as a disclaimer, if your local metagame has you playing troop-heavy Marine players and lots of Necron armies, and by that I mean you will face these two types of army almost exclusivley, then go and add ML's to every damned squad (paired with Plasma Guns). And I don't just mean 'If you face lots of Marine players' - as we all face that. I mean if you face Marine/Chaos players who bring very few vehicles, if any, and fill the table with T4 Sv3+ types (like Necrons do). Then, and only then, does the ML come into its own.

BYE

very nicely said HBMC, i like whatever you need to say...its completely relevant

Hmm, whats better, more boyz or more toyz in a Gaurd army? Take the maximum of 360 squads but don't kit them out with anything or only take rougly 100+ and give them plasma of HW support?

Are you joking, Ratbarf? The only function of bodies is to keep heavies and specials in the game.

Exactly. If your squads don't have a heavy and special, then it's a waste of a squad.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:Exactly. If your squads don't have a heavy and special, then it's a waste of a squad.

BYE

If there were one ironclad rule for IG building, it would be this one.

Heh, I don't play guard only against them. And 360 men would have that tyranid quality of "How am I going to kill all that...)

Well if it's just guys with Lasguns, you haven't got anything to worry about as they can't kill you either.

BYE

Just kind of wondering.. when running your somewhat standard hybrid armour/infantry list, how do you deal with mobility issues? My list has 2 platoons of 4 squads each, then 5 tanks.

I have room to take the drop troops doctrine if needed.

That's just it. Drop Troops is there to give you mobility if you can't use your tanks for it.

Sentinels work at a pinch as well.

BYE

Polonius wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Exactly. If your squads don't have a heavy and special, then it's a waste of a squad.

BYE

If there were one ironclad rule for IG building, it would be this one.

I would not even class that asa solid rule. even when we are talking only about ordinary troops squads.

If points are tight you can have squads with a lascannon and no special weapon. Good if you know the enemy likes heavy tanks, if you know your squad is going to be shoot Av14 all day, it doesnt need a plasma gun.

Remnant squads are worthwhile, six men and a flamer/melta gun. throw them forward for suicide shooting or as a speed brake on enemy assault units.

Remnant units are not points-efficient. Command Sections and Veterans are always a better choice.

BYE

For the bulk squads of my army should I go AC/PG or HB/PG? Is the AutoCannon worth the extra points?

Yes. In every way yes.

It is the single most consistant weapon you can get for the Guard. It hits 50% of the time, meaning that with two shots a turn you'll hit every turn. It is better at killing AV10, AV11 and AV12 vehicles than the Missile Launcher, and equal against AV13.

It mixes with the Plasma Guns S7 as well.

Autocannon + Plasma Gun = Good
Heavy Bolter + Plasma Gun = Waste. Take HB/Flamer squads instead.

BYE

How about deep strike special weapons squads like:
2 Melta Guns
1 Demo Charge
for 75 Points total?

It seems like it would be better to take a 3 Melta Gun, 5 Man Hardened Veteran Squad for the same 75 Points but that pie plate sounds tempting.

Ideas?

Different roles.

The Special Weapon Squad is counter-charge - find a big squad of enemy Marines or Terminators and lob it at them, gut the unit, and then mop up the rest. For that job, bring Flamers not Meltaguns.

If you want Deep Striking anti-tank, then it's H-Vets all the way. 3 Plasmas or 3 Meltas.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Special Weapon Squad is counter-charge - find a big squad of enemy Marines or Terminators and lob it at them, gut the unit, and then mop up the rest. For that job, bring Flamers not Meltaguns.

I'd disagree here. I think most of the time, the demo charge is used with drop troops. Primarily to hit marines and other hard targets (Nurgle, DC, etc). If you bring flamers, you either shoot them first and take targets away from the blast, or shoot them at the 1-2 models that survive the blast which is inefficient. I think the meltaguns (or nothing) are better buys.

Unless you're planning on this doubling as some sort of anti-horde support as well. It's not as effective against hordes, but if that's a primary concern, it might be worth bringing flamers. This makes it more of a general purpose unit, though, and the incresed cost will reflect that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Different roles.

The Special Weapon Squad is counter-charge - find a big squad of enemy Marines or Terminators and lob it at them, gut the unit, and then mop up the rest. For that job, bring Flamers not Meltaguns.

If you want Deep Striking anti-tank, then it's H-Vets all the way. 3 Plasmas or 3 Meltas.

BYE

I agree with Grimaldi. When deepstriking Demo Charges, my squad often lands between 8-12 inches away from an opponent due to scatter. If all it has is Demo Charge+Flamer, then it gets only 6 lasgun shots (woo hoo). Even if you land ~7 inches away, those flamers aren't going to tag that many opponents. If the squad has 2 meltas, then even at 12" scatter it should get 1 (possibly 2) melta hits as well. Against heavy infantry, each of those melta hits is an almost certain kill. Also, if you scatter really badly, you might end up within 12" of an enemy vehicle where a single melta hit could easily make back the points of the squad.

I use Battle Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Inferno Cannons and lasguns for light infantry work. I want my dropping special weapons squads to be able to take out Terminators and tanks.

Every time I've dropped a flamer/DC unit, I've wished I'd put meltas in them instead. Except for the times that they land right on the enemy and die

Strangelooper wrote:I agree with Grimaldi. When deepstriking Demo Charges, my squad often lands between 8-12 inches away from an opponent due to scatter. If all it has is Demo Charge+Flamer, then it gets only 6 lasgun shots (woo hoo). Even if you land ~7 inches away, those flamers aren't going to tag that many opponents. If the squad has 2 meltas, then even at 12" scatter it should get 1 (possibly 2) melta hits as well. Against heavy infantry, each of those melta hits is an almost certain kill. Also, if you scatter really badly, you might end up within 12" of an enemy vehicle where a single melta hit could easily make back the points of the squad.

Which is why I don't deep strike them. Why would you Deep Strike a unit that has a 6" range gun?

As I said, they're counter-charge. That's what Special Weapon Squads do.

And you'll get 1 hit with the Meltaguns. Not worth 30 points.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Which is why I don't deep strike them. Why would you Deep Strike a unit that has a 6" range gun?

As I said, they're counter-charge. That's what Special Weapon Squads do.

And you'll get 1 hit with the Meltaguns. Not worth 30 points.

BYE

Where do you hide them, such that they can get into 6" demo-charge range of an enemy that isn't already in close combat with your line squads? And if you don't hide them, why don't they get evaporated by enemy fire?

The prime hiding spots in my lines (behind a forest and/or behind a Leman Russ) are occupied by the CHQ and my roughriders. Any time that I've not dropped my special weapons squads (ie when I've rolled "alpha" for mission level), they've been primary targets for shooting. Target priority not withstanding.

Tell me your secret!

Re points: 30 points is approximately the cost of a Terminator, so I would consider that "making its points back". Any vehicle is going to be worth more than that - even tearing a main weapon off or immobilizing is worth 30 points, I would think.

I love this post. DOnt have time to elaborate more on it. I agree with about 90% of this. lol will post later.

IG Commandments, because some of our brother generals don't get it yet.

1) Thou Shalt not waste money on wargear.: Abosultely true, a commandment that is learned thru experience as nobody listens.

2) Thou Shalt not mix weapons in Heavy Weapon Squads.: True again; I don't know that anyone does this. Its just dumb to do,

3) Thou Shalt not spend more than 75 points on each Hardened Veteran Sqd. Usually true, however a plasma pistol is not too bad. 85 somtimes is ok. You mentioned this though

4) Thou Shalt use complimentary Heavy/special weapons. (Don't mix 48" and 12" range weapons within a single Infantry Squad): Nobody ever listens, Commandment 4 is also true.

5) Thou Shalt not use only 1 tank. True, except maybe a basilisk which you mentioned.

6) Thou Shalt not use mortars EVER and grenade launchers sometimes...maybe...: LOL, could not agree more.

7) Thou Shalt not forget your troopers are only BS3/ 5+sv. LMAO, yes very true

8) Thou Shalt not waste a doctrine point to change this. LMAOA, even truer

9) Thou Shalt not be cheap and attempt to do with 3 missile launchers, what should be done with 3 las-cannons: yes, ML dont kill termies, they are actually the least efficient at it.

10) Thou Shalt not post army lists with broken Commandments and ask if it's a "good list". Highly approve


LOL, almost everything in here are things that I have been saying for ages. HBMC and I seem to have similar outlooks on IG.

Also, I would say a HB, Gl and storm bolter combo (storm bolter not TOO keen on) would be better than a HB flamer squad. You do NOT want to be close enough to use the flamer. If you are you want to assault, so the HB would be useless.

Have you guys agreed on a final list yet? Would be cool to
see it up on the site.

i don't really like the idea of ground rules for all guard to use. i have seen so many variations with such diverse unit choices that i think no one option is ever best. to me this is just for those who want to do the cookie cutter IG list and have no personality

There shouldn't be ground rules on what to take (except Iron Discipline - that's mandatory), but more a list of things that you should never take, like, say:

1. 90% of the Doctrines.
2. Ratlings.
3. Sanctioned Psykers.
4. Tech-Priest Enginseers.
5. Commissars (90% of the time).
6. Storm Troopers (80% of the time Vets are better).
7. Did I mention the Doctrines?
8. Grenade Launchers. Ever. 2 points more gets you S7 AP2.
9. Missile Launchers. Ever. Unless your local meta-game has you facing hordes of Necrons and footslogging Marines endlessly.
10. Mortars. Ever.

And a few other odds and ends. Abiding by these will still allow for a variety of lists, from Armoured Company, to MechInf, to standard mixed Guard, to All-Infantry Guard.

BYE

@HBMC I agree with all but #2 i have had ratlings kill daemon princes before. Ratlings can be good if you use then correctly. Which is by NOT infiltrating them. At least not near enemy lines. They are ok. personally i stopped running them but I have been thinking of a way to put them back in.

also, what is a cookie cutter IG?